PSA regarding Cuchulain's Mantle

[Shinryuu]

What server are you on, Araelus? And if you're not interested in parsing I might go do it, the Grand Marid thing is interesting if they really only spawn as level 80. They'd become the new Ronfaure bunnies, so to say.

[FailureMidgard]

What server are you on, Araelus? And if you're not interested in parsing I might go do it, the Grand Marid thing is interesting if they really only spawn as level 80. They'd become the new Ronfaure bunnies, so to say.

Actually, I may be wrong...

[Shinryuu]

You better not be, señor.

[pchan]

I have no experience with the truly theoretical side of stats, only empirical testing. So thank you for the info on getting a standard deviation before actual testing.

0.85% is the average accuracy that you measure...

And right when I thought we were making some progress, I guess those charts I posted didn't work for you. Because for +1att to be that much of an increase, you have less than 100 base attack, or the mob is Jormungand.

Didn't read your charts, the things I punched are a mixed of imps and tough qiqrn which, last I checked don't have awesome defense, it's more the opposite... Look like someone has cuchulain's mantles for sale or someone's charts sucks.

[Shinryuu]

Araelus, you're treating scum like pchan way too nice.

[Wolfknight]

276 base skill - 68.4, 4 acc difference.
292 base skill (8 merits) - 82.8 - 3 acc difference.
297 base skill (8 merits + bushi) - 87.3 - 4 acc difference.
I'm assuming that anyone who actually chooses a Bushi is semi-serious about Sam and merits GK as well, but I can see people choosing Suppa and still meriting GK.

I'm using a lot of my stats to guess at average values, forgive me if they are off, I will estimating low on attack wherever possible (this will make attack a more valuable addition).

Base Attack is going to be ~400 (this is low end...)
Minuet is +61-66 attack.
Meat Mithkabob is +60 attack (we all know this is bad food).


So we're sitting at 520 attack with 1 Minuet and Food, on the low end. Until we have new pDIF formulas, we can't get an exact, but a good assumption here is 15 attack increases your damage by 15/520, or 2.88%. Then again, that's only your auto-swing damage. Using the old formula, it'd be a little more than that, we'll go ahead and do the math with that for fun... 520/327 - .025*7 = 1.41 ; 535/327 - .025*7 = 1.46 ; .05/1.41 = 3.55% increase in damage after level correction/etc.

Now, here's where the 1 debatable part comes in - how much of your damage is affected by this. Personally, I've never parsed under 60% of my damage being weaponskill damage, generally its 65%+. Let's go ahead and assume 60% for a true lowend (I use a Hagun...any non-Hagun weapon benefits a lot more from attack than Hagun would because a smaller % of your damage is WS). .4*3.55 = 1.42%
So, 15 attack is giving you a 1.42% increase in damage.

Let's see what 3 accuracy does.
If you have a 90% accuracy, it increases your melee damage by 1.5/90 = 1.66% damage. This also increases your WS rate by 1.66%. Admittedly, the accuracy doesn't influence the small portion of your damage that comes from meditate (I don't have a good guess at this...10%?), so we'll say it only affects 90% of your damage...thats .9*1.66 = 1.49% increase in damage.

So, when you assume a rather low attack value (no berserk, bad food, only 1 minuet from a bard with no merits in it and not even capped skill), and what I consider to be a low WS-contribution to your damage, 15 attack and 3 accuracy are right in line with each other, assuming you're not at capped accuracy. In reality, JTorque is not a 15 attack upgrade over PCC (though it does add ~1 base damage...it still won't catch up to PCC valued at 4 acc, but will come very close at 3, though still be behind), and with bushi+capped merits, PCC is 4 accuracy over JTorque.

If you want to argue against the idea that 2 acc = 1% hit, then go for it, I never tested that and never plan to, but it has been quoted as fact for some time now. We also don't know the new/exact pDIF formulas, so who knows there...but if they are anywhere near what we have taken as truth in the past, 1 accuracy is roughly equal to 5 attack for a samurai, 1 vs 3 isn't even a competition.

so with 1 acc > 5 att by you that seems really extreme to me, I could see 1 acc = 3 att, but 1 acc > 5 att seems nuts even w/math. I mean at that rating why are we using meat instead of sushi or pizza cause I can't how you could use meat when valueing acc like this.

Also an anything higher than merits the att will be more useful since mobs have higher defense and don't always have brd or cor for att buffs at events.

Also I hope you use mineut/fowling earring[if u have suppa] for sure and bash anyone w/mermans/ethreal[or etc] and then since thats a 2 att to 1 acc nor use ulth since thats 4 att for 1 acc[non HQ ring]. And why not fuck just cuch mantle and just go for settler's cape on jobs[I realize sam can't use] that can use cause it's about the same trade off as going from justice to PCC.

