Completed Relic/Mythic weapons list

[Fottiti]

It doesn't need to be parsed, it needs to be calculated based on a set of conditions.

Soboro Sam/Drg using 26% haste can get over 420 accuracy whilst meleeing in cerb +1/justice torque. Rng, even with 8 club merits and sushi will likely not cap accuracy on wivres (thorny or someone made a post explaining that berserk was of more benefit than the 2.something% haste rng would get from /drg, but unsure if it was based on haste/2xmarch).

Sam will be able to eat proper attack food (subs seem like a fair balance on cost given the fact they will have hate far less than a conventional melee). Rng will ofcourse be limited to sushi.

Sam will be able to get tp atleast 12% faster than Kraken rng, assuming absolute best gear on both jobs and double march/haste. Sam will have a further advantage if haste samba is active.

Rng will naturally have a higher WS average, and distance penalty is greater on yoichi than on anni. Sam will have a much much higher total melee damage.

I don't have any idea how close it would be (give me some average WS damages and I will try to work it out) but it seems pretty likely Sam has the advantage and the better the party the more it favours sam (more wivres).

[Konda]

It doesn't need to be parsed, it needs to be calculated based on a set of conditions.

Soboro Sam/Drg using 26% haste can get over 420 accuracy whilst meleeing in cerb +1/justice torque. Rng, even with 8 club merits and sushi will likely not cap accuracy on wivres (thorny or someone made a post explaining that berserk was of more benefit than the 2.something% haste rng would get from /drg, but unsure if it was based on haste/2xmarch).

Sam will be able to eat proper attack food (subs seem like a fair balance on cost given the fact they will have hate far less than a conventional melee). Rng will ofcourse be limited to sushi.

Sam will be able to get tp atleast 12% faster than Kraken rng, assuming absolute best gear on both jobs and double march/haste. Sam will have a further advantage if haste samba is active.

Rng will naturally have a higher WS average, and distance penalty is greater on yoichi than on anni. Sam will have a much much higher total melee damage.

I don't have any idea how close it would be (give me some average WS damages and I will try to work it out) but it seems pretty likely Sam has the advantage and the better the party the more it favours sam (more wivres).

/war results in less Kclub procs due to Double attack.
/drg gives the RNG 26% haste, jumps (good with Kclub).

Also, dont forget Acc bonus4 gives ~48 acc, making Kclub similar to a B(256) skill weapon without any accuracy bonus traits. so with sushi, your acc will likely be capped/near cap.

[Spider-Dan]

Sam will be able to eat proper attack food (subs seem like a fair balance on cost given the fact they will have hate far less than a conventional melee). Rng will ofcourse be limited to sushi.

This is more of an academic point than anything else, since:

a) the benefit of subs vs. sushi on RNG's melee damage is rather questionable to begin with
b) regardless of food, RNG will trash SAM in per-WS damage

Sam will be able to get tp atleast 12% faster than Kraken rng, assuming absolute best gear on both jobs and double march/haste. Sam will have a further advantage if haste samba is active.

Numbers, please.

Rng will naturally have a higher WS average, and distance penalty is greater on yoichi than on anni. Sam will have a much much higher total melee damage.

Annihilator? Why would RNG use Annihilator when satchels exist?

Culverin has higher DMG, more RATK, and a closer optimal firing range.

I don't have any idea how close it would be (give me some average WS damages and I will try to work it out) but it seems pretty likely Sam has the advantage and the better the party the more it favours sam (more wivres).

First of all, the better the party, the more it favors RNG. This is rather easily explained in that at capped accuracy/haste/(R)ATK, RNG wins this competion in a f*cking landslide (e.g. Soboro's melee damage advantage is greatly reduced, RNG's WS damage advantage is greatly increased, etc.), while with less support, SAM has the advantage. Every additional +(R)ATK, -mobEVA, or -mobDEF change helps RNG more than it does SAM.

But ultimately, I stick by my original statement. Until we know how to factor in Yoichi RATK distance penalty vs. Culverin RATK distance penalty, the single biggest factor in RNG's favor (WS damage) is completely up in the air.

[Spider-Dan]

the retaliation requires the WAR to have hate, which it wont against a Tomoe SAM.

