Completed Relic/Mythic weapons list

[Konda]

full details of the Tomoe vs Amano parse can be found on my LJ that I just made to write it all up in lol

http://kondaffxi.livejournal.com

edit: tldr version (LJ conclusion):

If both players are playing to their max, Tomoe can keep up, compete with and even out perform Amanomurakumo at Nysul Isle bird camp.

However, somethings to consider:
- Multihit weaponskills are severely gimped by killshots (see my 99dmg penta), whereas 1hit weaponskills still do their full damage.
- I only have swift belt, and have no polarm merits. With full merits and a mixed set (not full usu) I could gain up to 5% haste compared with my current build.
- Polarm has a 25% damage bonus on birds.
- It was still very close on Wivre.

edit edit: Ejin's tldr:

tl;dr: playstyle is the most deciding matter in a parse. amano and polearm are basically even but with mix set(max haste) and 25% dmg bonus tomoe is probably too much for amano to catch.

[FailureMidgard]

Pretty sure Starr was talking about WAR using Polearm and not SAM, which is entirely different. I also think a Marinara Pizza+1, max gear Tomoe SAM would beat an Amano at Mamools etc too, basically anything non-HNM.

Eh? I really think you're delusional. Also, what makes you think Amano is good on HNM? It's a sidegrade to a Hagun really on high defense targets.

full details of the Tomoe vs Amano parse can be found on my LJ that I just made to write it all up in lol

http://kondaffxi.livejournal.com

edit: tldr version (LJ conclusion):

If both players are playing to their max, Tomoe can keep up, compete with and even out perform Amanomurakumo at Nysul Isle bird camp.

However, somethings to consider:
- Multihit weaponskills are severely gimped by killshots (see my 99dmg penta), whereas 1hit weaponskills still do their full damage.
- I only have swift belt, and have no polarm merits. With full merits and a mixed set (not full usu) I could gain up to 5% haste compared with my current build.
- Polarm has a 25% damage bonus on birds.
- It was still very close on Wivre.

edit edit: Ejin's tldr:

tl;dr: playstyle is the most deciding matter in a parse. amano and polearm are basically even but with mix set(max haste) and 25% dmg bonus tomoe is probably too much for amano to catch.

Lol @ your life journal entry. Numbers are numbers, either he doesn't have the gear you listed, doesn't have 8 GK merits, or he should be TPing in a flame ring vs birds (you -can- swap TP gear based on the target you know). I parsed at 98% accuracy once though, does that mean I should stack more accuracy because 98% is cap?! WOOHOO!

And knocking on the math...ok? I agree that playstyle is the most important thing, if you're slow engaging a mob, and you lose a swing every mob, it's going to severely hurt your performance. If you save TP to 120 every TP cycle, you can call your 6hit a 7hit build. But numbers are saying _ASSUMING_ you can play with the same efficiency, item A will beat item B. We're assuming that you play with the same efficiency regardless which item you have, so for YOU, some item is better than another. We are not saying every player that uses a turban over an Ace's while at capped accuracy will beat every player that uses an Ace's. But all other things equal, if you are at capped accuracy, Turban is a better piece than Ace's.

Anyway, polearm is amazing, esp on things that take +25% damage. I don't know how someone can argue pole will win at MJSP though when 6/7ths of the mobs there took +25% damage to pole, Amano should easily win at MJSP.

[Konda]

Lol @ your life journal entry. Numbers are numbers, either he doesn't have the gear you listed, doesn't have 8 GK merits, or he should be TPing in a flame ring vs birds (you -can- swap TP gear based on the target you know). I parsed at 98% accuracy once though, does that mean I should stack more accuracy because 98% is cap?! WOOHOO!

He DOES have the gear, he DOES have 8GKT merits. TPing in 5STR ring isn't going to jump his damage up to the point where it's conclusively better than Tomoe in the circumstances that were outlined clearly in the LJ.

