Completed Relic/Mythic weapons list

[FailureMidgard]

Using my personal example: One chloris pop per 2 hours, 3 active characters, that's about 198 man-hours to finish. Ulhuadshi was another 90ish. 298 man-hours. Now, preliminary trials:
21 trash NMs @~90 minutes each : 31.5 hours, solo
6 Shoggoth : 2 hours, 3 people, 6 man-hours
6 Farruca Fly : 90 minutes, 2 people, 3 man-hours
8 Chesma : 3 hours, 2 people, 6 man-hours
This puts the grand total at about 344.5 man-hours to get a level 85 Verethragna from scratch.

Let's look at Mandau, using current prices on my server:
4 * 600k = 2.4m
14 * 1300k = 18.2m
61 * 1200k = 73.2m
100 * 600k = 60m
Subtotal: 153.8m
Refund: 30 * 600k = 18m
Total: 135.8m

135.8 / 298 = 455.7k/h for them to be equal. I set my baseline at 750k/h when I focus on gil things(and can go significantly higher), making Mandau75 a BIGGER time investment than Verethragna85.

To get a level 85 relic, you need to do 1500 weaponskills as well as 7000 ws killshots. This is a large part of it, but the weapons posted here are (mostly) 75. 1500 weaponskills @ 30 seconds per is 750 minutes. 12.5 hours. 7000 killshots at 90 seconds per is 10,500 minutes.. this is the meat of the trial. 187.5 hours to finish the lv85 section, though it's very easily automated using even the crappier bots in conjunction with spellcast.

Say you make 750k/h(still can do better than this), you're looking at 181 hours to finish the gil section and 187.5 to finish the trials.. 368.5 hours total. This puts a level 85 mandau at roughly 6.9% more time spent than a level 85 verethragna, boo-fucking-hoo. Most of the relics in this thread are level 75. The only reason people see empyreans as easier is because they use their linkshells to do the tougher trials.. get your whole linkshell to farm gil for you and see how quickly you finish a relic.

Disclaimer: I know La Theine empyreans are a joke and not at all on the same level as relics or Tahrongi empyreans in terms of effort required, however, it seems a bit out of place to only consider some empyreans worth posting. About 46.5 hours for preliminary trials, 12*3=36 for Carabosse, and 33*2=66 for Cirein puts Masamune at roughly 145.5 man-hours or a bit below half of either of the aforementioned weapons. Briareus/Sobek empyreans are pretty easy as well, placing in at around 180-190 man-hours. Unless you're going to distinguish between the types, trying to cockblock pieces from being 'worthy' is kind of fruitless. To be honest, let everyone brag about their weapons, even if La Theine are easy.

Add 10m for attestation and 5m for fragment if your linkshell NEVER does beaucedine/xarcabard. Otherwise, they're a 10 minute opportunity cost x12 or whatever, nothing major either way. If you're in a linkshell that sells attestations most of the popular ones will end up dropping while trying for others anyway though.. axe/polearm/staff are on the same NM and the others are all in groups of 3-4, so in the process of selling attestations you'll get yours at no cost to linkshell(unless you have massive amounts of buyers enqueued or someone else upgrading.. but then it goes for them). Easiest analysis is to add 10m for attestation and 2 man-hours for fragment though, very few shells are truly capped on shadow gear which means they'll do some amount of xarcabard.

No offense, but this is pretty much bullshit and even you know it.
First off - 21 trash NMs at 90 minutes each. Are you fucking kidding me? For 1, it shouldn't be too hard to find 5 people to do the trials together, either for true Emps or WoE version. You find a good time when only 1 of the 5 people will be on (in my case, it's been 3 people per trial), and that 1 person kills shit while the other people are out at work/school/friends/etc. Past this, are you implying it takes 90 minutes to get 1 to pop? I mean, I got that unlucky once, but it seems to me you're counting repop time...which is beyond stupid. Either AFK if you have the time, turn on your amazing bot that can do killshot trials (or is it gonna struggle with a lvl 20 nm?), put a mule there to kill PHs while you do whatever the hell you want with your main, or leave and go make 750k during the 1hr repop time...in fact, just never do all 3 kills back-to-back because it's insanely time inefficient with how you list things. I'd say it's 10hrs absolute max for those first 21 NMs. Seems to me you have some highish standard for gil making, yet you completely over-exaggerate the investment required to kill lvl 30 NMs.
I won't nitpick the VNMs, but that seems high for Chesma, though only by an hour or so...shouldn't be more than 90minutes with 3 people (450min total time), but the last trial is shared across so many weapons...it's not even funny, Gaxe/GKatana/H2H ALL do Chesma. I'm not really sure why you insist on using manhours as your standard, when it's very biased towards making empyreans look harder than they are. I'm personally planning to end up with 2 Empyreans and 3-4 WoE weapons, and I will have done 0 of them solo, and had a bare minimum of 2 people that I shared trials with on every single one - this is out of a pool of like 6 people also, not the entire LS (some whom have already done trials I need to complete). Generally, it comes down to asking 1 extra mage to come help, or just 2boxing it (for some trials, I just played the mage and let my char sit there and do nothing...).

