Completed Relic/Mythic weapons list

[S N K]

BLU is not a DD. Not sure what this has to do with the discussion. Still no backup on why koga is so inferior in legion beside "my friend is SAM and he comes WAR". BG math 2012.

That means MNK isn't either then.

I'm waiting for Pchan to come out with spread sheet data to reflect that blu isn't a DD. I have a semi topical question:
Anybody collect 150 Scoria ?

A JP did for her Mythic Dagger and finished it. There's a pic of her here on this thread somewhere I think.

[Detzu]

It's the other way around, koga only wins to a normal DD by ~10% when buffs are super high. Considering you can never afford to get AM3 without losing DPS, including from intial WS, it's about as subpar as other mythics.

You should give numbers cause some ppl refer to parse and will think Koga is ahead by 50%, for example : Koga sam 30% dmg and ukon war 20% instead of Koga sam 30% and ukon war 27%.

[pchan]

Idk if I must explain to BG what a % is, I might as well give up right now.

[Yugl]

Locking buffs is basic but you're re-cycling buffs between waves breaking your lock on the portal countless times whilst waiting on repops / reaggro. With all the will in the world, you're still losing some buff time.

I realise the spreadsheet accounts for over-TP'ing but it isn't an accurate representation of what happens in Legion imho.


From my POV it's simple. Same player, same buffs (2x 99 Harp/Horn BRDs + 2 CORs rotating between parties), same mobs, same players on other DD's. He parses noticeably worse with Koga than Ukon / Rag. This isn't a one-off, this is consistent over multiple parses and we're not talking negligible amounts either. Given that SAM is his life and soul, if he was going to play any job better it would be that one but he's an excellent DD regardless so all weapons are getting fair/equal representation in my honest opinion.

The spreadsheet could say the Koga doubles Rag / Ukon but that does not match what happens in practice for whatever reason (I am aware it does not say it doubles them before anyone suggests that is what I think it says). Koga is undoubtedly a good weapon but does it beat Rag/Ukon in Legion? No, not in my experience. Elsewhere? Situationally I am sure it does.

Lets be clear though, pchan isn't debating whether WAR beats SAM. He's saying the math suggests SAM should win. If your SAM isn't consistently beating the WAR, then the DPS sheet is missing some feature of legion that is creating the discrepancy. He offered one suggestion which was that the DPS sheet only displays maximum output using optimal conditions (Back-to-back AM3 via 300% TP ready). Your initial explanation was rejected because the DPS sheet accounts for the discrepancies listed (ex: Over-TP rounds). Maybe the DPS doesn't do enough to represent over-TP, but that would just be a matter of increasing the displayed number.

[Jem]

It doesn't do enough no. It assumes people are capable of hitting their WS Macro with robot like precision (since afaik, the spreadsheet merely calculates over-TP due to multihits not due to human error). It also assumes that you can WS whenever TP is available which is not true due to debuffs and/or waiting to be topped HP/mob to TP.

There are too many sources of outside interference that the spreadsheet does not account for. It's fine for if you're fighting a brick wall with unlimited HP that does not fight back and can hit your macros with perfect timing. It is not representative of what happens in practice.

* You can't wear optimum DD gear in Legion (well you can, but you will die).
* It assumes being able to TP perfectly (as detailed above)
* It doesn't account for the myriad of debuffs that will hit you, some of which will have a serious impact on your damage output (Amnesia, Terror, Stun, severe and hyper Paralyze, Slow, Encumbrance which wipes AM, Dispel/Purgation, Bind/Heavy grav between mobs and even Death)
* It assumes all mobs in there have Ig-Alima like stats along with -30% crit rate which is not the case
* It doesn't account for running between mobs during waves or running between the portal/mobs before/after waves
* It assumes all buffs are up fulltime which is not the case
* It doesn't account for overwhelm not always being available


The list goes on, that's just off the top of my head.

The spreadsheet is good as a starting tool but unless it's applied properly and compared to actual performance, it's pointless as it's too idealized. It represents the perfect scenario and sweet spot of DD output which rarely ever occurs in practice, nevermind for prolonged periods of time.

It doesn't matter if Koga SAM or whatever job/weapon beats everything in the spreadsheet if it then loses handily in practice due to scenarios that aren't accounted for in the spreadsheet.

