Completed Relic/Mythic weapons list

[Limlight]

wooooshed max they completely ignored you lol

[Therin]

Not on HNMs. Failure's statements were all true for basic play, but if you're tanking Khimaira, Tiamat, Dark Ixion, etc. with SAM or WAR then either you're retarded or you know something important that we don't.

Hint: It's not the latter.

[Taint]

I have no idea why any of failures statements are even remotely surprising, tanking via damage alone is extremely common. He never never implied war or sam is a top tier tank, just as viable as a drk tank.

Then Max went on to explain why SAM and WAR do not have as many hate producing and holding options.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Did you just pick three end-game mobs out of a hat?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Then Max went on to explain why SAM and WAR do not have as many hate producing and holding options.

They've got one big hate-holding option, its called cumulative enmity.

[Therin]

Did you just pick three end-game mobs out of a hat?

I picked three of the most camped ones. The etc. was there to imply that my statement is true in almost every case. There are no HNMs that WAR or SAM can tank as well as a DRK, unless you still consider Fafnir an HNM.

[homerun]

Then Max went on to explain why SAM and WAR do not have as many hate producing and holding options.

The context of the argument is tanking things you can do damage to (obviously). the argument is since war and sam can do more damage than drk they are just as if not more viable for tanking. Make sense now?

[Tsuko_Asura]

I picked three of the most camped ones. The etc. was there to imply that my statement is true in almost every case. There are no HNMs that WAR or SAM can tank as well as a DRK, unless you still consider Fafnir an HNM.

You're arguing with the wrong person. I'm not suggesting that either of them are better thanks than anyone, I'm just saying that its idiotic to suggest that they're not practical options.

[Kirschy]

Isn't that true for the merit PT part of his statement too, which concludes that "Kclub the best DRK weapon."


Any half decent sam or war should easily be able to "cap and keep hate", and I'd be shocked if a drk could even come close to either job on damage. And other jobs have other tools to reup shadows (Third Eye is for all intents and purposes a guaranteed shield block) and better -PDT gear available.

I'm probably one of the few Relic DRKs who don't think Apoc is some all-powerful relic. But I still disagree with your statements.

I'm going to assume you were taking a small jab at Apoc DRK by saying other jobs outclass it for merits. In case you weren't, I think Apoc DRK is easily a top parser for merit, and it offers a huge relief on MP which helps the party as whole in a unique way. I'm almost always the top parser in my merit parties, even when facing against other relics. The marginal differences between a Relic DRK and other relic jobs are so small, they are indisintuishable in practice due to slight differences in player skill.

As for HNMs, any HNM you can kill in a TP-Burn/Merit style setting is perfect for ApocDRK. For HNMs where thats not an option, I completely agree that DRK is almost always a bad choice.

In regards to SAM or WAR keeping hate, Taint was just talking about the few HNMs where TPing the mob isn't feasible or produces slow enmity gain. It's a well known fact that melee damage/WS is the best way to gain CE/VE and keep hate capped, but sometimes it's just not possible. An example I see often is Proto-Omega. My LS does Omega in a small group, so other people can be farming chips at the same time. Omega starts off on all fours and takes reduced physical damage which makes tanking by pure damage very difficult. A few spells and JA go a long way in holding Omega still while the BLM throws on some nukes, and other melees gain hate through damage. (Don't need to waste your time with a PLD when a DRK can handle the same job with better damage output.) It also helps to have those spells/JA when hate reset occurs. There's other random situations where this method of hate gain is useful. Nervermolt, Flying Wyrms, Aspi come to mind. I'm sure if I thought about it I could come up with more. The point wasn't that it makes DRKs super useful. (At least I hope that wasn't that point!) The point is just that DRKs have alternate forms of hate tools can situationally be helpful.

I don't know where you get the idea that DRK can't come close to a WAR or SAM in damage on end game activities, but I can tell you for sure that's not true. A well geared/played DRK is going to have great output.

[Therin]

You're arguing with the wrong person. I'm not suggesting that either of them are better thanks than anyone, I'm just saying that its idiotic to suggest that they're not practical options.

WAR or SAM AREN'T practical options because you'd have to cherry pick your mobs in order to find one that they can actually reasonably tank. Yes, they can tank some, but they are the exception and not the rule. DRK/NIN can tank anything since it doesn't have to draw weapons to cap hate. That's the distinction that we're trying to make here.