I can't comment on melee: ws dmg rate since it's been while since I exp'd w/gkt, I know for drg my ws dmg is about even w/melee.

[mdkuser]

there is also a secret cape, whose name I forget, that actually gives +6 acc +6 attack, I know thf can use it idk what jobs exactly can use it. It comes from assault.

[Thunder]

Aileron Mantle
[Back] All Races
DEF:5 Accuracy+6 Ranged Accuracy+6
LV 71 WAR RDM THF DRK NIN COR

^

[Shinryuu]

so with 1 acc > 5 att by you that seems really extreme to me, I could see 1 acc = 3 att, but 1 acc > 5 att seems nuts even w/math.

"So the sun doesn't orbit around the earth, that seems really extreme to me, I could see the sun not orbiting around the moon but the sun not orbiting around the earth seems nuts even with telescopical proof"

[Wolfknight]

"So the sun doesn't orbit around the earth, that seems really extreme to me, I could see the sun not orbiting around the moon but the sun not orbiting around the earth seems nuts even with telescopical proof"

sorry, I meant if acc is 5 times better than attack why the hell would you even bother using meat is my point, when sushi or pizza give acc.

[Mayareira]

sorry, I meant if acc is 5 times better than attack why the hell would you even bother using meat is my point, when sushi or pizza give acc.

Baseless magical(!?) numbers like "5 times better", "2 att > 1 acc" won't get people anywhere. Rule of thumb is that sacrificing x amount of accuracy(x% of your hitrate) for whatever amount of attack is generally a bad idea. I could get into the math stuff, but shits got to be common sense already and there is simply no point wasting time on it.

[FailureMidgard]

so with 1 acc > 5 att by you that seems really extreme to me, I could see 1 acc = 3 att, but 1 acc > 5 att seems nuts even w/math. I mean at that rating why are we using meat instead of sushi or pizza cause I can't how you could use meat when valueing acc like this.

Also an anything higher than merits the att will be more useful since mobs have higher defense and don't always have brd or cor for att buffs at events.

Also I hope you use mineut/fowling earring[if u have suppa] for sure and bash anyone w/mermans/ethreal[or etc] and then since thats a 2 att to 1 acc nor use ulth since thats 4 att for 1 acc[non HQ ring]. And why not fuck just cuch mantle and just go for settler's cape on jobs[I realize sam can't use] that can use cause it's about the same trade off as going from justice to PCC.

I can't comment on melee: ws dmg rate since it's been while since I exp'd w/gkt, I know for drg my ws dmg is about even w/melee.

Where to start...1 acc is roughly equal to 5 attack, sure. How many places does this really come into play? I use Bushi/Brutal on ear. I use Rajas/Iota on ring. I use a PCC on neck. I don't own an Uthalam's (I think it's a pretty poor ring outside of Salvage), I chose a Balrahn's because I feel the refresh when I'm on a mage job in salvage is far superior to Uthalams, and furthermore, it's nice for macc for bard.

As for sushi vs meat, you're missing the fact that in order for this to hold true, you need to get full benefit from said accuracy. If someone is parsing at 93% accuracy (and 2 acc = 1 hit), sushi is only giving you 4 accuracy. If you're parsing at 90% accuracy, sushi is giving you 10 accuracy. A Meat Mithkabob gives 60 attack, so at 90% accuracy, it's still a 6:1 ratio (which I'd take attack).
So sorry, I use meat with GK, and I do use Sushi with pole if I don't have a Madrigal (Madrigal + more acc on gear is generally enough to close the gap). I'd also like to note it's been literally forever since I merited on my Sam at MMJSP.

Anyway, you're blowing things out of proportion. Sushi is better if you are down in the 80% accuracy range...Meat is better at 90 because accuracy past the cap is irrelevant. Capping accuracy is almost always better than picking up attack on a decent-hit build 2hand DD (I'm not 100% sure on this generalization - I am 100% for a Hagun Sam though...even an Onimaru Sam has a little more use for attack). On the other hand, monks do way more auto-swing damage proportional to their WS damage, which will up the value of attack (while using the value of accuracy pretty much the same).

[Blaksen]

While it doesn't work for attack and may require a level sync down for things like accuracy. The fortifications in Campaign always spawn at level 50, never fight back and in some areas can stay up for an hour straight. So they can be useful for figuring out some formulas.

[Wolfknight]

Where to start...1 acc is roughly equal to 5 attack, sure. How many places does this really come into play? I use Bushi/Brutal on ear. I use Rajas/Iota on ring. I use a PCC on neck. I don't own an Uthalam's (I think it's a pretty poor ring outside of Salvage), I chose a Balrahn's because I feel the refresh when I'm on a mage job in salvage is far superior to Uthalams, and furthermore, it's nice for macc for bard.