By my calculation, he had 424 Acc. This definatly caps him for birds, but for Wivre? Swapping to a triumph ring would maybe have been the best course of action, after that he's maxed out things he could improve on.
5STR would not have changed the outcome. I have 5 more base str, being elvaan so all it would have done is cancel the race difference. As is well known, race means next to nothing.
swapping usukane feet > dusk+1 when aftermath is up is a greater improvement than using 5str more. Doing this also loses you 7 acc, hence sniper+1 remained in his TP build (although not strictly needed).

You're either not giving Tomoe enough credit or are butthurt someone with better equipment than you couldn't defend this idealised little mental image you seem to have of Amano or both.

Amano is the best GKT in the game.
Tomoe isn't a GKT.
Tomoe would be better than Amano under ideal circumstances at birds, simply because of the +25% damage bonus.


You've brough no data to this little discussion. Instead of saying "ya, but my amano is awesome even tho I dont have capped gear for it and stuff but it's awesome because it's amano and it's mine and i said so"; give us some info to back it up or shut up.



More testing is needed before we can draw a definate conclusion. but after a first look, it seems Tomoe really is amazing.

I don't know how someone can argue pole will win at MJSP though when 6/7ths of the mobs there took +25% damage to pole, Amano should easily win at MJSP.

This is what we hope to find out.

[FailureMidgard]

He DOES have the gear, he DOES have 8GKT merits. TPing in 5STR ring isn't going to jump his damage up to the point where it's conclusively better than Tomoe in the circumstances that were outlined clearly in the LJ.

By my calculation, he had 424 Acc. This definatly caps him for birds, but for Wivre? Swapping to a triumph ring would maybe have been the best course of action, after that he's maxed out things he could improve on.
5STR would not have changed the outcome. I have 5 more base str, being elvaan so all it would have done is cancel the race difference. As is well known, race means next to nothing.
swapping usukane feet > dusk+1 when aftermath is up is a greater improvement than using 5str more. Doing this also loses you 7 acc, hence sniper+1 remained in his TP build (although not strictly needed).

You're either not giving Tomoe enough credit or are butthurt someone with better equipment than you couldn't defend this idealised little mental image you seem to have of Amano or both.

Amano is the best GKT in the game.
Tomoe isn't a GKT.
Tomoe would be better than Amano under ideal circumstances at birds, simply because of the +25% damage bonus.


You've brough no data to this little discussion. Instead of saying "ya, but my amano is awesome even tho I dont have capped gear for it and stuff but it's awesome because it's amano and it's mine and i said so"; give us some info to back it up or shut up.



More testing is needed before we can draw a definate conclusion. but after a first look, it seems Tomoe really is amazing.



This is what we hope to find out.

What? I've been saying since before I got Amano that I think Tomoe would win. I'm not saying 5 str would change it, I was merely commenting like 5 posts ago that he should do that, and I brought it up again because you took a crack at me in LJ. Feel free to ask Avelle or something my opinions on Tomoe, I told him I thought Amano would do worse on birds than Tomoe multiple times.

The only arguments I'm making are:
A. Your pole set is inferior.
B. Your friend should make that 1 swap on gear if we want to talk about a perfect setup. It will not suddenly make Amano win, I fully agree.
C. I assumed he swapped into Fumas with aftermath? Does he not? Going from Fuma to Dusk+1 is a SMALLER upgrade than going from an acc ring to Flame Ring. Get your facts straight. Furthermore, going from 424 acc to 410 acc is STILL capped on accuracy, so he should be doing both on birds, not saying he can only lose 7 acc.

As a side note, if you want my "butthurt" opinions in general, I think that relics are too powerful in many situations, and I think it's silly the difference that they can make. I like the idea of a more powerful, hard to get weapon, but I think some relics went TOO far, and just skew game balance. This is speaking as a relic holder of arguably one of the most powerful ones. As I said, I have multiple times said I think Tomoe will outdamage Amano on birds, and I think this is a little sad/pathetic. It's just a statement about general game balance and how things work. If a dragoon were the uncontested champion of birds, it'd make sense to me, but a pole sam with dick all skill in polearm outdamages dragoons on birds, and furthermore beats a 150-160mil weapon for the same job. This seems fine and dandy to you, from a gamebalance point of view?
Trust me, I'm not butthurt, I have a better pole build than you for bird camps, and I'm perfectly fine using it over my Amano if it is better. Your parse has proved absolutely nothing though except that "they may be kinda close". I honestly do believe that Tomoe should win by a comfortable margin.