Moving onto relic - congratulations on picking 1 of the cheapest relics out there. Amano, using your prices:

73 silver @ 1.3m = 94.9m
15 jade @ 1.2m = 18m
60 byne @ .6m = 36m
149m (after refund).
It's not a huge difference, but it's still a bit more, and honestly Amano is still on the cheaperish end.

Now let's go back your actual farming of Chloris and Ulhuadoshi, which is also portraying it all wrong.
50 Ulhuadoshi @ ~1.5 per kill is a good 33 kills. We'll say an average of 2 Coins and half a Jewel (I feel these are both low-ball guesses, it's not hard to grellow the vast majority of em). That's 66 coins and 16 jewels. Before we realized how good emps were, we wasted probably 50+ various drops off of the AF3 NMs. People in our shell still go farm their own pops and let them rot, or give them away because they don't care about that empyrean, or any empyrean (and we do your pop your drop for the af3 stuff, but bring a bit more than we need to kill to ensure grellow on the upper tiers). You are sitting here and stating the manhours required, but entirely ignoring the fact that to a lot of people, the empyrean items are -less important- than other drops. Also, at least on my server, virtually every AF3+1 paper sells for 100k (I'm sure you got tons of them). When I finished Masamune, my Carabosse grind was exactly as you listed, I 2-3boxed, or had 1-2 friends help with farming popsets, generally killed Carabosse with 4-5 people...but Cirien Croin was an entirely different matter. All sorts of people were wanting to make their AF3, I asked a bunch of people to hold their pops until I was done with Cara (I had some 25 Lanterns already ruining my inventory), as soon as I finished Cara, we went out 1 night, had 1 party cleave time, 1 party kill CC repeatedly, and 1 party of people leeching exp. The extra manhours spent were 0, except on my personal part, and even that wasn't wasted 'cause I gave away enough jewels for an extra +2 piece. Maybe not everyone is this lucky, but I didn't abuse my shell in any way as far as I can tell (we rotted 12-15 Lanterns before I even started Masamune), and stating the total manhours spent towards me getting Masamune is just warping the story away from reality. I really can't imagine that people were upset to get af3+2 materials from your ulhuadoshis. Moving on to Chloris, if you were gold-box farming, you also got a ton of Lacovie posts, and judging by AH, you are selling belts @ 10m per, may want to subtract the manhours that was worth (we haven't sold one yet, but a lot of people were happy to help -just- for that). I also got a demonring with 2mab for my cor which isn't bad, a few people were happy with Barbutas, and there was millions of gil in income from bullshit stuff like Khroma, scrolls, etc. It also generated exp for a bunch of peoples subjobs/etc, and while I realize you listed active characters, a few people rotated through useful active jobs, and we would have been cleaving time/exp for people elsewhere if we hadn't done it there, so *shrug*. You also netted Iratham kills (you prob wouldn't have 12 kills or w/e without being in zone that much, since his spawn pattern/time up is so fleeting).

Also, the worst part of all this IMO is at the end on the fragments, you acknowledge it's barely out of the way because most shells want shadow items (I know we do)...yet you just completely ignored it elsewhere.

I'm sorry, but empyreans are a joke to make next to a relic. Oh, and better.

[NynJa]

I set my baseline at 750k/h when I focus on gil things(and can go significantly higher)

Yeah...and the only RMT site I found that has direct quotes to sell gil put it at 1 mil for 14$ USD, and you can probably sell for significantly more without a reseller...Shit son u dont need a job!

