Completed Relic/Mythic weapons list

[vagus]

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/j...5_205616-2.png

LS mate Potpressure with 2nd Yagrush on Odin.

[Fottiti]

Dancer is useful for anything other than Haste Samba and a sub job?

No, the advantage is that you can add ~50% damage to a 2 handed melee using hasso whilst vastly improving the survivability of everyone in the party. Also has the benefit of doing considerable damage (not in terms of other melee but as a percentage of the parties total damage) whilst having instant cures/curagas/erases and being able to lower the targets evasion/defense.

75 DNC with 5/5 Haste Samba merits is easily the most underrated thing left in ffxi.

[Hegarty]

Dancer is useful for anything other than Haste Samba and a sub job?

No but where did SCH end up?

inb4 "zomg amazing nuking and healing all in one!!"

[Cairthenn]

No, the advantage is that you can add ~50% damage to a 2 handed melee using hasso whilst vastly improving the survivability of everyone in the party. Also has the benefit of doing considerable damage (not in terms of other melee but as a percentage of the parties total damage) whilst having instant cures/curagas/erases and being able to lower the targets evasion/defense.

75 DNC with 5/5 Haste Samba merits is easily the most underrated thing left in ffxi.

You must have either misunderstood me or just like to argue.

[Fottiti]

No but where did SCH end up?

inb4 "zomg amazing nuking and healing all in one!!"

Dnc is not comparable to Sch in this sense.

You must have either misunderstood me or just like to argue.

I wasn't arguing, I obviously misunderstood that it wasn't a genuine question but sarcasm doesn't always translate in text.

[pchan]

Ninja is useful for anything other than sub job?

same question

[Spider-Dan]

You are obviously not aware of haste samba and the fact that with 5 merits it will take sam from 70% haste to 80% (and provide considerable extra healing power, but that shouldn't come into it on birds), this is equivilent to adding 50% damage, so yes I do think dnc is going to do a lot more than 2x minuet.

Yes it does vary heavily based on average WS damage but optimal buffs for a merit party would only include chaos roll (in terms of what affects WS damage).

IN TERMS OF WHAT AFFECTS WS DAMAGE, is Chaos Roll + Box Step significantly different than double Minuet? No? Then why are you bitching about using double Minuet in my calculations?

But hey, if you want second BRD removed, fine with me. Chaos Roll with relic hat (AND NO SNAKE EYE USED EVER) averages (R)ATK+21.4%. Box Step is DEF-5%. See what those numbers do for you. I did all the heavy lifting already.

Oh, and yes, I obviously know what Haste Samba does. But it doesn't do a damn thing for WS damage, and that's what you claimed was being skewed.

Yes rng is going to average higher WS even while eating sushi vs sam eating subs, but the difference is not nearly as drastic as you have been making out, simply saying rng will have a higher average is not substantive.

Yeah, only 40% more damage per WS (while eating sushi)... that's nothing.

Hypothetical situations where both jobs are capped on ratk aren't really bringing anything to the table because they aren't relevant.

Since you're clearly incapable of understanding the concept of abstract thought, I'll just leave this alone.

The point: the better the party gets, the more it benefits RNG. If you dispute this, show your work.

In fact, why don't you try providing SOME numbers the next time you post. I'm tired of your baseless conjecture.

[Deader2818]

I wasn't aware Ninja got haste samba.

[BadKarma]

In after whitebox rage. Called that like an umpire now didn't I.

[Fottiti]

IN TERMS OF WHAT AFFECTS WS DAMAGE, is Chaos Roll + Box Step significantly different than double Minuet? No? Then why are you bitching about using double Minuet in my calculations?

No 2x minuet isn't significantly different to chaos roll + box step, but why the fuck were you without a cor in the first place? I thought we were talking about the best merit parties. I was making a statement based on 2x minuet + chaos roll vs chaos roll + box step.

Yeah, only 40% more damage per WS (while eating sushi)... that's nothing.

40% is a lot different to the ~doubling you mentioned in an earlier post, but not once did I deny rng will WS for considerably more.

Since you're clearly incapable of understanding the concept of abstract thought, I'll just leave this alone.

The point: the better the party gets, the more it benefits RNG. If you dispute this, show your work.

I'm perfectly capable of abstract thought, but that doesn't change the fact that its irrelevant. We're debating a merit party on greater colibri, you can only have 6 people in the party so why not try and stick to that.

[Tsuko_Asura]

lawl, knew someone was gonna slate me on the kaman. Had a HQ, sold it since was thinking I should pick up rosen+1.

Don't idle in things that just boost your HP in lieu of things that could be improving your accuracy.

[Wrish]

The point: the better the party gets, the more it benefits RNG. If you dispute this, show your work.

That's wrong in at least one case. When you add haste samba, the SAM pulls further ahead, leaving the KC RNG in the dust (lacks Hasso, lacks few points of haste). SAM DD DD BRD COR healer is, however, among the most idealized party setups, so long as other DD equipment is also optimal.