Ok, now that my opinions are clear to you, stop pulling shit out of your ass. I am saying that if you want to accurately try to compare (via parse or numbers) you should probably try to give both players proper gear.

I'm still not entirely sure on if Amano even beats Pole on birds...it's one of the things I really want to mess with now that I have one, but haven't really had the time. Really painful/annoying/hard to do the numbers on paper on the 2.

How did you get that I think Amano wins from this? When I read it, the implication is I think Pole wins, but Amano may have a chance...

[Konda]

Comparing a 8GK Amano to a 4Pole Tomoe is already biased in so many ways, if Tomoe can even remotely keep up, that's honestly kinda sad/funny in it's own right

This suggests that you're in favour of amano.


Maybe I didnt explain the nature of the whole test clearly enough, I was still kinda /psyched for outparsing an Amano in that sort of idealised party.

Tomoe is undisputed king of birds, after soboro yochi sam/drg.

The whole idea was to see if Amano could keep up with Tomoe, despite the 25% damage bonus in favour of Tomoe.
Amano does manage to keep up. If the tomoe player was a slightly less aggressive player, Amano would have comfortably won.

Amano was clearly the underdog going into this test.

Try keeping up with a tomoe using a hagun. you'd probably not get within 10-15% of him. The fact that Amano can just goes to prove how much of an improvement it is over Hagun.

We plan to test the two weapons again, but with the factors in favour of Amano this time.
Polearm is still arguably the best weapon for a non-relic SAM on mobs where you can get your Acc and Atk high enough. We hope to see how it compares with Amano on them.


If anything, I'd say this parse goes to show how little all the maths crafting that people do on BG for miniscule improvements actually matters. At the end of the day, it's down the the player.


also, I missed this:

If you save TP to 120 every TP cycle, you can call your 6hit a 7hit build.

I sat on TP if a mob was under 15-20% Using penta then would have been a waste of TP. I usually switched targets and Penta'd on a fresh mob if it was under 10%. Maths can't account for that, or other little tricks to winning parses.

[FailureMidgard]

This suggests that you're in favour of amano.


Maybe I didnt explain the nature of the whole test clearly enough, I was still kinda /psyched for outparsing an Amano in that sort of idealised party.

Tomoe is undisputed king of birds, after soboro yochi sam/drg.

The whole idea was to see if Amano could keep up with Tomoe, despite the 25% damage bonus in favour of Tomoe.
Amano does manage to keep up. If the tomoe player was a slightly less aggressive player, Amano would have comfortably won.

Amano was clearly the underdog going into this test.

Try keeping up with a tomoe using a hagun. you'd probably not get within 10-15% of him. The fact that Amano can just goes to prove how much of an improvement it is over Hagun.

We plan to test the two weapons again, but with the factors in favour of Amano this time.
Polearm is still arguably the best weapon for a non-relic SAM on mobs where you can get your Acc and Atk high enough. We hope to see how it compares with Amano on them.


If anything, I'd say this parse goes to show how little all the maths crafting that people do on BG for miniscule improvements actually matters. At the end of the day, it's down the the player.


also, I missed this:

I sat on TP if a mob was under 15-20% Using penta then would have been a waste of TP. I usually switched targets and Penta'd on a fresh mob if it was under 10%. Maths can't account for that, or other little tricks to winning parses.

You misunderstood that comment, I'm saying that if even lacking combat merits, lacking 160mil spent, Tomoe were 5% behind an Amano, that's already sad/funny, from a game balance point of view. I'm not saying that Amano will win, I'm just saying it's a silly comparison, and when Amano already costs what it does, using a full Usu setup with 0 merits in pole is just giving Amano more advantages for no reason. I mean, he even had dusk+1 vs your NQ? So that's another haste swung. Though, if you were fulltime Hasso, you should have been fine with 0 merits to use a mixed set still.

