Completed Relic/Mythic weapons list

[Kyte]

It's implied that he should test the 90 version, but chances are he won't repost about it getting to 90; therefore now is the time to ask.


EDIT: Ya, i was thinking low PDIF and/or the +accuracy on it mattering.

[lolwut]

Before anyone says anything, we told him. We know, it sucks.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j8...7_191609-1.png

Congrats on your new toy Kaus.

The GS I'm ok with. The NQ body?

[Byrthnoth]

I mean there is no reason to post now if he is maybe one of those players with not much time and will have 90 in a month.

Anyway I have no idea how you imagine this can beat Caladbolg. It would need to be like +50% crit and in very low pdif situation? Maybe someone will want to make a math for this, I am to tired.

I thought the testing put Level 90 Ragnarok at +20% Crit rate from traits with another +10% from Scourge?
Torcleaver = fTP of 5.2~5.5, 60% VIT (including DA)
Ragnarok = fTP of ~4.2~4.5, 40% MND, 40% CHR (including DA)

In situations where crits double your damage (~cRatio post level correction = 1.1-1.2ish outside Abyssea, 2 inside Abyssea with RR), I'd say that Ragnarok is very competitive. If Scourge could crit, it would be competitive in pretty much all situations.

So Ragnarok in Abyssea is probably competitive with/superior to Caladbolg on pretty much any NM or VT monster. Razed Ruins is crazy, and makes crits more than double damage. Well, not entirely true because you have a base crit rate and Ragnarok/weapon is only increasing it. I'd have to re-run the math and I don't feel like it.

[Atoreis]

It would need to be something around 10% crit, 1.5pDIF and 80%accuracy as base and Ragnarok pumping it to 50% crit rate and 95% accuracy to slightly beat caladbolg. That is for outside. Inside it doesn't matter because DRK is not relevant inside.

[Koyangi]

It would need to be something around 10% crit, 1.5pDIF and 80%accuracy as base and Ragnarok pumping it to 50% crit rate and 95% accuracy to slightly beat caladbolg. That is for outside. Inside it doesn't matter because DRK is not relevant inside.

[Atoreis]

[Byrthnoth]

In any situation where Acc is not an issue (all situations at the moment?) Caladbolg and Ragnarok will have the same cRatio, same multi-attack rate, the same crit damage boost, and aftermath up the same percentage of the time.

If you calculate it this way, Ragnarok's DPS is better than or very similar to Caladbolg's up to cRatio = 1.7ish. Combine it with the gigantic Accuracy Bonus that potentially lets you drop Acc in gear for more Attack or other stats, and you end up with a pretty solid all around weapon. I think I would probably pick Ragnarok between the two at the moment, but I don't think I'm in danger of having that decision forced upon me.

Spoiler: show

Average hit damage related to level corrected cRatio with fSTR=0, 5% crit damage, and 5% ODD assumed. 2H cRatio caps out at 2.25 against EM and lower monsters, and caps out lower than that against anything worth talking about.

Forgot to say, but Ragnarok is the darker blue and Caladbolg is the lighter blue.

If you're going to argue for Caladbolg, I think you have to do it from a Torcleaver > Scourge standpoint. VIT is more convenient to stack, and you get the mod right on the weapon. You basically have 60% of trash and 80% of trash as your mods, and then a substantial fTP difference. I always assume that people have a 25 TP Bonus earring if they're using an Empyrean WS that's strongly TP modded.

Based on some arbitrary numbers:
4*(121+10+47) = 712 base damage for Scourge (70 MND and 70 CHR)
5.3*(120+10+51) = 959 base damage for Torcleaver (~100 VIT?)

So I'd say Ragnarok's biggest problem at the moment is how atrocious Scourge is as a weaponskill. It has been hurting for a re-work for a long long time, and maybe some day they'll do it.

Edit: Just as a reference, my post-level correction cRatio on Dancer on a recent Dynamis NM with Dia II, Box Steps, and Red Curry Bun (~600 Attack for me, -19% DEF for him) was effectively no more than 0.5. I saw a hit for .25 pDIF (10 damage with Twashtar, minimum base damage of 43), which pegs it below 0.7 (where pDIF floor is ~0.4). This depends on whether or not these NMs have innate PDT though.
Point is though, say it's secretly only 600 Defense with 50% PDT that uses level correction to make up the difference. That's still going to leave a DRK with 900 Attack around 1.6 cRatio. Right at the border of where Caladbolg's DPS surpasses Ragnarok's. If you're going to argue that you aren't using it in Abyssea, you'll need to also argue that Torcleaver is so much better than Scourge that it overcomes the DPS difference (probably true).

[Atoreis]

What is 5% ODD? I tho relics now are 8-10% and Ragnarok is 2.5x not 2x.