When speaking of KC/Culverin RNG/DRG, the trouble is you'll have a hard time arguing against haste samba. Have you actually seen one of those rangers? They are awful blood tanks; BRD and COR have to take extra care to buff the healer to keep the RNG alive. On the other hand, Yoichi SAM/DRG won't pull hate from decent DD, such that you can ditch the DNC and stick with 3 DD. It's a much better solution than forcing the KC RNG to use Coronach (which has its ideal utility when you don't want melee or enmity).

[Kuwait-cafe]

Mikazki - Unicorn server

Mog bonanza came early for this guy.

JP player.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...116_151304.png

[Konda]

is that a homam head?

[Kamil]

is that a homam head and a Plastron?

ftfy

[Spider-Dan]

No 2x minuet isn't significantly different to chaos roll + box step, but why the fuck were you without a cor in the first place? I thought we were talking about the best merit parties.

I originally ran my numbers with double Minuet only so as to not skew the parse too far in favor of RNG. Double Minuet is actually the worst of all reasonable scenarios (because, you know, the better the party, the more it benefits RNG), so I thought I was doing you a favor.

But you want numbers with BRD COR DNC backline? Fine with me. SAM Namas is 1514, RNG Slug is 2114.

40% is a lot different to the ~doubling you mentioned in an earlier post, but not once did I deny rng will WS for considerably more.

You aren't very good at this whole reading comprehension thing, are you? Context is kind of important, you know. What I said was (emphasis in original, which is really just sad):

I said that with capped accuracy/haste/(R)ATK, RNG would win in a landslide. This should be patently obvious; KC would come very close to outdamaging soboro straight up (faster weapons benefit more from fSTR than slower ones) and slug would be ~doubling Namas.

I was talking about capped RATK, which is probably why I bolded that part. But you're right, RNG only does ~150% of Namas with each Slug at capped RATK, not 200% as I had implied. Score one for the good guys!

Oh, and I missed this juicy nugget from your last post edit:

Edit: If you want numbers on delays based on various buffs then that is easy.

Sam/drg:

450 Delay Weapon
26% Haste (capped at 256/1024 or 25%) in gear
March 1 + 2 + Haste spell 35%
Hasso + Haste Samba 20%
-3% weapon delay, Sword Strap

or 80% haste resulting in a delay of 90

Averaging 1.9 attacks per round at 16.9 tp per hit or an average of 32.11tp per round.

Rng/war:

264 Delay weapon
23% haste in gear
35% magic haste
10% Samba Haste

or 68% haste resulting in a delay of 84

Averaging 3.82 attacks per round at 7tp per hit is 26.74tp per round

So Sam is getting 21% more tp per round whilst swinging 7% slower.

Pretty sneaky, sis! I love how you casually substituted RNG/WAR for RNG/DRG, yet at no point has Berserk even been mentioned! That's what they call a win/win, I suppose.

So let's try this again...

RNG/DRG:

264 Delay weapon
26% haste in gear (256/1024, as you said earlier)
35% magic haste
10% Samba Haste

70% haste resulting in delay of 79

Now SAM is swinging 14% slower. Funny how that works out.

[Kuwait-cafe]

^ yes & yes.

Although he did switch to Shadow breastplate while engaged to a crab.

[Konda]

^ yes & yes.

Although he did switch to Shadow breastplate while engaged to a crab.

oh well thats ok then

[Spider-Dan]

That's wrong in at least one case. When you add haste samba, the SAM pulls further ahead, leaving the KC RNG in the dust (lacks Hasso, lacks few points of haste).

You say "lacks Hasso" as if the two weapons were starting on equal footing. Will SAM have more haste? Sure, but RNG is still attacking faster, and they are TPing at very nearly the same speed, which leaves you with Soboro's melee damage advantage vs. Slug's WS damage advantage.

When speaking of KC/Culverin RNG/DRG, the trouble is you'll have a hard time arguing against haste samba. Have you actually seen one of those rangers? They are awful blood tanks; BRD and COR have to take extra care to buff the healer to keep the RNG alive. On the other hand, Yoichi SAM/DRG won't pull hate from decent DD, such that you can ditch the DNC and stick with 3 DD.

1) no DD will hold hate off of RNG using slug
2) any other DD in party with Soboro/Yoichi SAM or KC RNG is straight leeching; you might as well invite a PLD
3) I think RDM and DNC (DNC with 70% haste, mind you) can handle healing RNG

By the way, when did "this DD takes less damage than you" become a valid argument? What happened to fulltime Hasso/'zerk SAMs that never worry about damage taken? Is a 'zerked Hasso SAM really that much sturdier than a RNG/DRG?

[Shinryuu]

Can my 7hit 80% haste Love SAM come play