And as Failure said, your timing example is really fucking horrid. Considering you most likely DO use a bot, the first 21 kills you can do automatically without lifting a finger other than to set the PH and NM to target. The mere fact you can get this done, possibly all the necessary kills, while you're asleep or out or whatever, does not factor whatsoever towards any manhours. The first two VNM's can easily be done in two sittings, or three if you hit a northlands and dont want to bother with northlands[s], or one if you hit the pixies. This doesnt matter, because if you want to be anally retentively efficient, you'd use that repop time to farm more KI's, or start building up your 50x abyssea items, and sitting idly waiting on repop is NOT efficient. So, your timing for the first two VNM's is very flawed, those should not take more than an hour each...unless you're not getting shit done while waiting on repops.


I'm honestly too lazy to go on any further, Failure really covered all of it. For whatever reason, you're attempting to negate just how easy empyrians are to complete. And more importantly, YOU DONT HAVE TO KILLSHOT 7000 FUCKING MOBS, which is by far the most fucking retarded thing SE has ever come up with.

[Yugl]

The question of whether Relic or Empyrean weapons are easier to get is irrelevant in most cases. Two cases I can imagine this conversation being relevant are 1) When the utility of a relic/emp weapon surpasses that of other weapons and the difference in utility between these two weapons is minimal; and 2) The personal ambition is to obtain a relic or empyrean weapon simply for bragging rights and the both weapons meet a sufficient threshold of bragging rights. Other than these two conditions, the conversation is irrelevant since you always strive for what is best or best within one's "limits" rather than what is easier to obtain. If we are discussing one of these two conditions (Perhaps 1), narrowing down that selection of weapons will help or hurt either of your arguments.

[FailureMidgard]

The question of whether Relic or Empyrean weapons are easier to get is irrelevant in most cases. Two cases I can imagine this conversation being relevant are 1) When the utility of a relic/emp weapon surpasses that of other weapons and the difference in utility between these two weapons is minimal; and 2) The personal ambition is to obtain a relic or empyrean weapon simply for bragging rights and the both weapons meet a sufficient threshold of bragging rights. Other than these two conditions, the conversation is irrelevant since you always strive for what is best or best within one's "limits" rather than what is easier to obtain. If we are discussing one of these two conditions (Perhaps 1), narrowing down that selection of weapons will help or hurt either of your arguments.

Not saying there's some huge relevance, it's mostly just academic, but Thorny is trying to say people are wrong for calling Empyreans easier, and I don't think he has the right idea at all. I agree with Nynja it is hardly an accomplishment to finish one...yea, it takes a little dedication, and a little time, but it's really not even in the same ballpark as relics in my personal opinion, and his comparison was just skewed. In practice, sure - there's no real reason to do a relic, I would say unless you buy gil, but even then I think relic trials alone are more effort or "extra" manhours spent than the entire empyrean. In any case, I agree it doesn't matter in the end, but it is a valid "complaint" I guess, and it is way easier to finish an empyrean.

Oh also, something I forgot to list - 2hrs/3chars per pop seems really high...we did about 4hrs tonight and finished I think 4 full pops with 4 active characters (Ok, we actually had some 10 active characters for the first 15minutes to cap lights, all of which then switched jobs and leeched...woohoo my rng did 72>85).

[D44kpunk]

mythics are the hardest to get imo, followed closesly by maat's cap

[NynJa]

The question of whether Relic or Empyrean weapons are easier to get is irrelevant in most cases. Two cases I can imagine this conversation being relevant are 1) When the utility of a relic/emp weapon surpasses that of other weapons and the difference in utility between these two weapons is minimal; and 2) The personal ambition is to obtain a relic or empyrean weapon simply for bragging rights and the both weapons meet a sufficient threshold of bragging rights. Other than these two conditions, the conversation is irrelevant since you always strive for what is best or best within one's "limits" rather than what is easier to obtain. If we are discussing one of these two conditions (Perhaps 1), narrowing down that selection of weapons will help or hurt either of your arguments.

If I'm wrong, call me out on it, but isnt the whole point of the completed relic/mythic thread made because these things, to 99% of the playerbase who own them, actually took a long as fuck time to complete, and actually warranted the attention? I say 99% of the playerbase because you have some LS's who liquidate everything to just amass currency from every server without care...but that was how many relics (and most were b& lol). Mythics were around for how long? 3 years...and how many exist? Empyrians have been around for what? Since Visions was released, 5 months, and how many exist already? They're a fucking joke.

[Yugl]

I don't think you understood my post.

