Completed Relic/Mythic weapons list

[Cairthenn]

I thought mythic AM was like jailer weaps and amood and shit, i.e. can proc da on multis or vice versa.

Nope. That's Jailer weapon unique. https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Occasionally_Attacks_Twice

Mythics unique OAx functionality is that it can proc on the first hit of a weaponskill.

[Aramaic]

Its also unique because its a fucking 3 min aftermath for level 3. 3 fucking min aftermath. I mean yes ryu can get tp in all of 5 sec with jumps to maintain but still keeping up AM3 on mythtics is actually quite easy if your not lazy.

[Cairthenn]

I am aware of how mythics work.

It's also not over writable and requires 300 TP.

[noodles355]

Should be fairly simple to time on average how long it takes you to get 300%TP with AM3 up and use spellcast to tell you when AM3 is that time from wearing off. Could easily make it so the time before the message is displayed changes depending on what haste buffs you have up.

So then AM3 might wear off a bit below 300TP, or maybe you ride 300TP for a few seconds, either way I doubt it's gonna be the colossal problem people are making it out to be.

Goes out the window if you're often disengaged in shit like dynamis of course.

[Cairthenn]

I'm really just going to have to say it's one of those things that if you haven't really dealt with it in a multitude of situations, you're really not going to understand it fully. The extent that it hurts DPS of various mythics has been discussed in either mathy parts or xiah, though (I don't remember which). Fortunately, for certain jobs it doesn't matter as much as others. BST isn't one of those.

[Xilk]

Despite it being faster after the first time, it still hurts your DPS very badly.

Uhmmm no it really doesn't. I've checked it out extensively, specifically for aymur. The numbers do not match what you say, neither does practical testing. Go get a spreadsheet and take a look. Hop on the test server and try it out.

In general the elements you talk about are true, but specifically for aymur vs guttler (or any other options for BST dd) the negative impacts you state are not nearly as significant.

If you know how long it takes to get 300% to and how many WS you can do it n between, then timing it right torestore aftermath is not a problem.

[Cairthenn]

Any more than 10 seconds spent not perfectly maintaining AM3, Aymur starts to fall behind on anything higher than EM. About 20 seconds with DC or less. I'm not entirely sure how to account for time spent switching between mobs, as it varies, but it is not that significant, but it technically still matters and is also a factor that favors Guttler.

Notice that I've very clearly specified that you need to be benefiting from the attack on Guttler, which BST almost always is. Scenarios are obviously different if you have buffs.

I'd be very interested to see a Salvage II video, for example, of you constantly maintaining AM3. Dynamis would be fine too, I suppose, since that is supposedly all BST does.

Need to take a break? Guttler ++. WS too early on accident? Guttler ++. Long period of time spent between fights? Guttler ++. Minor accuracy issues or perfect dodge/invincible? Guttler ++.

Again, I've never said Aymur is bad, just that the situations that it reasonably pulls ahead definitively aren't exactly plentiful.

[noodles355]

You mean 10 seconds sitting at 300TP? Or 10 seconds where AM3 dropped before you reached 300TP? Or Either? I'm struggling to see how sitting at 300TP for 10 seconds will make the difference.

[Cairthenn]

Former, mostly. Sitting on TP would have a lesser effect (though more drastic in longer periods).

Also note that the difference is not a "are u srs" thing like DRG with Gugnir/Ryunohige. I would probably still opt to use Aymur pretty much always simply because I'd enjoy it more. That doesn't change that circumstance and the lack of efficient aftermath maintaining methods makes Guttler technically better in a lot of situations.

[pooter01]

for those using a spreadsheet to empirically decide which weapon is better, It is very difficult to accurately account for waiting for 300tp, and the damage that is lost in doing so. Fact is, that period where you are building back up to restore AM3, your overall dps drops simply due to lack of weapon skilling. the loss of dps goes up even more if you hit 300 early, and have to wait, or if you fail to hit 300 before aftermath wears off. While I admit I'm no expert on bst, I can easily see the possible downsides to keeping AM3 up on a 1handed job without any real means of quickly gaining tp. Like cairth, not saying that mythic is bad or that relic is better, but simply stating that you are underestimating the effect of having to maintain AM3 has on your dps even before considering how difficult it is to hit 300tp the moment it wears off.