EDIT: I don't disagree with Pchan that Koga wins in the spreadsheet as I am sure it does. The point I'm making is that the spreadsheet doesn't represent what actually occurs. I didn't respond to Pchan directly until he said I was 'claiming' we didn't use our Koga (i.e. suggests he didn't believe me)

[pchan]

I'm sorry my math doesn't account for - crit% on mob. However motenten' spreadhseet does and obviously this will favor SAM. The only thing that can severaly decrease SAM is likely overwhelm, but hey it's not specific to legion. Nor is the fact that buff wear off at some point and pretty much everything you said. There is no reason for a mythic to be less efficient in legion and more efficient outside of legion. The DOT performance of koga is not awesome (38%), however war is only 55% and ragnarok DRk is only 52%. There can be either one answer, either koga is unsuable on every content which I can certainly understand, or it works anywhere. Again, my numbers are only maximum value as it's not possible to maintain AM3 (same goes for for AM3 ukkon, and to a lesser extend AM3 vere though in this case of monk going from AM3 to AM1 is minor loss). Technically it's not possible in this case to keep it on WAR either. So both DPS are greatly decreased compared to the spreadsheet. I'm all for the argument that overtp is decreasing koga's output but then don't argue that mnk fails because it's outputting between 60 and 70% dot with an everage WS dmg equal to war.

[Yugl]

The biggest differences are the strict locking and some of the stuff suggested. Unlike ADL locks, you have a bit of leeway for buffs and "unlocking" (ex: You can save Meditate for between fights and use that to regain a majority of your TP before popping ADL). Such luxury does not exist when trying to keep DDs at roughly the same song duration. As mentioned, you have travel time matters. If that means you need to adjust WAR's AM for this purpose, then do so.

* You can't wear optimum DD gear in Legion (well you can, but you will die).
* It assumes being able to TP perfectly (as detailed above)
* It doesn't account for the myriad of debuffs that will hit you, some of which will have a serious impact on your damage output (Amnesia, Terror, Stun, severe and hyper Paralyze, Slow, Encumbrance which wipes AM, Dispel/Purgation, Bind/Heavy grav between mobs and even Death)
* It assumes all mobs in there have Ig-Alima like stats along with -30% crit rate which is not the case
* It doesn't account for running between mobs during waves or running between the portal/mobs before/after waves
* It assumes all buffs are up fulltime which is not the case
* It doesn't account for overwhelm not always being available

Taking issue with the bold (to some degree). You can wear optimal DD gear if you're stunning moves or killing fast enough. The only ones I would suggest otherwise would be the turtle and PD-less Gallu. Full duration AM3 has been mentioned as an issue, but if you're referring to other buffs, that technically favors SAM since WAR uses more duration JAs than SAM. That said, locking significantly increases the duration of buffs (buff at the start and you'll at least have a full round of non-Warycry/Blood Rage buffs).

[Yugl]

double.

[pchan]

I'm fairly sure you should lock your war (as well as all DD) because of berserk/last resort/impetus etc anyway. As such locking all the DDs will certainly increase the output of everyone.

[EjinCaitsith]

WAR, DRK and Ryu DRG have decisive advantages in events like Legion and ADL. Due to the particular short nature of these events and the fact that it's so easy to maintain high-tier buffs because it's possible to lock 2hrs of buffers.

WAR: Basically comes down to Mighty Strikes. Nothing will ever come close to touching a MSing WAR, and often the 60 seconds of pure devastation is enough to top it out on the overall parse.

DRG(Ryu): While negating the attack penalty on drakesbane is often hard, these events make it easily possible, even when /sam. Having a full powered drakes, even on mobs with crit defense, is still a powerhouse.

DRK: Souleater. If DRK is able to fully utilize souleater, it will always be at the top.

Those are the key things that are missing in this DPS discussion. All will greatly boost the job's DPS, while Koga SAM really has nothing else to boost its DPS. SAM's advantage comes from where it's always come, benefiting the substantial attack boost on their WS while other jobs are uncapped. If other jobs are buffed to the teeth, SAM loses ground.

[Jem]

I don't think over-TP is the critical factor. I'd say it's that you have to Rana more often than in the perfect scenario due to the nature of the event.

And honestly, the MNK comment was throwaway. We've never taken one into Legion so I couldn't give you an honest first hand opinion of how they fair. Our 99 Spharai unfortunately, for her, is also a 99 Gjallar/Daur BRD (she also never gets to use her 99 Brav). The rest are 90 Vere/95 Spharai and competing against 99 Ukon / Ragnas for slots or have those weapons themselves.


In theory yes you can wear optimal DD gear. However every group I go with uses the SCH stun strat, every group forces DD's to use Hybrid gear and yet in every group DD's still frequently die. Moves are going to get through and DD's are going to die. Before you say my groups must therefore suck, we consistently kill 18-25 in NQ chambers and multiple Wave 3's in Mul (2-3) so we're by no means terrible.

As for the buffs comment. Buffers sometimes die, sometimes shit gets dispelled. And maintaining AM3 costs more net DPS than usual (or the spreadsheet suggests) say if you lose buffs, get encumbered, get slowed, paralyzed, die, etc. It also isn't as effective if you get amnesia'ed. A Koga loses far more from those debuffs than say, for example, a Ragnarok that isn't reliant on keeping AM up.


