Completed Relic/Mythic weapons list

[Spider-Dan]

Basically, it's all going to come down to me disagreeing with "most HNMs fall into category 3". If you don't mind melee feeding the mob TP, there is little to no reason to care if melee tank it. Our melee tank more in Aery than paladins, but it's still nice to have paladins who care about surviving if people die (said melee generally /sam tank it, but if they went /nin, they wouldn't even mp sponge). And Odin is an even bigger joke, TBH. In fact, it actually makes it go smoother if your melee can bounce hate with your tanks.

So then what's with all your statements about how "it doesn't matter what I wear vs. HNM because I'm enmity capped anyway"? You've said it quite a few times. For example:

When I go to JoL, my gear is 100% irrelevant on SAM. If I go all out, I cap out on enmity. This is true for -every- HNM out there. Unless your shell lets DD tank, then meh.

And that's far from the only time you've said it.

Either enmity generation is an issue, or it isn't. Based on your previous statements, it seemed that you thought that it was The Single Limiting Factor on damage generation vs. HNM. If that's the case, there's no way to argue that RNG in general (and relic RNG specifically) doesn't have a huge advantage.

[Nere]

They do have an advantage until the tank takes a bunch of spike damage and the RNG gets a relic proc on a normal hit.

No different than any other DD at that point; the game just switches from offense to defense. Now who can stay alive?

[FailureMidgard]

So then what's with all your statements about how "it doesn't matter what I wear vs. HNM because I'm enmity capped anyway"? You've said it quite a few times. For example:



And that's far from the only time you've said it.

Either enmity generation is an issue, or it isn't. Based on your previous statements, it seemed that you thought that it was The Single Limiting Factor on damage generation vs. HNM. If that's the case, there's no way to argue that RNG in general (and relic RNG specifically) doesn't have a huge advantage.

Did you even read all the posts you linked? I'm going to go with no. First off, I think over half of those referenced JoL, which is one of the fights were pulling hate is actually a huge detriment. Past that, some of those posts you're taking entirely out of context, but here we go:

Post1. "and you are virtually irrelevant to the outcome of the fight. Your shell doesn't need you one bit unless you are undermanned with a timer (~6man Sandworm, PW, that's about it).". This is following the enmity comment. Yes, you are enmity capped. But past that, who gives a flying fuck if you do more damage. My point in the post is that survival is more important, and doing more damage doesn't matter. Never once did I say "You cannot survive while enmity capped". I don't recall if I posted it on BG, but feel free to talk to virtually anyone I've ever talked to, I've always argued/been of the opinion that a properly built DD can tank shit.

Post2. Again, I specifically mention -dmg gear (I did exaggerate, I am sorry if that threw you off, "full-time" really doesn't have any use in proper play in this game).

Post3. "Conversely, DD are going to cap out regardless, so enmity reduction is pretty futile." -Tsuko
"That logic is off. Doing X% more damage before dying/pulling hate/having to stop attacking is good. Whereas dmg songs just make you hit that earlier, -enmity songs actually give you more damage since they raise your cap." -Me
Fact is Fact? I didn't tell you just now that your -enmity on ranger is useless. It allows you to do more damage before dying/pulling hate/having to stop attacking. Congratulations! If I had it on SAM, I could do more before hitting that point also...

Post4. "For Dirge - any melee on any HNMish fight should be enmity capped. JoL/etc, you're gonna pull hate if you don't suck. I'd gladly take a Dirge." Hi2U JoL. If I pull hate, I cause all the melee to take heavy damage or get charmed. JoL != Odin.

Post5. "HNM-esque fights melee is enmity capped. On JoL, I'm really just as useful taking off 3 pieces of gear for the entire fight as I am trying to optimize." JoL = Odin this time. No wait, it doesn't.


Ok, so I'll try to be a little clearer for you. You listed 3 categories of fights, but I'm going to rename them (in a different order perhaps, I'm too lazy to go check) and add 1.

1. You can easily survive the monster and pulling hate will not harm others.
2. You can survive the monster with potentially some difficulty/good support required, and pulling hate will not harm others.
3. You either have no chance to survive the monster and/or if you pull hate, bad things will happen.
4. YOU DO NOT WANT TO FEED THE MONSTER TP, BUT SKILLCHAINS ARE NICE.

Ok, I misused the term HNM in the past. I am sorry. But anything in category 1 or 2, a good sam should beat a ranger (relic too). 3 maybe a relic ranger will win, but I'd bet a sam/rng will beat a non-relic ranger still. 4 we won't even discuss, because ranger is useless.