[Cairthenn]

Just a final comment, because I don't really think I could add much more: effective Mythic play style is heavily reliant on constant, accurate upkeep. If your attention is elsewhere, your overall damage will drop noticeably more than any other sort of weapon. In a similar fashion, it also requires that you are near-constantly fighting for the duration that you want to make use of the weapon; non-engaged time is more detrimental than other weapons. If everything is in your favor and you stay on top of things, you can almost never go wrong with a Mythic; though, on several jobs there are times where other weapons may edge out by a few percent. Very simple fixes like allowing AM3 to be overwritten or TP bonus to apply to aftermath would allow Mythics to be more effective in many situations without creating a complete monopoly on best weapons.

[dasva]

Also without external hastes which is how bst finds itself alot it takes a looooooooooooooooong time to get to 300%. Even with just haste it's pretty long. So you gotta start planning early and greatly increases chances of losing am/holding tp and increase the ratio of crap ws to ruinator

[Plow]

Seems to me like on most stuff bst would do ruinator is so far ahead of primal rend (or cloudsplitter for that matter) that the extra raw damage would barely make up for a single primal and you'd pretty much have to get 2 full extra ws out of the AM every single time you use it to be worthwhile.


I do think cloudsplitter has the potential to outperform (or at least be worth am'ing with over just) ruinator on... stuff a bst would probably never touch lol.

[Xilk]

for those using a spreadsheet to empirically decide which weapon is better, It is very difficult to accurately account for waiting for 300tp, and the damage that is lost in doing so. Fact is, that period where you are building back up to restore AM3, your overall dps drops simply due to lack of weapon skilling. the loss of dps goes up even more if you hit 300 early, and have to wait, or if you fail to hit 300 before aftermath wears off. While I admit I'm no expert on bst, I can easily see the possible downsides to keeping AM3 up on a 1handed job without any real means of quickly gaining tp. Like cairth, not saying that mythic is bad or that relic is better, but simply stating that you are underestimating the effect of having to maintain AM3 has on your dps even before considering how difficult it is to hit 300tp the moment it wears off.

Actually, its not that hard. I was wondering the best way to do it so I asked in the DPS spreadsheet thread. Got a great response:

Set 1: Mythic weaponskill. Set minimum TP to 300.
Set 2: Normal weaponskill. Set minimum TP to 100.
Determine time interval for Set 2, and figure out how many weaponskills you can manage in the time that AM3 is up, after deducting the time for get TP for activating AM3 from Set 1. Depending on job, you may be able to improve on the basic numbers by use of special abilities.
Use the two time periods for the averaging values.

That is exactly what I did.
I was having this conversation on another forum a few weeks ago. I was arguing that, even though I strongly prefer Aymur, Guttler would still have the advantage on High level NM's because of the attack and the delay, and how level correction hurts pet damage. When I started running the numbers I was surprised what a slim advantage Guttler had over Aymur w/out AM3. (and with no way to compare the pet attack+ even though it is substantial). I expected it to be more significant, but it really wasn't. Aymur is almost as Good as Guttler w/out AM3.
I checked against every target in the dps spreadsheet. 5% is the BIGGEST advantage guttler had. Other targets it was SMALLER, as low as 2%. When you add AM3, then 11% was the SMALLEST advantage Aymur had. Again the pet damage is not considered, but PET is getting a HUGE boost from am3 also. So in reality the disparity is even larger than this.

Efficient AM3 usage IS key to doing better damage w/ Mythic. However, it is not so demanding that it needs to be perfect upkeep or anywhere close. AM3 is so powerful, that the only situation where Guttler wins is if there is no AM3 at all. However, even w/out the AM3, it is quite possible that the pet attack bonus would make up for the guttler's advantage depending on the level of the target. If its a very low level mob (-20 or more) then the attack bonus will do nothing for the pet. Also, is the target is 11+ levels then the pet may be gimped too badly by level correction for it to matter enough.

Even if you only keep up AM3 50% of the time, Aymur still has a very solid advantage over Guttler. The numbers just are not there for Guttler. The player would have to be asleep to be that bad at keeping aftermath up. OR you're fighting mobs which destroy your tp all the time. if the aftermath duration were shorter, then the arguments for guttler would hold more weight, but there is tons room for inefficiency before guttler catches up, even when you ignore the huge bonuses to pet damage.