As for sushi vs meat, you're missing the fact that in order for this to hold true, you need to get full benefit from said accuracy. If someone is parsing at 93% accuracy (and 2 acc = 1 hit), sushi is only giving you 4 accuracy. If you're parsing at 90% accuracy, sushi is giving you 10 accuracy. A Meat Mithkabob gives 60 attack, so at 90% accuracy, it's still a 6:1 ratio (which I'd take attack).

more not sushi but more so why meat over pizza[besides 3 hour food thing, death losing it, or colibiri] cause most people even at Mamool/Salvage/limbus still seem to still with meat over pizza when they could benefit atleast 5% hit rate, so what I am trying get here is reason why Meat > Pizza but Acc > att which really confuses me/ since acc 10% vs 10~50 att[60~100-50], and if you were capping acc, you could probably change a slot to gain haste.

[Max™]

sorry, I meant if acc is 5 times better than attack why the hell would you even bother using meat is my point, when sushi or pizza give acc.

Wear Acc + Haste, cap Acc, swing faster, get +25% Att from meat.
Wear Att + Haste, don't cap Att, swing faster, get +15% Acc from sushi.
Wear Acc + Att, don't swing fast, eat Haste food which doesn't exist.

It is possible to reach the accuracy cap in many scenarios with just gear/merits/proper JA's/traits, this lets you use Haste at the Acc < Haste inflection point whatever it may be in your situation, to maximum effect. At this point the only thing left to do is raise your attack.

The key thing to consider is, how much does 1 miss hurt, compared to a swing landed with more attack.

That is what Araelus' chart was trying to display, the points where you lose more by missing a hit, than you lose hitting for slightly less.

[FailureMidgard]

more not sushi but more so why meat over pizza[besides 3 hour food thing, death losing it, or colibiri] cause most people even at Mamool/Salvage/limbus still seem to still with meat over pizza when they could benefit atleast 5% hit rate, so what I am trying get here is reason why Meat > Pizza but Acc > att which really confuses me/ since acc 10% vs 10~50 att[60~100-50], and if you were capping acc, you could probably change a slot to gain haste.

Pizza is better than a Coeurl Sub at 90% accuracy as far as TP damage goes. But yea, the 3hour thing sucks in my opinion...if I want to be ready for deaths, I lose 1 inventory slot per, for marginal upgrade. Past that, cost comes into play if you do any event for less than 3hrs (the prices are pretty similar when you get the full 3hrs).

But there's more than that...the 5 STR is some small amount on TP damage (though it won't catch it up there), but do remember you can't swap your food for WS, like you can accuracy on gear, so the 5 STR for WS is nice to have as well. I haven't done the exact math here, but I'd say Pizza is probably still slightly better at 90% accuracy, even with the WS damage. But not really enough to make it worth the inconvenience.

And if you start getting closer to 93% accuracy, Sub wins out hands down. Though that being said, sure, people could drop accuracy elsewhere and pick up more haste.

[Shinryuu]

Pizza is a very good food. When I ever return to sky farming again I will eat it for Gods and the like. I carry quite some food around, actually. Always have a stack of taco, carbonara, 3 stacks or so of mithkabobs, 2 pizza's, a stack of bream sushi, and 2 stacks of crab sushi. That said, eating meat, on Colibri, on WAR, using polearm, I parse a little over 90% accuracy (with 19% haste in gear). Crab sushi ('the Colibri sushi') would be a waste. The only piece of haste I don't use while using polearm is a blitz ring and I should get spellcast working so it gets macroed in during aggressor.

[Wolfknight]

Pizza is a very good food. When I ever return to sky farming again I will eat it for Gods and the like. I carry quite some food around, actually. Always have a stack of taco, carbonara, 3 stacks or so of mithkabobs, 2 pizza's, a stack of bream sushi, and 2 stacks of crab sushi. That said, eating meat, on Colibri, on WAR, using polearm, I parse a little over 90% accuracy (with 19% haste in gear). Crab sushi ('the Colibri sushi') would be a waste. The only piece of haste I don't use while using polearm is a blitz ring and I should get spellcast working so it gets macroed in during aggressor.

thats w/some acc buff[hunter/madrigal] I assume, for war polearm on colibiri?

[Shinryuu]

No madrigal, no Feint, no Hunter's, no Mezraq or Thalassocrat, and it's the average between 3/5 aggressor on and 2/5 aggressor off.

I have a 20-fight parse where I was at 98% accuracy with polearm <_<

[Wolfknight]

No madrigal, no Feint, no Hunter's, no Mezraq or Thalassocrat, and it's the average between 3/5 aggressor on and 2/5 aggressor off.

I have a 20-fight parse where I was at 98% accuracy with polearm <_<

ic just wondering how war pushs such high hit rate on low skill lol, since w/current gear I have 92~93% acc on drg but I don't hasso ussually, you using it or no?