I'm not really sure what to say. At best, I can see 1 of those 5 posts you linked bringing you to the conclusion you came to, and that is my fault, I think I was unclear and didn't say what I meant. The other 4 really have nothing to do with this discussion, except that you are correct in regards to JoL, a melee really should have -dmg sets, and -enmity lets you do more damage before hitting the cap than no -enmity.

[shepardG]

nt

[Fottiti]

JoL is just a pain if you pull hate because he will likely hit you for 1k+ due to fluorescence or it will use another annoying tp move that will potentially kill melee. This is easily overcome by bringing a pup or drg (ideally pup) for melees to SATA onto.

[Despain]

http://images.bluegartr.com/forum/cu...tar46545_1.gif

Your avatar's more fitting.

[ZhiGaruda]

Basically, it's all going to come down to me disagreeing with "most HNMs fall into category 3". If you don't mind melee feeding the mob TP, there is little to no reason to care if melee tank it. Our melee tank more in Aery than paladins, but it's still nice to have paladins who care about surviving if people die (said melee generally /sam tank it, but if they went /nin, they wouldn't even mp sponge). And Odin is an even bigger joke, TBH. In fact, it actually makes it go smoother if your melee can bounce hate with your tanks.
DI is largely the same...anyone who is getting erases and /nin should be able to "tank", though admittedly it's very hard for a DD to hold hate due to the whole attacking from the front thing. I fail to see the benefit of never pulling hate in either fight.

As a side note, the small ~300 point aoes still wipe hate, and furthermore, once you hit cap hate, it just decays, then you pull hate when you ws, then it decays again, etc. It isn't dangerous, and there is "redundant" hate being added. If there were no enmity cap, maybe it would be bad, because you'd end up fulltime tanking, but that isn't the case at all.

This, pretty much. It's no problem for a DD to tank most HNMs, infact, it is largely better in terms of kill time. Gone are the days of PLD tanks and people cowering at doing high damage. SAM tanks are in, BLMs can go wild, etc.

Actually, one of the few times I was able to go SAM to DI, I was SAM/THF, and one of the PLDs died. I actually ended up with hate and co-tanked it from around 80% to death, with Oro, actually. I would TA-WS onto him, and if I got low enough on hate to lose it, I would go behind and SA-WS to get right back up on the list. Seigan-Third Eye works surprisingly well, and full PDT-% makes him hit for double digits!

[Nermie]

Deiopea ~ Gjallarhorn ~ Caitsith
http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p...opea_ghorn.png

Grats Deio!

[Spider-Dan]

Did you even read all the posts you linked? I'm going to go with no.

Then how would I know that you had made those statements? Do you think I just hoped that you did and searched blindly?

I remembered them because I had already read them.

First off, I think over half of those referenced JoL, [...]

Surely you don't expect that response to hold up? Here are the terms you used (emphasis added):

"This is true for -every- HNM out there"
"You are enmity capped on any fight you can melee on constantly"
"any melee on any HNMish fight should be enmity capped"

I'm surprised that you would even try to play the JoL-only card with the posts that I cited.

"That logic is off. Doing X% more damage before dying/pulling hate/having to stop attacking is good. Whereas dmg songs just make you hit that earlier, -enmity songs actually give you more damage since they raise your cap." -Me
Fact is Fact? I didn't tell you just now that your -enmity on ranger is useless. It allows you to do more damage before dying/pulling hate/having to stop attacking.

So then, if -enmity = more damage, and +dmg just makes you hit the cap earlier, how do you reconcile this with your statement that standard SAMs will outdamage perfect RNGs?

Post4. "For Dirge - any melee on any HNMish fight should be enmity capped. JoL/etc, you're gonna pull hate if you don't suck. I'd gladly take a Dirge." Hi2U JoL. If I pull hate, I cause all the melee to take heavy damage or get charmed. JoL != Odin.

Again, it's kind of hard to claim that you were only talking about JoL when you actually used the words "any HNMish fight" in the same quote.

Listen, it's pretty simple. In the past, you have been quite aggressive in promoting the idea that in HNM-type fights, +dmg doesn't matter when you will hit the cap anyway; you are really the only person that I've consistently heard say this in multiple threads, which is why it stood out. Such a mindset leads to the conclusion that -enmity is an incredibly important benefit, which is consistent with your statements defending Dirge in the BRD merits thread.

If you want to say that you've changed your mind, then fine. But don't act like I've quoted you out of context or misconstrued your statement. You were quite clear before.

If I were to suddenly make the argument that Greater Colibri are the most irrelevant mobs in the game, given my post history, I'd expect someone to call me out on it.