[dasva]

I haven't used the spreedsheet but I'm going to have to question how a vanilla 89 dmg 312 delay weapon is barely beaten by an 88 dmg 280 delay 40 att enchoke with occasional does 2.5X dmg. What sets, buffs,debuffs etc are you using?

[Xilk]

I haven't used the spreedsheet but I'm going to have to question how a vanilla 89 dmg 312 delay weapon is barely beaten by an 88 dmg 280 delay 40 att enchoke with occasional does 2.5X dmg. What sets, buffs,debuffs etc are you using?

now I'm repeating myself cuz you didn't read previous posts...
Best DD on bst is dual wielding.
Best off hand for Guttler in Double Attack Ganelon which has 312 delay.
Best off hand for Aymur is Str Astolfo, which has 276 Delay.
When you average the 2, the Aymur/Astolfo combo actually have lower average delay, just slightly.

Guttler has +40 attack, but the offhand astolfo has +22 and then another 5 from the str, so you only get an 13 attack advantage from guttler.

While the aftermath3 more than compensates for the double attack lost from DA Ganelon.

I used a 20% odd Rate for Guttler to accommodate for the occasional Damage Boosts. I think this is might actually be more generous than it needs to be.

I don't have a good way to include the choke damage, but then again we don't have a good way to include the Pet multi-attack or attack bonus either. The attack bonus to pet might outdo the choke in plenty of situations, or it might not, either way the AM3 on pet will do WAY more than choke.

Solo on bst, it takes 1min 13 sec to get up to 300% tp. Like I said, its slow to start up, and this won't be the case if you are in large party w/ regain sources before you start a big fight, or in VW. (Shucks, I'd fill it up w/ moonshade earring if I didn't have better options while waiting.) With am3 up, it will only take 57s to get 300% tp. It takes ~ 18 seconds (17.9x sec) to get tp for ruinator. (Aymur + astolfo; Guttler + Ganelon)

Even solo w/ no buffs you can do 6x Ruinators AND be up to 300% tp by the time am3 wears off. Actually its better to do 7x Ruinator's then you should still be around 280% tp by the time AM3 wears off. Aymur beats guttler in this solo situation by a 20% advantage vs EM targets.
If you use the same setup vs Qilin then Aymur Still has an 11.8% advantage over guttler. You might have 2 turns w/ am3 down, but if you have a single double attack when it goes, down, then its only going to be 1 turn. Add a little inefficiency and you may have as many as 5 attack rounds w/ am3 down.

The more delay reduction you have from party/alliance members, the more Ruinators you can land before you need to save up tp again. Aymur pulls farther ahead.
This doesn't even count the pet at all. If you go any lower in level the pet advantages become much much greater. If you go up in level, then Guttler doesn't catch up unless you are fighting Ig-Alima w/ no pet, no support, and the only WS worth doing is Primal Rend and then AM3 still makes Aymur win by ~1%

But really, get the spreadsheet and figure things out for yourself. The data is there. The doubters on this comparison are arguing w/ too much ignorance.

[Prothescar]

"Only" 57s to get 300TP

None of this isn't information that hasn't already been stated. Qilin is not high end content, it's mid-level BST-friendly content. The attack on Guttler matters less, especially since you'd be getting buffs, and the 300TP issue is alleviated by high TP gain meds/atmacites/etc. in VW. Once again, the issue is not "which axe is better", the issue lies in BST being inherently flawed in that it has minimal natural damage increasing abilities/traits and little unique utility to compensate. Killer Instinct is nice but good luck effectively using it on 95% of endgame content, especially if you plan on maintaining your pet as a useful source of DPS. Either axe increases the efficiency of low-to-mid level content only, so neither axe is a poor option and it barely matters which is better at all.


Running a quick simulation, with capped magic haste, Aymur comes in at around 15% ahead of Guttler. It also comes in at around 20% behind BLU, a job that is in the upper echelon of power for 1h jobs and still is not able to maintain good enough damage to be reliable in high end events.

[dasva]

I think you didn't really read I asked how guttler barely wins without am3 and you respond partly by saying am3 more than makes up for the DA from ganelon...

By gear I meant more than offhand axe. So as to figure out how they hell you get tp so fast because you are clearly doing something to skew things. I don't need a spreedsheet to calculate tp gain and under realistic actual solo situations it should take more like almost 100 seconds to get to 300% without AM3 (though why we even talking about 300% tp when under the pretext of aymur w/o aftermath I again have no idea).

