PSA regarding Cuchulain's Mantle

[Shinryuu]

WAR has the same polearm skill as SAM. Seems kind of weird to me how SAM fanboys advocates polearm and I never see a WAR with one. WAR has aggressor, SAM doesn't. It's basically aggressor, shorter Berserk cast, and 5% DA versus ungimped meditate, Overwhelm and tomoe being a bit better than engetsuto (I need a Gondo, pronto). Plus some gear differences, I guess, but goes both ways. I do pretty well on birds, arguably better than with any non-Fortitude axe.

[FailureMidgard]

WAR has the same polearm skill as SAM. Seems kind of weird to me how SAM fanboys advocates polearm and I never see a WAR with one. WAR has aggressor, SAM doesn't. It's basically aggressor, shorter Berserk cast, and 5% DA versus ungimped meditate, Overwhelm and tomoe being a bit better than engetsuto (I need a Gondo, pronto). Plus some gear differences, I guess, but goes both ways. I do pretty well on birds, arguably better than with any non-Fortitude axe.

Sam uses sushi or madrigal though...I think polearm war is vastly underrated on birds, but I'm a little confused at you parsing 90% with no accuracy buff at all.

[Shinryuu]

Well hasso and aggressor are accuracy buffs. I calculated it, and the parses I have are probably a bit off due to sheer luck. Under aggressor/hasso I have roughly 94% ACC under the assumption 409 ACC is capped hitrate on Greaters. Without aggressor, it's -12.5%, or 81.5%. Averaging those out it's 89% (weighted averages of course).

You can guess my gear (it's nothing special) but keep in mind I have 110 DEX during TP.

Edit: really my last sentence before bedtime. Gear:

Engetsuto/Bomblet (8 )
PCC/Minuet (13)
Haubergeon+1/Blood ring (17)
Swift belt/Aurum sabatons (6)

110 DEX comes from 80 base, Byakko's, Minuet, Haubergeon+1, Aurum sabatons, Rajas which is 30 more.

I have 4 polearm merits and I'm embarassed to say I looked up Wiki for my polearm skill. According to Wiki it's 240 base and 8 from merits for a total of 248. Whenever SE expands combat merits polearm is the first to be 8'd (after that comes EVA; hurry SE).

On topic: I could use a Cuchulain's. Probably my next purchase but will be a bit.

Bedtime bai.

[Cream Soda]

Sam uses sushi or madrigal though...I think polearm war is vastly underrated on birds, but I'm a little confused at you parsing 90% with no accuracy buff at all.

I don't use sushi or madrigal, but I have capped polearm merits and get about 85% acc with my build

[byte]

I also use polearm for WAR on birds. I think it's absolutely fantastic and I really don't understand why more don't use it.

[Araelus]

I take a day off and another page of posts rolls by, le'see...

What server are you on, Araelus? And if you're not interested in parsing I might go do it, the Grand Marid thing is interesting if they really only spawn as level 80. They'd become the new Ronfaure bunnies, so to say.

I'm on .... that's right, Quetzalcoatl. As for parsing, lately I've been tied up with a lot of real-world business, so go for it. If you get different xp results from two kills, though, no dice.

Didn't read your charts, the things I punched are a mixed of imps and tough qiqrn which, last I checked don't have awesome defense, it's more the opposite... Look like someone has cuchulain's mantles for sale or someone's charts sucks.

Looks like a false dichotomy! I have no Cuch Mantle, if I had one I would not be selling it, and I am confident in the charts, even the 100% damage from TP charts. I don't know if you care, but the crunchy numbers show that as a monster's defense is lower, cēterīs paribus, an efficient agent will add accuracy to cap before aiming for even low values of attack.

Araelus, you're treating scum like pchan way too nice.

Either Donald Davidson's principle of conversational charity, or Matthew 5:43–48, same result.

sorry, I meant if acc is 5 times better than attack why the hell would you even bother using meat is my point, when sushi or pizza give acc.

Baseless magical(!?) numbers like "5 times better", "2 att > 1 acc" won't get people anywhere. Rule of thumb is that sacrificing x amount of accuracy(x% of your hitrate) for whatever amount of attack is generally a bad idea. I could get into the math stuff, but shits got to be common sense already and there is simply no point wasting time on it.

Mayaerira has is exactly right, Wolfknight. The point of those charts is to show that the equivalent amounts of attack and accuracy during TP, vs. a single monster, change depending on your current hit% and Attack.

As a person adds +ATT or +ACC, each additional point has decreasing marginal returns. The intuitive move is to add as much accuracy and haste using gear as you can, then eat Attack food, except when +ATT adds more damage than +ACC.

What surprised me was how the math shows it is very difficult to increase your total damage more by adding +1 attack than by adding +1 accuracy, especially on merit mobs.

This is what you're going to have to deal with, Wolfknight: it is "magical thinking" to have +X attack equal to +Y accuracy as some kind of constant rule. And the more of your total damage that comes from WS, the more the balance swings against +ATT during TP.

