Completed Relic/Mythic weapons list

[The_OG_Nelta]

oh hahahhaa, own personal COR. "I GET HIT SO I GET TP! THAT WAY I CAN KEEP MY 6HIT!"

[Leroy]

I actually did make a killing selling those Yovra Organs, 500k a pop. Divided by 3 people, not bad, pulled in about 3-4 people a day for 1-3 organs each.

Math still incoming.

[Thorny]

Divided by 3 people

Seriously? You accused me of being unable to kill it when you bring 3? I can dualbox it in my sleep without even logging onto my main.. though I still call bullshit on getting 3-4 people a day stupid enough to pay 500k for a Yovra Organ.

Good job ignoring every relevant point I made and responding to the sarcastic comment though.

[Masamune]

Mmmm on topic of offhanding Blau vs. X with Mandau, shouldnot a manday thf use exclusively MercyStroke?
Saying this because in that case, MC increases dramatically crit rates, thus increasing in same amount the efficiency of X over Blau.

Cookie for me ?

EDIT: also both Thorny and Leroy calculations are way too simplified, you forgot quite other factors that might influence the comparison.

[Thorny]

EDIT: also both Thorny and Leroy calculations are way too simplified, you forgot quite other factors that might influence the comparison.

I'm in no way attempting to represent the entire situation, just disproving his attempt to state blau's attack negates half of x's bonus. I realize there is quite a bit involved in making a true comparison between 2 weapons and the vast amount of situations makes it hard to assert that one is universally better than another. Regardless, it's very clear that in low pdif situations X's is going to win as the ratio of total crit damage:total noncrit damage is drastically increased as pdif drops for THF.

[Masamune]

I'm in no way attempting to represent the entire situation, just disproving his attempt to state blau's attack negates half of x's bonus. I realize there is quite a bit involved in making a true comparison between 2 weapons and the vast amount of situations makes it hard to assert that one is universally better than another. Regardless, it's very clear that in low pdif situations X's is going to win as the ratio of total crit damage:total noncrit damage is drastically increased as pdif drops for THF.

yes but you forgetting that in low pDIF situations, mob's agi is also higher, making crits rate lower... and since X "efficiency" is based almost entirely on crits when they occur,
so in my opinion (i didnot make the actual calculations so not sure) but in theory i'd say the difference margin between the Blau and X should be lower than in high pDIF situation, if not neglectable.


... unless you add MercyStroke's increased crit rate into the picture

[Leroy]

The Attack on Blau didn't half the bonus of X's you fucktard, the fact that MC is a two-hit WS and only the first gets the 10% bonus, paired with the attack of Blau, on 2-6(?) hits, is what cut the bonus of X's. 2100 instead of 2200 was just thrown out as a simplified example.

Still, math incoming as to why Mandau/Blau is better than Mandau/X's.

[Thorny]

yes but you forgetting that in low pDIF situations, mob's agi is also higher, making crits rate lower... and since X "efficiency" is based almost entirely on crits when they occur,
so in my opinion (i didnot make the actual calculations so not sure) but in theory i'd say the difference margin between the Blau and X should be lower than in high pDIF situation, if not neglectable.


... unless you add MercyStroke's increased crit rate into the picture

In low pdif situations, SA and TA compose a much higher portion of your damage, and they're always critical hits. On Jailer of Love for example, without significant buffs pretty much any hit that ISN'T SA or TA will be for 0.

The Attack on Blau didn't half the bonus of X's you fucktard, the fact that MC is a two-hit WS and only the first gets the 10% bonus, paired with the attack of Blau, on 2-6(?) hits, is what cut the bonus of X's. 2100 instead of 2200 was just thrown out as a simplified example.

Putting exact numbers in a vague example, awesome. You act as if I don't know what attack does.

Still, math incoming as to why Mandau/Blau is better than Mandau/X's.

Sure, just make sure to do it in a manner that shows it applies to high end mobs as well. I did acknowledge more than a page ago that Mandau/Blau could beat Mandau/X's on weak mobs.

[Anomander]

I'm glad everyone approves of getting SAM roll instead of chaos or corsair's when you're present on DRK.

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking. I stopped reading his posts as soon as he mentioned it.