[NynJa]

it is 4am... z.z

and before anyone wants to go "umad u cant get one"....I have no interest for one on Nynja, but its crossed my mind to get the sword on my mule for lulz.

[FailureMidgard]

mythics are the hardest to get imo

I'll agree with that, and assume the rest was sarcasm.

[S N K]

And more importantly, YOU DONT HAVE TO KILLSHOT 7000 FUCKING MOBS, which is by far the most fucking retarded thing SE has ever come up with.

I'm gonna totally agree with this part. After seeing several people working on their weapons and being forced to do that shit, *Rhealana for example* I really think SE just wanted to punish relic holders for no reason other then to pump their puds as watching them jump thru hoops for that oh so awesome +2 more DMG.

[Thorny]

Oh also, something I forgot to list - 2hrs/3chars per pop seems really high...we did about 4hrs tonight and finished I think 4 full pops with 4 active characters (Ok, we actually had some 10 active characters for the first 15minutes to cap lights, all of which then switched jobs and leeched...woohoo my rng did 72>85).

Addressing the majority of your post first, then quoted portion: I had the gil to do a relic, now I have $3000 more and a better weapon, so obviously I'm going to support Empyrean a bit. However, I don't think you of all people would deny the ability to make 750k/h, one ws per 30 seconds, or one kill per 90 seconds: They're all very reasonable estimates for a higher end player. You can accurately say MOST people won't make 750k/h, but most people won't be trioing chloris pops/kills every 1-2 hours either so I don't see it as a valid counterpoint. I could be wrong, maybe you think they're bad estimates. If so, feel free to correct me. That said, if you do agree they're fair estimates, then how can you call a Tahrongi empyrean notably easier? I made a clear statement regarding La Theine at the end of my post(Could mention konschtat, but it's more or less the same as briareus and who cares about staves).

Regarding the quote, did you have some form of key items saved? I was cleaving 1.5-2 families at a time throughout my farming, and while the start was nice because of misc items people already had.. after a bit you start to cap on specific key items and floor additionals. I easily went 2 hours between pops for the last 25 buds, and any key items saved from before the farming still cost time to obtain. I went on a streak where it took me 5 hours to get a mossy adamantoise shell, despite all of my characters having 3/4 sets.. everything in there is waste. You can debate the value of people holding key items for you as well, but it's still value and requires additional characters present. You could even say a Tahrongi Empyrean is only 75% of a relic nowadays, but byne+shell relics back in the day were at least that much different from bronze+shell.. and you don't call them fake.

One last thing I feel obligated to mention regarding this debate:
Next patch, empyreans will likely need at least 50 more items from another Abyssea NM. Relics will likely need 2000 more weaponskill killshots. While it's difficult to predict the way this will go, SE could very well be planning on this as a measure of evening difficulty out.

Oh, and most importantly, this was only brought up because Nynja is butthurt that empyreans are outdoing relics after the time he put into his relics. While this isn't bad, it sure does look douchey to tell people their weapons don't deserve a spot in the thread because they're marginally easier. The difference between a relic and a tahrongi empyrean is less than the difference between a tahrongi empyrean and a la theine one.

[EjinCaitsith]

I easily went 2 hours between pops for the last 25 buds, and any key items saved from before the farming still cost time to obtain. I went on a streak where it took me 5 hours to get a mossy adamantoise shell, despite all of my characters having 3/4 sets.. everything in there is waste.

So you could stop cleaving to kill Iratham 12 times, but not stop for 5min to proc a red !! and kill Chukwa?

Cleaving has it's strong points, but doing it for 100% of the Empy and flooring ANY KI's you get from cleaving is a total waste. Most can be farmed and killed in a matter of 10-30min(eyelid being the exception), it's not like people ever kill the timed spawn ones anymore either. 5 hours waiting on 1 KI sounds ridiculous, especially with the fact you could have killed Chukwa 5-10 times in that period.

I also don't understand why you would leave and change for every Chloris either, thus having to re-enter and cap lights, which is a massive pain+time sink. I'm not saying to farm every KI, but if you have 3x 3/4 set then you should farm to finish your sets and not floor KI's at all. In my personal opinion it's better to go in with 3: war+rdm+whm. Rdm can use 2x regen/vit atmas, and with a decent -PDT set, it can pull all(most) mandies for the war. Whm keeps the war alive cure bombing(it's not like they live that long anywyas with war getting priority on 2hr boxes). Chloris fight would be just as easy with this set up and you'd never have to leave the zone. With the same 3 you can cover 10/13 red !!'s if you ever need to finish a set by killing a NM.