So enough of sidetracking and back to your claim that without AM3 guttler only wins by 2-5%. What solo setups do you use to acheive that? Because as you said combine delay between axe setups are nigh identical so how does 11 str 1 base dmg even come close to 13 att and 11 DA and ODD? The extra DA alone is 8%. So no I don't doubt because of ignorance I doubt because there is a shit ton of missing info. And the numbers don't make sense. From the looks of it it almost looks in order to skew things like that you were using multi hit atmas or something. Or maybe you had regain? Had full VW buffs when doing qilin comparisons? Idk

[Xilk]

"Only" 57s to get 300TP

None of this isn't information that hasn't already been stated. Qilin is not high end content, it's mid-level BST-friendly content. The attack on Guttler matters less, especially since you'd be getting buffs, and the 300TP issue is alleviated by high TP gain meds/atmacites/etc. in VW. Once again, the issue is not "which axe is better", the issue lies in BST being inherently flawed in that it has minimal natural damage increasing abilities/traits and little unique utility to compensate. Killer Instinct is nice but good luck effectively using it on 95% of endgame content, especially if you plan on maintaining your pet as a useful source of DPS. Either axe increases the efficiency of low-to-mid level content only, so neither axe is a poor option and it barely matters which is better at all.


Running a quick simulation, with capped magic haste, Aymur comes in at around 15% ahead of Guttler. It also comes in at around 20% behind BLU, a job that is in the upper echelon of power for 1h jobs and still is not able to maintain good enough damage to be reliable in high end events.

There were 2 discussions. The main one was effectiveness between Aymur and Guttler. Which is a bst onry comparison.
Using Qilin as an example was to show a contrast in damage between higher level/def mobs and EMs. and the "only 57s" comment was specifically to contrast to the slower value in order to calculate ws's before am wears out.... so yeah, all my recent posts here have been exactly about guttler vs aymur. That IS the issue.

The "bst inherently flawed..." I think you are the only one having that discussion. I don't see that discussion anywhere until here.

The other discussion, which no one has touched for awhile is whether Aymur makes bst viable for a zerg fight. I guess you're saying blu is better than bst for this as a 1h dd... You may have a point, you might not.
You can't include pet damage in there so there really won't be a useful comparison between the 2. Its really not hard for pet to do 20% of the master's damage, in fact its usually alot more than that. Of course its situational. I'm not really interested in comparing them at present. It sounds like alot of arguing w/out adequate information.

I'm interested in how the upcoming battle changes will affect the balance, because in most ppl's minds, only 2-handers are viable for zergs anyway. I already listed the points I think may make it situationaly worthwhile for a zerg.

And yes, you are correct that many NM's you zerg won't see benefit from Killer Instinct. This is why it would only be situationally worth it. Meebles NM's and VW NM's are the most recent NM's where it is widely viable. I would guess its viable for about 50% of them, but thats just a guess. Wouldn't be hard to count, but 95% is a gross exaggeration.

[Prothescar]

The "BST is viable for zergs" is entirely related to BST's flaws, it isn't applicable for zergs such as Legion or Odin2. I made it quite clear in my first reply that BST's issues extend not only to zergs but all high end content in general, thus its inclusion by proxy. Available weapons are far from the only factors in a job's relevancy to a zerg, I'll assume you already know this and thus realize why BST's other problems are far more pressing than the 10~15% boost in DPS that Aymur gives to a BST that already has a rather low DPS.

BLU, DNC, and MNK are undoubtedly superior 1h DDs by a sizable margin. The pet does not compensate for this, it would take more than the pet dealing 20% of the master's damage to bridge the gap, and 20% is being very, very generous in high buff situations. Each one of them is equally inadequate for high end content as BST, however, as you either have all or nothing.

I do not consider Meebles to be true endgame content as much as a sideshow event, the relevancy of Killer Instinct won't very much affect the success rate or relevancy of BST in the event as a whole as it's so easy to complete to begin with. Only specific VWNMs meet the criteria, most of which do not have a jug pet, especially not a good jug pet, that allows you to use Killer Instinct.

Both offshoots of this debate have become pretty circular, there's little point in continuing.