[FailureMidgard]

Then how would I know that you had made those statements? Do you think I just hoped that you did and searched blindly?

I remembered them because I had already read them.


Surely you don't expect that response to hold up? Here are the terms you used (emphasis added):

"This is true for -every- HNM out there"
"You are enmity capped on any fight you can melee on constantly"
"any melee on any HNMish fight should be enmity capped"

I'm surprised that you would even try to play the JoL-only card with the posts that I cited.


So then, if -enmity = more damage, and +dmg just makes you hit the cap earlier, how do you reconcile this with your statement that standard SAMs will outdamage perfect RNGs?


Again, it's kind of hard to claim that you were only talking about JoL when you actually used the words "any HNMish fight" in the same quote.

Listen, it's pretty simple. In the past, you have been quite aggressive in promoting the idea that in HNM-type fights, +dmg doesn't matter when you will hit the cap anyway; you are really the only person that I've consistently heard say this in multiple threads, which is why it stood out. Such a mindset leads to the conclusion that -enmity is an incredibly important benefit, which is consistent with your statements defending Dirge in the BRD merits thread.

If you want to say that you've changed your mind, then fine. But don't act like I've quoted you out of context or misconstrued your statement. You were quite clear before.

If I were to suddenly make the argument that Greater Colibri are the most irrelevant mobs in the game, given my post history, I'd expect someone to call me out on it.

I have always said you will be enmity capped. As I said, I have always said that DD tanks work out fine (if not better) than paladins. Search my posts and you'll find that too. I've said such just as many if not more times.

I am still not changing my statement that a good DD will enmity cap on -every- HNM out there if allowed to melee. JoL, Tiamat, Odin, DI, etc. You are still misconstruing statements though. As for the dirge thread, you have to realize what I'm arguing against - 5/5 nightingale merits. I'm not saying that -enmity is the end all be all for melee, I am saying that when you compare it to nightingale merits, dirge is far better, because believe it or not, there are times you don't want to pull hate.

And how can you be surprised at the "JoL card". I cited a general fact (You are enmity capped on any HNM fight) then a specific example where I wouldn't want to pull hate on an HNM (JoL). The important thing is for a DD to be able to handle their enmity, which most rangers still do a worse job of than most melee, because most melee still acknowledge the fact that /nin is better on a majority of HNMesque fights. Don't get me wrong though, I fucking hate sam/nin, but saying it has no use on a fight like Odin would be pretty stupid of me, IMO.

Hitting the enmity cap slower will give you more damage BEFORE YOU HIT THE ENMITY cap. I have stated this in past threads, and it is still true, which means free -enmity where you are losing NOTHING can maybe be a positive still. In no way does this mean that enmity is the single thing holding all melee back. A good melee can pull hate, not die, not create problems, and not sponge. If this is the case, then go all out. As far as the past is concerned, you still haven't acknowledged that I am arguing specific points. I still say a melee trying top optimize their damage for HNM only is stupid. It's the same as a paladin trying to optimize their enmity for a bird camp. Can you increase it? Sure, but who gives a flying fuck? Optimize melee for the shit that melee truly shines on. I enjoy playing SAM on Tiamat or something a ton, and while I can easily outparse every BLM/etc there on my SAM, I fully acknowledge that at the same time, I feed him TP on the ground, which makes the fight more dangerous, so I generally just go whm rdm or blm.

If you really can't read the entire quote, and see that my thing about -enmity raising damage is in reference to "doing x% more damage before dying/pulling hate/having to stop", then I give up.


1. You are enmity capped on every HNM fight that you can melee.
2. You need to be able to deal with #1. Either by surviving, or not doing it if it will cause serious problems.
3. Melee outdamages rangers with proper support (Haste+Bard+-nas+cures).

That is all. Not every HNM fight causes serious problems if you pull hate. Rangers are safer on JoL (if they do pull hate, they don't potentially MPK others also), they are better on Khim (Khim's AoEs all blow if you start feeding TP....stun to terror to tp loss, etc), but Odin is an entirely different story.

[Meepein]

I know I am late here, but grats Sath. Glad you finished that sucker up.

[Spider-Dan]

And how can you be surprised at the "JoL card". I cited a general fact (You are enmity capped on any HNM fight) then a specific example where I wouldn't want to pull hate on an HNM (JoL).

Your response implied that, in context, you might have been referring specifically to JoL, when it seemed quite obvious that you were citing JoL as merely one example of a commonly-occurring situation (i.e. "etc.").