RE: Locking buffs. I don't think I'm getting my point across as clear as I should. What I mean is that you aren't getting full use of AM3 duration because you're losing it when running between mobs in waves / start/end of wave. Even when locking it, you're losing some time as you will be event skipped multiple times when being rebuffed waiting on wave repops / PLD reaggroing. Obviously you do still get AM3 but 1 300TP Rana is not 3 mins of AM3 if you know what I mean. You have to 300TP Rana a lot more frequently than every 3 mins worth of useable AM3.

[Fake]

I don't think over-TP is the critical factor. I'd say it's that you have to Rana more often than in the perfect scenario due to the nature of the event.

This, above all, is what will affect how mythics perform in reality vs spreadsheet. I can't think of any events where you will get even close to a perfect scenario. Even in the events people have said koga excels (ADL farming but not actually ADL) there will be a lot of short periods of downtime. You won't have a non-stop feed of mobs for the duration of AM and the last mob dying just as it wears off every time as you run between different locations, you likely won't have 300tp ready every time you get to next target.

Obviously you can adjust how you play and reduce these things but you will never get anywhere near the numbers based on a perfect scenario.

[Taint]

Meditate fixes a lot of the AM3 issues for SAM and is one of the main reasons Koga is such a bad ass weapon.

Down time = med to start with 300tp. (or atleast 200tp)

No down time = med to get to 300tp extremely fast to restart AM3.

[Yugl]

Not really within Legion. Lets think of it this way, if you're locking buffs, AM3 duration becomes unknown. That means you may have a sense of when the duration will wear, but the actual wear will be unexpected. If your SAM is meditate dependent, that mean they're taking 15s to gain 100TP at some point, but when is unknown.

AM3 wears while running to lock => Can't do shit unless you're content with being the guy who wastes buff duration
AM3 wears while running to the mob/right after a buff => Best case scenario and outcome depends on speed/distance tbh
AM3 wears midfight => If you're really taking advantage of meditate, you're really talking about a 15s delay to benefit from 100 TP (Assuming that is the case since SAM was mentioned specifically) and that's roughly 1/4th the fight (varies) you've spend just building AM3 + using Rana. By that point, others should have thrown at least 2 WS.

[Fake]

Meditate fixes a lot of the AM3 issues for SAM and is one of the main reasons Koga is such a bad ass weapon.

Down time = med to start with 300tp. (or atleast 200tp)

No down time = med to get to 300tp extremely fast to restart AM3.

Whilst meditate and changing playstyle will help a lot you will still be far off the perfect scenario dps. Not disputing that koga is a very strong weapon, just that the dps number touted are nowhere near realistic as they aren't for any weapon, but mythics especially.

[S N K]

I might as well give up right now.

You should be saying this in every thread.

[Nightfyre]

* You can't wear optimum DD gear in Legion (well you can, but you will die).

Then don't input optimum DD gear. What exactly is stopping you from running numbers with a defensive set?

* It assumes being able to TP perfectly (as detailed above)

untrue

* It doesn't account for the myriad of debuffs that will hit you, some of which will have a serious impact on your damage output (Amnesia, Terror, Stun, severe and hyper Paralyze, Slow, Encumbrance which wipes AM, Dispel/Purgation, Bind/Heavy grav between mobs and even Death)

True, but largely circumventable. The main issue would be debuffed calculations with respect to AM3 rebuild, which isn't supported at present and is frankly pretty annoying to model.

* It assumes all mobs in there have Ig-Alima like stats along with -30% crit rate which is not the case

Eh... strictly speaking true, but the monster list is editable.

* It doesn't account for running between mobs during waves or running between the portal/mobs before/after waves
* It assumes all buffs are up fulltime which is not the case
* It doesn't account for overwhelm not always being available

It's really not hard to factor these in. Maybe if you insist on having results for every possible permutation of buffs up/down, but it can do that if you really want to.

I primarily use the spreadsheets for "fast" results, but they're pretty thorough if you're halfway decent with Excel and make full use of their available features. Details regarding AM3 rebuild are probably the most glaring omission at this point, maybe some debuff-related options.

[Jem]

Those points were to reflect why Pchan's numbers didn't match up with what I was seeing in our parse results (i.e. they were against Ig-Alima in perfect DD gear and constant fighting with no breaks or mishaps/debuffs/whatever). I wasn't saying that nothing can be done about it. I just was pointing out the possible reasons for why his original data might not match what was happening. Some are changeable, some are not or are a pain to fix.

Also, you say it's untrue that it assumes perfect TP'ing but I think you're misinterpreting my point. I know it factors in TP overflow due to multihits, etc. What I am saying is it doesn't take into account A. Human error/slow responses and B. That you cannot WS whenever you want in Legion, sometimes you have to hold TP to not die. I know there's the TP Adjustments column which helps for this, but it's not always easy to estimate what to put in there (since it's massively variable)

[Ophannus]

It's not going to be perfect but I think its still a good forecaster/predictor of damage than any other current model.

[bechyni]

It's been awhile since a relic was post so:


Know it's only 75 but yeah