[Masamune]

mmm i just tried 2 builds with only difference between being offhand weapon, in my excel tool, to obtain basically 1.8%-3.4% more DPS for ............ the Blau :s

Calculated on Colibri73, Gcoli82 and AuraStatue83, with added +5% crit rate on TP phase from MercyStroke, through 1hr50 timeframe. Looks like the added critrate from Mercy isnot enough to make /X on par or trumps /blau. Still gotta consider maybe the number of SAs/Tas done within that timeframe maybe off.

Let's see Leroy's math (hoping he don't neglect too much parameters)

[Thorny]

mmm i just tried 2 builds with only difference between being offhand weapon, in my excel tool, to obtain basically 1.8%-3.4% more DPS for ............ the Blau :s

Calculated on Colibri73, Gcoli82 and AuraStatue83, with added +5% crit rate on TP phase from MercyStroke, through 1hr50 timeframe. Looks like the added critrate from Mercy isnot enough to make /X on par or trumps /blau. Still gotta consider maybe the number of SAs/Tas done within that timeframe maybe off.

Let's see Leroy's math (hoping he don't neglect too much parameters)

I have not tried to argue for X's on birds, I'm arguing on any larger mob the fact that your damage is skewed drastically away from DoT and toward SA/TA will push X's ahead(and by a rather significant margin the higher level the mob gets). If you own a mandau, there is no reason not to get both and use them appropriately.

[pchan]

Maybe a mandau THF could post his critical hit rate from a parse (since it would include SA/TA) which would give the minimum increase in damage provided by blau. After that estimate when SA or TA can be used on mercy stroke.

[Leroy]

I agree that X's performs better on something where you're Damage is so low it's skewed in favor of X's with SA/TA beating DoT, but at that point, you have to ask, why the hell aren't you /WAR? Just seems like it's pointless since you can't offhand a dagger /WAR and doinitrite. That's why when I say Blau beat X's, I'm talking about situations where /NIN doesn't completely suck goat dick.

Quick question, is the aftermath of Mercy Stroke really +25% crit rate? What is a good crit rate for Mandau users. I tried 50% and Blau still won out (negligibly) in terms of DoT.

[Thorny]

I agree that X's performs better on something where you're Damage is so low it's skewed in favor of X's with SA/TA beating DoT, but at that point, you have to ask, why the hell aren't you /WAR? Just seems like it's pointless since you can't offhand a dagger /WAR and doinitrite. That's why when I say Blau beat X's, I'm talking about situations where /NIN doesn't completely suck goat dick.

It's situational, a 10% bonus to SA and TA is still going to be comparable to berserk before looking at the benefits gained by DW delay. 10-90 TP:WS is not unreasonable on somet hings THF is required to be present at for TH(odin, jailer of love for example), if you want to contribute damage your most efficient approach is to build for SA and TA. 15% attack over time will not beat out 10% damage from SA and TA on JoL, period. Really, people love to invalidate fancy gear(go look at my in-depth post in drop thread on why rune chopper war can outparse apocalypse) because it saves them a lot of effort in obtaining said gear. I wouldn't call a mandau gimp for not owning an X's knife, but I certainly wouldn't call X's worthless just because you have a mandau.

[Byrthnoth]

Less stupid more relics~!

[Leroy]

Ok, so I'm gonna go with a Blusterer's stats (346def/77vit/lvl83) because I know them off the top of my head, and it'll simplify things with a 0fSTR.

Mithra THF/NIN, Haste, March x2, Minuet x2, Pizza, and 20% haste in gear.

Mandau
Offhand
Bomblet
W.Turban
Love Torque
Suppa
Brutal
Mirke(10acc/3%DW augments)
Dusk+1
Toreador's
Rajas
Cuchulain's
Speed Belt
Skadi legs
Homam feet.

Going to ignore ACC, it'd be capped on this particular mob anyway iirc.


Mandau/Blau: 555atk/346 - 0.400 = 1.204

Delay: ((176+178)*0.77)*0.45 = 122



Mandau/X's: 539atk/346 - 0.400 = 1.157

Delay: ((176+201)*0.77)*0.45 = 130



For tping, we'll use the delay of 1000 X's rounds.