Anyway, ya, playstyle is definitely bigger than a small upgrade, but whenever any of us do math on these forums, we are assuming a similar playstyle, more specifically, we are assuming anyone asking a question plays the same as well, they do. A 5str ring won't make up for someone being slow to engage or WS, for lag or any reason. But if you assume they are slow to engage and WS, the str ring will still outdo the acc ring when acc capped.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Amano, but I'm not delusional about it, and I won't use it just to use it when Tomoe outdoes it. But, I disagree with you saying you plan to test again "but with factors in favor of Amano this time"...I think based on your gear vs his gear last time, last time it was already in favor of Amano.

[Spider-Dan]

Nyzul Mamools!

Not enough mobs, and you still have deal with Lurkers.

[Spider-Dan]

Tomoe is undisputed king of birds, after soboro yochi sam/drg.

KC RNG doesn't count?

[Konda]

KC RNG doesn't count?

I dunno. I think Tomoe would still win. I don't know any dedicated Kclub RNG (with HQ equips AND merits). I'd be interesting in testing it sometime though.

[FailureMidgard]

I dunno. I think Tomoe would still win. I don't know any dedicated Kclub RNG (with HQ equips AND merits). I'd be interesting in testing it sometime though.

A good KC rng destroys Tomoe, sorry :/

[Vendeen]

Wwcc, Garuda has Kclub + Relic Gun with a decent setup for it.

Basically it eats faces, hands down best thing against birds. Granted, it means some poor Warrior (like me) either 1. Doesn't ever get to WS, or 2. Gets their face eatten.

[Spider-Dan]

Setting KC RNG aside for the moment, doesn't Gondo WAR give Tomoe SAM a run for their money?

[Konda]

Garuda =/= Caitsith :/

[Konda]

Setting KC RNG aside for the moment, doesn't Gondo WAR give Tomoe SAM a run for their money?

Sam has 5hit, 2:30 meditate for 140=180TP, Overwhelm.

War has... mighty strikes for epeen number and retaliation?

[Raen Ryong]

Setting KC RNG aside for the moment, doesn't Gondo WAR give Tomoe SAM a run for their money?

I would doubt it personally. You're looking at a difference of 0~5% DA, 1% haste?*, a slightly longer Berserk, Aggressor** and Adaman Hauberk/Fire Bomblet vs 5hit/stronger Meditate and Overwhelm.

*Unless I'm missing something, WAR can use 1% more Haste in gear with Blitz Ring, but the practicality of this with a Polearm varies... generally I'd say not feasible.
**Aggressor may or may not be that significant depending on gear/buffs/food/etcetc.

I don't think it's close honestly.

[Fottiti]

Basically it eats faces, hands down best thing against birds.

Except Soboro/Yoichi Sam.

[Vendeen]

Sam has 5hit, 2:30 meditate for 140=180TP, Overwhelm.

War has... mighty strikes for epeen number and retaliation?

Yea, because that's the only advantage Warrior has over Samurai...Mighty Strikes and Retaliation.

[Spider-Dan]

Soboro/Yoichi SAM vs. KC RNG needs to be parsed.

I'm not sure on the proc rate of Retaliation, but if wiki's numbers are right (~50%) then that's a significant chunk of extra TP (given that retaliations, unlike counters, generate TP). I think it's also pretty silly to dismiss Aggressor out of hand.

[Konda]

Soboro/Yoichi SAM vs. KC RNG needs to be parsed.

I'm not sure on the proc rate of Retaliation, but if wiki's numbers are right (~50%) then that's a significant chunk of extra TP (given that retaliations, unlike counters, generate TP). I think it's also pretty silly to dismiss Aggressor out of hand.

the retaliation requires the WAR to have hate, which it wont against a Tomoe SAM.

[Aragon of Odin]

Would Levy Couses 4 Base Dmg and 8 att beat Gondo's 6% Crit for War? And would it even compare to Tomoe for Sam?