Completed Relic/Mythic weapons list

[Max™]

Naglering/Subduer/Rose Strap/Aurum shit/etc, Ground Strike, Spinning Slash, and a 3 hit crit TP 50% Str mod ws would be pretty fuckin sweet, like if great axe had steel cyclone/raging rush/and damn near tachi: gekko.

Not posting til there are more relic shots to bitch about.

[Starr]

I picked three of the most camped ones. The etc. was there to imply that my statement is true in almost every case. There are no HNMs that WAR or SAM can tank as well as a DRK, unless you still consider Fafnir an HNM.

You are discounting Sarameya as a HNM? (don't be a retard and say "burn or nothing"). Also though SAM could tank Khim, didn't read the discussion but not like main tank but if they get hate they could survive allright. Also thought SAM and WAR can tank Hydra fine?

[Therin]

I have a feeling they intended Great Sword to be a playtoy for PLD and another one of the myriad of weapons WAR could use. But, SE unknowingly made it a fantastic weapon for DRK back when SATA WS was the thing to do. Now, post-two-handed buff, it sucks again and is back to playtoy status.

You are discounting Sarameya as a HNM? (don't be a retard and say "burn or nothing"). Also though SAM could tank Khim, didn't read the discussion but not like main tank but if they get hate they could survive allright. Also thought SAM and WAR can tank Hydra fine?

1) Sarameya isn't an HNM by any definiton.
2) Sarameya should die in 30 seconds anyway.
3) WAR is a good tank for Hydra because they can spam crit-based weaponskills and drop heads, which is the most important part of the fight anyway. But yes, WAR is good for Hydra. I haven't tried or heard of people using SAM on it, but I can't see how it would be any good since you need critical damage to keep Hydra from going nuts on you.

[Starr]

Not a HNM just a higher level mob that classes as Impossible to Gauge, ok bro. It's a HNM moreso than shit like Fafnir IMO, straight tanked it is harder and definately harder than small man. Of course you can melee burn it but I think if you were like 12 people SAM can tank it well (better than DRK if that was the discussion).

[Tsuko_Asura]

Starr, you have such a way with words.

[Therin]

You've got a very odd definition of HNM if you'll call Sarameya one. If that's the case, any linkshell that does Sky/Sea/ZNM is an HNM LS, and most people don't classify them as such. When people say "X job can do Y on HNMs" they're talking about Nidhogg/KB/Aspid, Sandworm/Ixion, Cerberus/Khimaira/Hydra, Tiamat/Jorm/Vrtra and nothing else. I personally don't consider Fafnir/Behemoth/Adamantoise as HNMs but some still do I guess.

[Drace]

(RE: Ragnorak) I'm certain that the relic isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

Copy/Pasting this comparison I did in another thread, major emphasis on the fact that Rag is as bad as people make it out to be in comparison to non relic GS option.

To compare pretty standard 6hit Naglering vs. 7hit Rag: (assuming all other gear is the same outside of STP adjustments)
23 STP for Naglering 6hit: /SAM 15, Rajas 5, Rose Strap 4
30 STP for Ragnarok 7hit: /SAM 15, Rajas 5, Rose Strap 4, Aurum Cuirass 7

Which pretty much boils down to dropping E. Body for Rag Build - losing 2 STR, 2 DEX, 15 ACC by having to use Aurum.
Naglering Advantage: 6 Hit Build, 21-22 extra ATT, 2 extra STR, 0/+1 ACC, 2 extra DEX
Ragnarok Advantage: 1 Base Dmg, 2.5 Proc, x% extra crit hits.

So you've pretty much just paid ~180-200M for 2.5 Procs and some extra crit hits while getting to 100 TP slower and doing less WS dmg overall.

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[Therin]

Copy/Pasting this comparison I did in another thread, major emphasis on the fact that Rag is as bad as people make it out to be in comparison to non relic GS option.

Right, I understand all of that, but assuming your DRK is spamming Scourge (I'll admit I haven't seen it in action to see how bad the WS actually is) you're looking at +~20% Critical Hit Rate (10% from the sword and 10% from the aftermath) and faster hits overall.

[Drace]

I've only seen it in action by a couple of very underwhelming DRK's but I would say Scourge isn't going to compare well dmg wise (especially on HNM), so the extra crit hits are just going to be competing to make up ground in between more WS's (lower delay, but its still a 7hit Rag vs 6hit Naglering build) and higher DMG WS's from Naglering (some of that ground will still be eaten up by the 20+ ATT advantage per swing Naglering has too).

As far as non mage relics go, I don't think there is anything comparable to the side grade/ down grade reality of Rag vs. Other GS's

[Starr]

Starr, you have such a way with words.

wat, why?

Also see where you're coming from Therin, I guess it doesn't really matter, but if you count SW I think a SAM could tank at least Guivre well and possibly Serket?

If you wanna 12 man Sarameya (not enough to burn?) then it would be as difficult/harder than SW Guivre or Serket with 12 wouldn't it?

[Diomer]

I'm probably one of the few Relic DRKs who don't think Apoc is some all-powerful relic. But I still disagree with your statements.