*EDIT* As a sidenote Kirschy I'm interested to hear your thoughts on Ragnarok. I'm certain that the relic isn't as bad as people make it out to be. That being said I think it's obvious that Apoc is an overall better weapon due to the self-healing and increased Haste attributes but I still think that Ragnarok should be considered a respectable choice from a pure damage standpoint, albeit not one which makes quite as much economical sense as the Apoc. What do you think?

[Max™]

WAR or SAM AREN'T practical options because you'd have to cherry pick your mobs in order to find one that they can actually reasonably tank. Yes, they can tank some, but they are the exception and not the rule. DRK/NIN can tank anything since it doesn't have to draw weapons to cap hate. That's the distinction that we're trying to make here.

Ding!

Enough derail though, this should be known by now.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Did I mention you're arguing with the wrong person? Because you're arguing with the wrong person. Stop telling me what DRK can tank better than others. I'm already aware.

Warrior and samurai can tank more things than they can't. They're plenty practical.

[homerun]

Someone posts something about drk DD tanking.

Failure responds that in this situation war or sam could fill that roll since they do more damage than drk.

People calls failure stupid because war and sam aren't viable for fights you can't deal damage in to tank properly in.

what

[homerun]

(Don't need to waste your time with a PLD when a DRK can handle the same job with better damage output.)

Unrelated to what you posted about but i found pld to be very good damage on omega, partly because you can gain tp really fast on him as well as atonement working in every phase (coupled with his low hp total).

[Kirschy]

*EDIT* As a sidenote Kirschy I'm interested to hear your thoughts on Ragnarok. I'm certain that the relic isn't as bad as people make it out to be. That being said I think it's obvious that Apoc is an overall better weapon due to the self-healing and increased Haste attributes but I still think that Ragnarok should be considered a respectable choice from a pure damage standpoint, albeit not one which makes quite as much economical sense as the Apoc. What do you think?

I think the game has just changed a lot from when the GSD was first released. The game has shifted away from SA/TA WS and Skillchains for majority of events. TP adjustments, 2H changes, and Hasso/Seigan made /SAM /w x-hit builds easier and effective to use. Not to mention the release of better GSDs overtime. I think anytime a Relic GSD DRK would do well, a SAM would outclass it in everyway.

I do a few events with a Ragnarok DRK, they always parse a high ~24% crit rate, but it doesn't seem to make up for the other shortcomings on the GSD. I also wouldn't be suprised if Scrouge suffered the similar lack of Attack bonus as Cata/Kaiten. I don't have a high opinion of the GSD, but my experiences with the Rag are limited compared to other relics~

[Raen Ryong]

Failure responds that in this situation war or sam could fill that roll since they do more damage than drk.

The difference, if any is very minor since if the mob is debuffed/you are buffed to the point where DD tanking becomes a viable source of enmity generation, SAM has already lost its main advantage (that being mobs where you are not buffed compared to their def/eva)... not to say SAM will be weak, but when SAM doesn't have that advantage, the three jobs are very close.

[Max™]

Damage will get you up on the CE list, but if you figured out how to crap out WSes at will to make sure any CE you lose is replenished immediately, and how to make sure that anyone who isn't losing shadows/being hit isn't outdoing you on CE production...

WHILE spamming VE.

It isn't the most reliable tanking strategy on really difficult shit, and it is far more limited than jobs that have hate faucets, and especially jobs that can pump damage AND pump hate at will (Pld + Drk), or pump hate while not losing any (Nin + Rdm).

War and Sam can pump damage, and the hate that comes with that, and that is it. That is the sum of their actual hate generating ability, as again, voke is not really a tool, it's a distraction, or a back up at best if you're riding the CE hate line and abusing high enmity vokes to keep VE at or near cap.

Put a War and a Drk on the same mob, let em both tank with damage, they'll bounce hate easily.

Tell the Drk to put their weapon away and actively tank through indirect hate tools, and they'll EASILY pull it off the War and keep it at will... this is the difference I'm talking about, make a new thread or something geez.

[Antithesis]

Honestly, SE should not have introduced Great Sword if this was going to be the outcome. It really seems like they have all but forgotten about it. A new, multi-hit weapon skill would defiantly help Great Sword but... I don't know what exactly it will need to compete with Scythes.

[Max™]

Insurgency should have been a 3 hit crit TP ws for Great Sword, not Scythe.

There, I just fixed Gswrd.

[Antithesis]

Pretty sure there is a difference between improve and fix.