Mandau/Blau: 1065 rounds

Mandau/X's: 1000 rounds



Figure out the number of swings with 5% DA and 10% TA (counting DA first)

Mandau/Blau: 2640 (1320 each hand)

Mandau/X's: 2480 (1240 each hand)


We'll go with a 50% crit rate, all I've heard about Mandau aftermath is that it gives +25% crit rate so I'll go with 50% total to be safe. Feel free to let me know the real aftermath effect if it's off. Also, going with a 5% activation rate on triple damage proc. Trying to be simple.

Mandau/Blau:

Mandau:
(39*1.204)*627 = 28842
((39*1.204)*3)*33 = 4185
(39*2.204)*627 = 53295
((39*2.204)*3)*33 = 8415
Blau:
(33*1.204)*660 = 25740
(33*2.204)*660 = 47520
Total:
168366


Mandau/X's:

Mandau:
(39*1.157)*589 = 26505
((39*1.157)*3)*31 = 4185
(39*2.157*1.1)*589 = 54188
((39*2.157*1.1)*3)*31 = 8556
X's:
(34*1.157)*620 = 24180
(34*2.157*1.1)*620 = 49600
Total:
167214


Now, I know this is a very small difference, but to be safe I was figuring on 50% crit rate, which I doubt it is, and it was still outdone.

As for WSs, Blau offhand does about 6.5% more WSs over time than X's (Even more if ACC isn't capped), and please note that X's does not boost MS by a static 10%, this is because MS is a 2hit WS when dual wielding and the second hit, and any after, does not get a 10% bonus on it as it cannot crit. You're also not going to SA/TA every single MS because of your TP rate and timers syncing up.

I'd go into more detail about the WSs or go back and actually remember to put in the .95 hit rate cap in (Shouldn't matter too much), but my fucking wife just woke up and hit me for still being in here.

Edit: I know X's is better for HNM, I admit that, but for those types, I still say /WAR is the better option, and am comparing them on merit mobs tougher than lolibri.

[Thorny]

Edit: I know X's is better for HNM, I admit that, but for those types, I still say /WAR is the better option, and am comparing them on merit mobs tougher than lolibri.

nobody cares because nobody denied it was a better combo for merit mobs

[Masamune]

I have not tried to argue for X's on birds, I'm arguing on any larger mob the fact that your damage is skewed drastically away from DoT and toward SA/TA will push X's ahead(and by a rather significant margin the higher level the mob gets). If you own a mandau, there is no reason not to get both and use them appropriately.

Both blau and X are daggers, so both will benefit from same dmg skew on birds, so that's not a criteria for comparison criticism. Also, looks like you didnot notice i said also Aura Statue for "larger mob" you mentioned, and i still got an advantage on /blau :s

In other words, i don't see which situation would put /X ahead of /blau, at least in terms of calculations. The 2 builds i used are attached in following images, maybe they arenot appropriate ?

Also, if you can tell me a situation conditions to try, i'll be happy to check what kind of results i obtain; and if any results seems weird, feel free to tell ^^

warning: have to note that WSs are all unstacked, since all SAs/Tas are used during TPing non-stop. I didnot implement yet number of SAs/TAs between TPing/WSing. As mentioned in earlier post, that's not really a 100dmg difference in WSs that will make a "drastic margin" between considered weapons ?

[Argettio]

looks like you didnot notice i said also Aura Statue for "larger mob" you mentioned, and i still got an advantage on /blau :s

Aura statue is really a hard mob.

Thorny's point is, in any situation where a THF's melee swings do single digit damage (taking it to the extreme), Mandau + X's is a better combo.

And those situations DO exist.

[Masamune]

Scourge aftermath has been reported between 5-10% enhanced critrate, MercyStroke has been reported more closer to 5%, i don't see where di you read a 25% value o.O would be broken as hell lol

You forgot also all the SAs/TAs part ?

Aura statue is really a hard mob.

Thorny's point is, in any situation where a THF's melee swings do single digit damage (taking it to the extreme), Mandau + X's is a better combo.

And those situations DO exist.

So should i understand you mean AuraStatue actually not "hard" enough ?