If only WAR had a job ability that allowed them to generate a lot of hate at the start of a fight?

I'm not saying that it's not necessarily cheating, but surely you agree that it's more logical for the WAR to voke than the SAM.

[FailureMidgard]

If only WAR had a job ability that allowed them to generate a lot of hate at the start of a fight?

I'm not saying that it's not necessarily cheating, but surely you agree that it's more logical for the WAR to voke than the SAM.

Why exactly? I open with a Penta a lot of the time...and I'd rather have overwhelm than not, so I voke. Also, most wars don't bother with an enmity swap, so my voke wins Even if the war does voke at the start, you won't get more than 1 swing on you, or shouldn't.

[Spider-Dan]

So you don't kill (or near kill) with WS?

I would argue that intentionally voking to get Overwhelm (instead of moving to front) is not too far removed from a WAR voking and turning the mob away from you so that you don't get Overwhelm.

If we're talking about a party where both DDs are attempting to work as a team and not overtly trying to dick each other out of damage, the most logical solution is for WAR to voke and both players to line up in front of it (whether SAM strafes to WAR or WAR strafes to SAM is arguable, though).

[FailureMidgard]

So you don't kill (or near kill) with WS?

I would argue that intentionally voking to get Overwhelm (instead of moving to front) is not too far removed from a WAR voking and turning the mob away from you so that you don't get Overwhelm.

If we're talking about a party where both DDs are attempting to work as a team and not overtly trying to dick each other out of damage, the most logical solution is for WAR to voke and both players to line up in front of it (whether SAM strafes to WAR or WAR strafes to SAM is arguable, though).

Obviously how much damage it does is based on buffs. I'd say on average with 2 buffers, no, you aren't doing 75%+ with a WS as sam. With 3 buffers sure. As for your logical thing, no, you're being completely unrealistic. We don't stand on top of each other at all times, people are human and we're in a high haste situation, I will easily lose a full swing moving around to the front, esp with mob pathing/etc/etc, which is all the warrior stands to gain with retaliation. Indirectly, maybe I'm harming the warrior, but it's nowhere near the same as the war turning it away to deny overwhelm.

Past all that, you can only voke 1/2 mobs anyway, so the most logical way to do it is alternate vokes in my personal opinion.

[Spider-Dan]

Obviously how much damage it does is based on buffs. I'd say on average with 2 buffers, no, you aren't doing 75%+ with a WS as sam.

My question would perhaps be better worded as, "You always save TP for the next mob instead of using it when you reach 100?"

[FailureMidgard]

My question would perhaps be better worded as, "You always save TP for the next mob instead of using it when you reach 100?"

Obviously not, but it happens quite a bit, and 80 TP at the end of a mob is essentially 100 TP at the start of a mob, which is only 3 melee swings...

[Fottiti]

This is more of an academic point than anything else, since:

a) the benefit of subs vs. sushi on RNG's melee damage is rather questionable to begin with
b) regardless of food, RNG will trash SAM in per-WS damage

a) The benefit of subs vs sushi is not questionable on K club rng, you're going to be making use of virtually all of the accuracy boost.
b) Yep rng will have higher WS damage, the difference will vary depending on food eaten.

Numbers, please.

Adjusted based on using culverin +1 + shells. Come out pretty much even now (this is based on some assumptions about kraken clubs distribution).

First of all, the better the party, the more it favors RNG. This is rather easily explained in that at capped accuracy/haste/(R)ATK, RNG wins this competion in a f*cking landslide (e.g. Soboro's melee damage advantage is greatly reduced, RNG's WS damage advantage is greatly increased, etc.), while with less support, SAM has the advantage. Every additional +(R)ATK, -mobEVA, or -mobDEF change helps RNG more than it does SAM.

No it is not a landslide, rng will be forced to use sushi and sam will have the freedom to eat meat and not have it stolen as often as other jobs (this justifies the use of more expensive food). How is soboro's melee damage reduced exactly, 304 combat skill, can use cerb+1/justice torque/haub+1 (provided you landed WS). Rng however will be getting no form of attack buff other than Chaos Roll (you were talking about merits so I assume that exp is the eventual goal unless there is some other point to birds).