The important thing is for a DD to be able to handle their enmity, which most rangers still do a worse job of than most melee, because most melee still acknowledge the fact that /nin is better on a majority of HNMesque fights.

I think it's fair to say that we are not talking about clueless players in this thread. As a RNG, I know (or deduce very quickly) when I need to /NIN and when I don't, and given that I'm already pretty clearly on board with reducing my damage for sake of enmity management, there's no reason to believe that I'd be anti-/NIN for epeen (or whatever) purposes. I know what the goal is. (Although you could argue that Anni RNG should be /SAM to everything, just because Coronach is dramatically superior to anything else they could be doing in terms of damage dealt per enmity generated.)

That being said, I think your comparison is pretty unfair. A RNG's choice not to /NIN is completely different than a melee's; RNG can choose to stand out of AoE and still do their job.

As far as the past is concerned, you still haven't acknowledged that I am arguing specific points. I still say a melee trying top optimize their damage for HNM only is stupid. It's the same as a paladin trying to optimize their enmity for a bird camp. Can you increase it? Sure, but who gives a flying fuck?

Wow, again, I'm stunned to hear this from you. How is this any different from other people saying that it's a waste of time to maximize your damage at bird camp? It's not like optimizing your damage for HNM involves some sort of great sacrifice, any more than tuning yourself for any other particular task. Optimizing damage at HNM results in quicker, cleaner kills. Why would you be against it?

And I think that PLD enmity vs. mobs-that-don't-need-dedicated-tanks (birds) is a rather disingenuous comparison to DD output vs. mobs-that-need-to-be-damaged.

If you really can't read the entire quote, and see that my thing about -enmity raising damage is in reference to "doing x% more damage before dying/pulling hate/having to stop", then I give up.

That's the entire point! RNG gets to deal more damage before they have to stop. How does this result in standard SAMs beating perfect RNGs?

[richardd]

god im late, but kakeshi (hades) got amano? tell that nagger i said grats lol. i guess i wont be seeing his Canadian ass in XIV he's invested too much in 11! and neph is such a beast. even when she's playing aion, she still pwning up FFXI. she needs to forget about winston/stan/whatever and get with the sexier elvaan foshoyo. (not talking about firas!)

[FailureMidgard]

Your response implied that, in context, you might have been referring specifically to JoL, when it seemed quite obvious that you were citing JoL as merely one example of a commonly-occurring situation (i.e. "etc.").


I think it's fair to say that we are not talking about clueless players in this thread. As a RNG, I know (or deduce very quickly) when I need to /NIN and when I don't, and given that I'm already pretty clearly on board with reducing my damage for sake of enmity management, there's no reason to believe that I'd be anti-/NIN for epeen (or whatever) purposes. I know what the goal is. (Although you could argue that Anni RNG should be /SAM to everything, just because Coronach is dramatically superior to anything else they could be doing in terms of damage dealt per enmity generated.)

That being said, I think your comparison is pretty unfair. A RNG's choice not to /NIN is completely different than a melee's; RNG can choose to stand out of AoE and still do their job.


Wow, again, I'm stunned to hear this from you. How is this any different from other people saying that it's a waste of time to maximize your damage at bird camp? It's not like optimizing your damage for HNM involves some sort of great sacrifice, any more than tuning yourself for any other particular task. Optimizing damage at HNM results in quicker, cleaner kills. Why would you be against it?

Which HNM are we referring to now? Khim you shouldn't really bring melee unless they are tanking. Tiamat is the same. Faf/Nid are the same. JoL optimizing is taking gear off as I've said. SWGuivre you only need WS gear because you basically never TP. Lambton is SC only pretty much.

K, I'm bored. There are some "HNM"s I care about my gear on. Odin, Serket, SWKA, JoJ, JoH. That's about it? Melee shines in other areas, tbqh.

That's the entire point! RNG gets to deal more damage before they have to stop. How does this result in standard SAMs beating perfect RNGs?

ONLY ON FIGHTS THAT STOPPING IS NEEDED ON. -not- Odin. Seriously, when I go SAM to Odin, I don't have to stop except to run out for 5 sec to avoid AoE dispel.

[Wrathbone]

Now that that's out of the way, back to relics?

Nah I'm kidding, I'm digging the debate.

Needs more pics tho, all these words make my head essplode.

[Kipling]

Squirmie is such a cute name for a taru. <3

[RyanWh]

so which relic is best for ALL situations? Bow?

[Metta]

Guttler.

[stewie]

Yagrush.

[Nightfyre]

Claustrum.

Spoiler: show

Too obvious?