I'm not sure if we're strictly speaking of 3man, but 6 people could easily finish any of the Tahrongi Empyrean in 20-25hrs(not necessarily all at once). 3 people cleaving and 3 people farming the KI's needed to finish sets. With 6 you can also kill Glavoid and not floor the 30+ shell worth of KI's you probably did(our group of 6-7 did 50 shell+bud in 5 5-6hour runs in the course of 1 week). I guess you'd say that's 150-200 man hours for the first part, but doing 50% of TWO empy weapon that destroys it's relic counterpart in under a week hardly makes it on par with a relics difficulty to obtain. When i was doing relic it took me a month alone to find/buy currency, and 4-5 months for GK paper after i bought all the currency.

That being said i do agree Empys deserve to be posted and be recognized.

[NynJa]

Oh, and most importantly, this was only brought up because Nynja is butthurt that empyreans are outdoing relics after the time he put into his relics. While this isn't bad, it sure does look douchey to tell people their weapons don't deserve a spot in the thread because they're marginally easier. The difference between a relic and a tahrongi empyrean is less than the difference between a tahrongi empyrean and a la theine one.

Yup, I'm the only one with this opinion...

[Thorny]

I'm not sure where you get the impression I left and changed for every Chloris or didn't kill plain mobs.. I killed maybe 8 Chloris on MNK, and most of them were 'last pop' of the night.. left with pop and did on MNK the next day for blue !! and augur gloves. I never once changed just for chloris, popping fanatics powders/PD makes it a joke on WAR RDM SMN anyway, even if less ideal than MNK. As far as farming Chukwa manually, I went 0/3 on the key item during that time period from it(people were actively camping it, didn't have NIN or much luck with red.. but also didn't exhaust all of my WS because it died really quickly anyway and I'd had pretty good luck with his key item before that). Could have saved a bit of time, but in the long run I don't see how you can get a Chloris pop below 6 man-hours realistically. If you farm both Chloris+Glavoid with 6, yes, you're making better use of your key items.. but you also require twice the manpower, and time spent killing Glavoid.. I have a hard time believing you'd do noticably better in terms of man-hours. Really, you seem intelligent enough, but you aren't giving me any credit.. half of what you said was based on unfound assumptions.

The real debate is whether they're in the same league, and honestly, I don't see how it could be considered otherwise. Relic has less side rewards for sure, but any argument about player inefficiency applies to both methods. Is empyrean easier? Definitely, especially La Theine. Is it completely ridiculous to put them on the same level? Not at all. I mentioned this last post, but I'd like to say it again because very few people seem to recognize it: Relic weapons will get another 2000 WS-Kill trial, while Empyrean weapons will get another 50-item trial if the pattern continues next patch. While it depends on the NM, this will do quite a bit in terms of balance between the weapon attainability. Another note is that lv75 relic is notably easier than lv80 empyrean and gets far more benefit.. lv80 empyreans are complete trash.

Last thought: Have you done cleave on a decent amount of targets without a SMN? WHM RDM WAR sounds fine at first, but ~35 mobs hitting for ~80 each is a lot of damage.. I don't see it being reasonable/possible, even fulltiming pdt gear given you won't get access to staff. Of course, I could be wrong, but you were operating on the assumption that I couldn't kill Chloris as is.. which makes it mostly irrelevant unless for some reason you need a WHM for something else.

Yup, I'm the only one with this opinion...

You're the only person butthurt enough to make a statement like that. I was thinking the same thing about Masamune vs Tahrongi, but didn't speak up. The option to do an Empyrean Weapon is available to you too, you know.

[NynJa]

If speaking my mind about honest facts is considered butthurt, then I guess I'm butthurt. It doesnt change the fact that Empyrians are disgustingly easy to obtain, regardless how you want to break them down with your manhour counts, gilfarming methods, street currency, anything. Nor does it change the fact that even if I've made the original 'butthurt' statement, others have openly agreed with the statement, including people who HAVE Empyrians (the part of its ease atleast). Even if you are having such horrible shit garbage luck getting that last Key Item, and you're rotting all the others because it wont load, as its been said all you need is to take one Ninja and one Warrior and trigger red!! off whichever NM's KI is being stingy, thats all you need, two jobs, instead of wasting time rolling the dice on galka chests and being inefficient.