What you said here doesn't really make any sense, sure a reduction in mobEVA would benefit rng more on wivres but you would still have to be eating sushi and would be capped on birds. A reduction in mobDEF would benefit both jobs.

But ultimately, I stick by my original statement. Until we know how to factor in Yoichi RATK distance penalty vs. Culverin RATK distance penalty, the single biggest factor in RNG's favor (WS damage) is completely up in the air.

Yes it does vary heavily based on average WS damage but optimal buffs for a merit party would only include chaos roll (in terms of what affects WS damage).

[Konda]

Using penta to killshot (under 20%) is a waste of TP.
I'd swap to the next mob and let whoever else finish the current one.

Sam also has usu feet on as standard. the WAR won't have any native enmity equipment, so the SAM's vokes will do more. not to mention, 90% of the fights, the SAM will open with a penta which gains more hate than voke and does more than the WAR's penta.

Vokedicking a SAM out of overwhelm generally wont work because a SAM is used to moving to the front of a mob, and will just move to where the WAR is without really thinking about it.

[aionls]

bullshit

[BerenTebogo]

I parsed a apoc v tomoe on my server for about 90 minutes and they pretty much came out around similar.

Note this was not my apoc but Jibond a askar body wearing apoc drk v Boogaloopimp a while back now, i never got to go at it with Booga until he sold his account i did parse with the new owner and beat him with apoc.

Means you're parsing against shitty players. As much as I don't like it: all things being equal (i.e. players not being idiots, buffs, etc) a SAM with piercing bonus weapon against piercing weak mobs will trash virtually every other job, aside from KC RNG or SAM yoichi, on piercing weak mobs.

[Spider-Dan]

a) The benefit of subs vs sushi is not questionable on K club rng, you're going to be making use of virtually all of the accuracy boost.

Right. The point is, you're implying that RNG is at some extreme disadvantage because they're eating sushi, but 1) RNG's melee damage isn't going to be very impressive even if they could eat meat (e.g. 3rd BRD singing madrigal and an outside healer) and 2) RNG's per-WS damage is going to easily crush SAM's even with sushi.

So saying "RNG has to eat sushi!!!1!" as if that's some sort of insult doesn't carry a whole lot of weight. Yes, it would be nice to slug at 3k per. That doesn't mean it's needed.

Adjusted based on using culverin +1 + shells. Come out pretty much even now (this is based on some assumptions about kraken clubs distribution).

Numbers, please?

No it is not a landslide, rng will be forced to use sushi and sam will have the freedom to eat meat and not have it stolen as often as other jobs (this justifies the use of more expensive food).

Reading helps.

I said that with capped accuracy/haste/(R)ATK, RNG would win in a landslide. This should be patently obvious; KC would come very close to outdamaging soboro straight up (faster weapons benefit more from fSTR than slower ones) and slug would be ~doubling Namas. SAM loses in a laugher.

So with that point established, you can then realize that if RNG wins at the extreme buff advantage of the scale, changes that take the scenario further towards that end of the scale (read: better party) benefit RNG more than SAM.

What you said here doesn't really make any sense, sure a reduction in mobEVA would benefit rng more on wivres but you would still have to be eating sushi and would be capped on birds. A reduction in mobDEF would benefit both jobs.

I recommend you try doing the math; greater pDIF disparity helps RNG more than SAM. Again, at capped pDIF RNG wipes the floor with SAM, so I'm not sure how this is hard to understand.

Yes it does vary heavily based on average WS damage but optimal buffs for a merit party would only include chaos roll (in terms of what affects WS damage).

I'm actually presuming double march/double min, but w/e.

[Kirschy]

Means you're parsing against shitty players. As much as I don't like it: all things being equal (i.e. players not being idiots, buffs, etc) a SAM with piercing bonus weapon against piercing weak mobs will trash virtually every other job, aside from KC RNG or SAM yoichi, on piercing weak mobs.

^ I've outparsed PLMs at Coli /w apoc, but I have no delusions about it being better.

[Fottiti]

Right. The point is, you're implying that RNG is at some extreme disadvantage because they're eating sushi, but 1) RNG's melee damage isn't going to be very impressive even if they could eat meat (e.g. 3rd BRD singing madrigal and an outside healer) and 2) RNG's per-WS damage is going to easily crush SAM's even with sushi.