I'm going to assume you were taking a small jab at Apoc DRK by saying other jobs outclass it for merits. In case you weren't, I think Apoc DRK is easily a top parser for merit, and it offers a huge relief on MP which helps the party as whole in a unique way. I'm almost always the top parser in my merit parties, even when facing against other relics. The marginal differences between a Relic DRK and other relic jobs are so small, they are indisintuishable in practice due to slight differences in player skill.

As for HNMs, any HNM you can kill in a TP-Burn/Merit style setting is perfect for ApocDRK. For HNMs where thats not an option, I completely agree that DRK is almost always a bad choice.

In regards to SAM or WAR keeping hate, Taint was just talking about the few HNMs where TPing the mob isn't feasible or produces slow enmity gain. It's a well known fact that melee damage/WS is the best way to gain CE/VE and keep hate capped, but sometimes it's just not possible. An example I see often is Proto-Omega. My LS does Omega in a small group, so other people can be farming chips at the same time. Omega starts off on all fours and takes reduced physical damage which makes tanking by pure damage very difficult. A few spells and JA go a long way in holding Omega still while the BLM throws on some nukes, and other melees gain hate through damage. (Don't need to waste your time with a PLD when a DRK can handle the same job with better damage output.) It also helps to have those spells/JA when hate reset occurs. There's other random situations where this method of hate gain is useful. Nervermolt, Flying Wyrms, Aspi come to mind. I'm sure if I thought about it I could come up with more. The point wasn't that it makes DRKs super useful. (At least I hope that wasn't that point!) The point is just that DRKs have alternate forms of hate tools can situationally be helpful.

I don't know where you get the idea that DRK can't come close to a WAR or SAM in damage on end game activities, but I can tell you for sure that's not true. A well geared/played DRK is going to have great output.

I agree for the most part with everything here but you can't forget the other things DRKs bring to the table (And I know you made brief mention to them but they deserve more ) - Stun and Absorb TP. Though it's very hard to land Abs-TP on HNMs like Cerb/Khim which shouldn't be a surprise, it worked well on the Serket + Lambton Sandworms I've done as DRK and prevents a LOT of TP moves if the DRK has a good DS set and uses it at the right times. Stun also has its obvious benefits. These other elements are probably the reason why I enjoy DRK over the other melee jobs and I'd definately agree that a well-geared DRK will hold their own against a WAR or SAM purely in damage as well.

[Kirschy]

I agree for the most part with everything here but you can't forget the other things DRKs bring to the table (And I know you made brief mention to them but they deserve more ) - Stun and Absorb TP. Though it's very hard to land Abs-TP on HNMs like Cerb/Khim which shouldn't be a surprise, it worked well on the Serket + Lambton Sandworms I've done as DRK and prevents a LOT of TP moves if the DRK has a good DS set and uses it at the right times. Stun also has its obvious benefits. These other elements are probably the reason why I enjoy DRK over the other melee jobs and I'd definately agree that a well-geared DRK will hold their own against a WAR or SAM purely in damage as well.

I agree DRK brings other stuff to a battle that I didn't mention, but I don't think I'd ever use DRK in the Serket/HQ SW scenarios. While I'm sure it can work, a few SAMs doing SA/TA WS/SC + MB seem to be the easiest and most efficent wins for those mobs. (Our last SW-Serket was like 5 minutes.) I'd rather play SAM or BLM which are better DD options for fights like those.

[Taint]

I agree DRK brings other stuff to a battle that I didn't mention, but I don't think I'd ever use DRK in the Serket/HQ SW scenarios. While I'm sure it can work, a few SAMs doing SA/TA WS/SC + MB seem to be the easiest and most efficent wins for those mobs. (Our last SW-Serket was like 5 minutes.) I'd rather play SAM or BLM which are better DD options for fights like those.

Ummm DRK can MB too

[Kipling]

Don't forget af2 body, 10 mab dawgs.

[Omnipotent]

wat, why?

Also see where you're coming from Therin, I guess it doesn't really matter, but if you count SW I think a SAM could tank at least Guivre well and possibly Serket?

If you wanna 12 man Sarameya (not enough to burn?) then it would be as difficult/harder than SW Guivre or Serket with 12 wouldn't it?

Hoping you are talking about the NQ Serket and Guivre because no SAM can tank Serket or Guivre from SW. If they can, fraps it.

[Kipling]

Hoping you are talking about the NQ Serket and Guivre because no SAM can tank Serket or Guivre from SW. If they can, fraps it.

Is it tanking if you barely survive on third eye for 20-30 seconds?

[Jeryhn]

Don't forget af2 body, 10 mab dawgs.

If only MAB was good for Drain. ;;

[Starr]

Hoping you are talking about the NQ Serket and Guivre because no SAM can tank Serket or Guivre from SW. If they can, fraps it.

fo sho melee can tank guivre SW (merit pt melee burn it til it runs is fine) Serket idk hence the question mark.

[Virg]

fo sho melee can tank guivre SW (merit pt melee burn it til it runs is fine) Serket idk hence the question mark.

Guivre if you pull it easy mode yes. If you pull it hard mode no. And SAM or WAR tanking Serket? Never.

[Starr]

What's easy mode?