[Thorny]

In the long run, it's not going to save much time. Sure, the times where you are 3/4 x#, you can cut off a bit of time by farming the NM manually, but no change to method is going to cut man-hours by a noticable amount compared to the way I did it. Carabosse empyreans are a joke, briareus/kukulkan are pretty easy. They could use a difficulty buff. Glavoid/Chloris ones are comparable to relics, and honestly, will be equal after next patch in all likelihood. Who knows, maybe the easier ones will get a significantly harder NM next patch.. though all the scars ones were pretty similar. Taking a NIn and a WAR along with whatever else is needed to kill the mob isn't a quick fix, it rrequires more people and more effort as well as a possible light dump.. when applicable it's a small timesaver. I red !!ed every Amun I did, just didn't bother much with tahrongi because far and away the fastest way to farm popsets is through gold chests.

Really though, nothing on these forums will impress anyone, we could delete all these threads and the only difference would be a few less people we've never heard of bragging. I don't see the point trying to devalue empyreans, even though it's perfectly understandable you'd be mad you cheated yourself out of $3-4k.

[EjinCaitsith]

Well, it's just personal preference i guess. We've pulled literally every mandy at once w/o fana/PD and it goes just fine with cure5/6. 300tp+MS+sekki+WC 1st 2 WS you can get off kills 1/2 instantly and you're left with only 15-20 hitting you. There was rarely a time i never got a 2hr box or had a back up revit. If i didn't have those i'd use a fana or someone else would use a fana powder.

You're right i did assume you didn't kill it on war. I honestly didn't think that combo would work but it's cool to see it can. Would it be highly dependent on 2hrs being up? I guess only bonus for whm instead of smn is you could kill it w/o anyones 2hr being used and/or save the wars 2hr for cleave.

As for being in the same league of difficulty in future updates, it's all speculation. I agree that you're correct in that they will probably need another 50 items to upgrade, at which point they will be closer to a relics effort to obtain. As of now though... it's not even close. 90% of people don't have your bots to do trials for them or to farm them 150m in 1 week. If we are being realistic and assume people actually play the game, it's no contest, relic is by far harder to upgrade to 75(and then to 85). Not only in sheer time of obtaining currency be it 1)farming the gil 2)sponsoring or both. It's not even relevant anymore because no one is dumb enough to do a relic, but back when people were, it wasn't exactly easy to find all the currency to buy either(at fair prices).

[Thorny]

All of those time estimates were without bots.. not sure how that plays into anything.

750k/hr.
30 seconds per ws.
90 seconds per mob(you can do EP).

How are any of those unreasonable by today's standards? The only at all questionable one is gil, which is tough since if I mention the methods I use it devalues them.. but there are always ways to do it. Pay attention to the market. If you want to keep referring back to a week, you need to take into account how many people you used: 6 people farming gil solid for the amount of time you spent doing your empyrean is a TON of gil potential if they aren't morons. You keep talking about bots, but they change nothing about the time estimate: you're simply overlooking the fact that empyreans took SIX people's effort and a relevant comparison uses man-hours, not group-hours.

[EjinCaitsith]

It's always going to come back to the gil/hr you're claiming and the reasons why the other people are there helping. In our case everyone will get a Empy, but none have the means, be it gil, will power, or the RL time to farm for 200hrs to get gil to buy a relic. Doing abyssea in general is fun, Dynamis is not, farming gil is not. The only time i'd agree the people helping are getting nothing is the first stage, which would be wasted man hours in your eyes i guess, but the second stage for all Empy have the added bonus of AF3 +1 and +2 mats which is enough reason for anyone to help out. On the flip side there is obsoletely 0 reason for anyone to help someone doing relic trials other than sheer kindness or if you pay them for any of the stages.

[Thorny]

Farming gil is more dry, yes, and the second stage is easier to obtain help. This doesn't change that the first stage is still total horseshit, especially for Tahrongi. I've said multiple times that relics are easier with all factors considered, but people keep skimming over the points I made in my original post and only picking out excerpts that fit their argument. All I said was that they require similar man-hours and shouldn't be considered notably different in difficulty.. which is true, though there is no denying it's more interesting doing an empyrean than farming gil for that long consecutively. It seems you agree with this anyway, my problem is with the amount of people skimming my original post and misquoting me.