So saying "RNG has to eat sushi!!!1!" as if that's some sort of insult doesn't carry a whole lot of weight. Yes, it would be nice to slug at 3k per. That doesn't mean it's needed.

Where the fuck did I insult rng by noting its necessity to use sushi, you're just taking offense because you are a rng fanboi. The point I was making is that difference in food choices will affect WS damage considerably instead of simply saying rng will do more WS damage.

I said that with capped accuracy/haste/(R)ATK, RNG would win in a landslide. This should be patently obvious; KC would come very close to outdamaging soboro straight up (faster weapons benefit more from fSTR than slower ones) and slug would be ~doubling Namas. SAM loses in a laugher.

You won't be capping (R)ATK because the entire purpose of a merit party is to get exp (second bards aren't optimal you know). I am well aware that slugshot will be doing more damage than namas but to suggest it will be close to doubling it is a wild assumption. At high haste values the difference in delay between soboro and K club is much smaller (138 vs 116 makes soboro 18% slower), if you are suggesting that fSTR alone is going to make up for the huge base damage difference and huge difference in attack

So with that point established, you can then realize that if RNG wins at the extreme buff advantage of the scale, changes that take the scenario further towards that end of the scale (read: better party) benefit RNG more than SAM.

Extreme buffs means what exactly? In a merit party you don't have bards rotating in to boost attack hugely. Better party is the one that gets more exp/kills monsters faster but due to it not being a zerg you won't have every buff availible.

I recommend you try doing the math; greater pDIF disparity helps RNG more than SAM. Again, at capped pDIF RNG wipes the floor with SAM, so I'm not sure how this is hard to understand.

As I've said, you won't be capping pDIF because cors and dncs do more than second bards.

I'm actually presuming double march/double min, but w/e.

Thats your problem then.

Edit: If you actually have a dnc (we're talking about the best merit/kill fast party, then soboro is only around 5.6% slower.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Means you're parsing against shitty players. As much as I don't like it: all things being equal (i.e. players not being idiots, buffs, etc) a SAM with piercing bonus weapon against piercing weak mobs will trash virtually every other job, aside from KC RNG or SAM yoichi, on piercing weak mobs.

Get the fuck out of here with your stupid math mumbo jumbo, he actually parsed that shit.

[FailureMidgard]

Get the fuck out of here with your stupid math mumbo jumbo, he actually parsed that shit.

This one time.
At Bird camp.
I totally outparsed an Amano Sam.
With a Hardwood Katana.

[Konda]

I outparsed your mom with my hardwood katana.

[Spider-Dan]

Where the fuck did I insult rng by noting its necessity to use sushi, you're just taking offense because you are a rng fanboi.

Sam will be able to eat proper attack food (subs seem like a fair balance on cost given the fact they will have hate far less than a conventional melee). Rng will ofcourse be limited to sushi.

What point, exactly, were you trying to make here? Why does it matter that RNG is "limited" to sushi when their WS will still be greatly outdamaging SAM's and their melee damage output will be weak either way?

In actual practice, is RNG's WS damage (while eating sushi) going to be weak? No, it's still going to be stronger than damn near any other DD in existence. You're saying that RNG is "limited" to sushi, which results in their WSes dealing "only" 2k. Like that's bad.

[re: RNG at capped atk/acc/haste]
Are you really this bad at reading comprehension?

In a HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION where both DDs have capped ACC/ATK/haste, RNG wins in a blowout. THEREFORE, we may conclude that better party (read: more support) = greater advantage to RNG, because in the BEST POSSIBLE PARTY (e.g. a huge stable of rotating SV Troub'd BRDs) RNG would definitely win.

Why is this so incredibly hard for you to grasp?

I'm actually presuming double march/double min, but w/e.

That's your problem then.

RNG SAM RDM BRD XXX XXX

Pick your poison. You want COR DNC? Do you really think Chaos + Box Step + Desperate Flourish is better for your argument than double Minuet? No objection here, let's see the math.

Edit: If you actually have a dnc (we're talking about the best merit/kill fast party, then soboro is only around 5.6% slower.

It's funny how you keep throwing out these precise numbers as if you've calculated things, yet somehow this data has failed to make it into the thread.