In my fast made sheet Ragnarok surpasses Caladbolg dps even on pDIF 2.0 assuming:
Caladbolg 95% acc 10% crit
Ragnarok 95% acc 40% crit

The problem is it is only 1% ahead at pDIF 2.0 and 14% at pDIF 1.0 and since Ratio for DRK is about 60:40 for melee and Torcleaver is about 20% stronger then Scourge then it makes them only equal at low pdif and caladbolg better at higher. Don't lie yourself also that you always WS at 100% which favors caladbolg too not only the damage from WS but also ODD.

What makes Ragnarok better is full use from accuracy because then it's melee is about 30% higher at pDIF 1.0 but then again you can use marinara and assuming you then lose 100 attack from red curry which let you go from 1.5 to 1.66 pDIF on 600 def mob it's going back to 16% better melee on Ragnarok which again put both weapons very close because of Torc>Scourge.

To make Ragnarok really triumph over Caladbolg you would need some 600 def (after dia) and 15-20 lvls higher mob then Ragnarok's melee would be around 40-70% higher then Caladbolg destroying it hardly.

Summing this up, if you are a career DRK then you should get Ragnarok for really tough mobs because it shines a lot at them. You will use Caladbolg and/or Apoc 95% of the time tho.

[Byrthnoth]

Haha, forgot. With 1.1 and 2.5, image turns into this:


So Ragnarok pretty much always beats Caladbolg on DPS without factoring in WSs. More so if you have times with aftermath down. It gets an average of half the Damage-increasing bonus all the time then anyway. Much less ground to make up:
0.1*2.5 + 0.9*1 = 1.15
0.3*2 + 0.7 = 1.3

[Atoreis]

0.1*2.5 + 0.9*1 = 1.15
0.3*2 + 0.7 = 1.3

yes I used this for my calculation

[Byrthnoth]

What do your calculations say if you increase Scourge's level 90 modifier from 1.25 to 1.35?

[Atoreis]

What do your calculations say if you increase Scourge's level 90 modifier from 1.25 to 1.35?

You mean WS bonus?

If you mean WS bonus then you need to gimme like 20-30 min because if you want exact % with Ws I need to find best set for Scourge and put it in my WS calc and check exact ratio etc. If i already would make it I want to make it good.

[Byrthnoth]

Yeah, the Level 90 WS bonus. Right now Scourge gets an extra +25% damage, so what if they bump that up to +35% by 99 (or do something else that approximately increases the damage by 10%, like changing CHR -> STR)?

[Atoreis]

Yeah, the Level 90 WS bonus. Right now Scourge gets an extra +25% damage, so what if they bump that up to +35% by 99 (or do something else that approximately increases the damage by 10%, like changing CHR -> STR)?

Ok 3 situation:

Extreme:
Mob 600 def 110lv
Rag pDIF ~0,42 (Marinara) 0,95 acc
Cala pDIF ~0,42 (marinara) 0,77 acc
Melee: 74,89% higher for Ragnarok
WS: 21% higher for Caladbolg
Ragnarok Ratio 71:29 for melee
Cala Ratio 59:41 for melee
Winner: Ragnarok

High:
Mob 550 def 105lv
Rag pDIF ~0,97 (red curry) 0,95 acc
Cala pDIF ~0,79 (marinara) 0,95 acc
DPS: 38,83% higher for Ragnarok
WS: 1% higher for Ragnarok
Ragnarok Ratio 64:36 for melee
Cala Ratio 56:44 for melee
Winnder: Ragnarok


Medium:
Mob 450 def 95lv
Rag pDIF ~1,86 (red curry) 0,95 acc
Cala pDIF ~1,86 (red curry) 0,95 acc
DPS: 4% higher for Ragnarok
WS: 21,77% higher for Caladbolg
Ragnarok Ratio 60:40 for melee
Cala Ratio 55:45 for melee
Winner: Caladbolg


Going lower max advantage for Torc over scourge is about 20% and max advantage of Ragnarok melee over Cala is about 1,5%.

With 0,35 medium one would look like this

Medium:
Mob 450 def 95lv
Rag pDIF ~1,86 (red curry) 0,95 acc
Cala pDIF ~1,86 (red curry) 0,95 acc
DPS: 4% higher for Ragnarok
WS: 12,75% higher for Caladbolg
Ragnarok Ratio 59:41 for melee
Cala Ratio 55:45 for melee
Winner: Caladbolg still but by about 7% instead of 15%

[Koyangi]

Was loling at the DRK inside of Abyssea part.

[Atoreis]

Was loling at the DRK inside of Abyssea part.

Sorry I forgot that statement beside being the true is also funny :D

[dongo]

Two things that i want for Ragnarok

Job ability like sneak attack but for the front for drk...60 second timer ~ this would allow us to get full benifits of rr in aby.


Scourge after math to boost crit damage not crit %. ~ maybe around 20% damage +

[Hyriu]

lol

[Nameless]

What if Ragnarok's critical IV bonus is only 15%? Will that make a big difference on the comparison? I have read some JP tests that the increase is extremely small from II to III and III to IV, like 1-2% each time.

[Niiro]

Why they can't simply put "Crit rate +X%" like on......every other weapon that increases crit rate is just SE logic at work I suppose.

But 2% certainly sounds much more like SE as well.