"So the sun doesn't orbit around the earth, that seems really extreme to me, I could see the sun not orbiting around the moon but the sun not orbiting around the earth seems nuts even with telescopical proof"

Yeah, exactly! This is a great example: we need to be careful what ideas we make into dogmatic truths. Now Shaddix can take this and turn it around on me in terms of "+1 acc = ??? hitrate", so I will appreciate any and all testing on that front.

The key thing to consider is, how much does 1 miss hurt, compared to a swing landed with more attack.

That is what Araelus' chart was trying to display, the points where you lose more by missing a hit, than you lose hitting for slightly less.

Apparently the chart format is still not easy for everyone to use - please let me know what I can do to make it more use-able.

For me it is intuitive: find current Accuracy and Attack, then add to the stat which is farther to the right, moving left along that stat line as the value increases, and at every point it shows you how much dmg+% the att/acc gives.

Araelus: I really liked the charts way back on page 3 comparing the benefits of adding acc/attack. Any chance of throwing haste in there, or just doing haste versus acc? I typically TP in a haste setup in merits on COR, and my acc is reasonable there, but tends to be far less reasonable in Einherjar, and I'm curious about the benefits of haste versus accuracy given various hit rates/haste totals.

Bakthi, I am glad you could use the charts. I can add haste in, but I need to know how to compute the actual increase in damage before I do so.

My problem is that Haste+ has increasing marginal returns. The "easy" answer is to say, cap hitrate before adding Haste, but depending on your total Haste (not just gear but also spells and songs) there are some points where it is more valuable to be "missing faster" than "hitting slower" if that makes sense.

The Haste+ gained besides equipment is my roadblock. I will try to make more than one Haste% curve, showing situations that might arise. However, since I am currently working on my tax returns (how do I owe taxes when I lost money overall this year?!) my brain is acquiring the consistency of week-old porridge.

And so I ask the math gurus:

			delay					delay					delay					delay					delay					delay
	haste	delay	change	|		haste	delay	change	|		haste	delay	change	|		haste	delay	change	|		haste	delay	change	|		haste	delay	change
	0	450.0	0.00%	|		0	450.0		|		0	450.0		|		0	450.0		|		0	450.0		|		0	450.0	
	1	445.5	-1.00%	|	spell	15	382.5		|	spell	15	382.5		|	spell	15	382.5		|	spell	15	382.5		|	spell	15	382.5	
	2	441.0	-1.01%	|		16	378.0	-1.18%	|	hasso	25	337.5		|	m2	26	333.0		|	m2	26	333.0		|	m2	26	333.0	
	3	436.5	-1.02%	|		17	373.5	-1.19%	|		26	333.0	-1.33%	|		27	328.5	-1.35%	|	hasso	36	288.0		|	hasso	36	288.0	
	4	432.0	-1.03%	|		18	369.0	-1.20%	|		27	328.5	-1.35%	|		28	324.0	-1.37%	|		37	283.5	-1.56%	|	march	45	247.5	
	5	427.5	-1.04%	|		19	364.5	-1.22%	|		28	324.0	-1.37%	|		29	319.5	-1.39%	|		38	279.0	-1.59%	|		46	243.0	-1.82%
	6	423.0	-1.05%	|		20	360.0	-1.23%	|		29	319.5	-1.39%	|		30	315.0	-1.41%	|		39	274.5	-1.61%	|		47	238.5	-1.85%
	7	418.5	-1.06%	|		21	355.5	-1.25%	|		30	315.0	-1.41%	|		31	310.5	-1.43%	|		40	270.0	-1.64%	|		48	234.0	-1.89%
	8	414.0	-1.08%	|		22	351.0	-1.27%	|		31	310.5	-1.43%	|		32	306.0	-1.45%	|		41	265.5	-1.67%	|		49	229.5	-1.92%
	9	409.5	-1.09%	|		23	346.5	-1.28%	|		32	306.0	-1.45%	|		33	301.5	-1.47%	|		42	261.0	-1.69%	|		50	225.0	-1.96%
	10	405.0	-1.10%	|		24	342.0	-1.30%	|		33	301.5	-1.47%	|		34	297.0	-1.49%	|		43	256.5	-1.72%	|		51	220.5	-2.00%
	11	400.5	-1.11%	|		25	337.5	-1.32%	|		34	297.0	-1.49%	|		35	292.5	-1.52%	|		44	252.0	-1.75%	|		52	216.0	-2.04%
	12	396.0	-1.12%	|		26	333.0	-1.33%	|		35	292.5	-1.52%	|		36	288.0	-1.54%	|		45	247.5	-1.79%	|		53	211.5	-2.08%
	13	391.5	-1.14%	|		27	328.5	-1.35%	|		36	288.0	-1.54%	|		37	283.5	-1.56%	|		46	243.0	-1.82%	|		54	207.0	-2.13%
	14	387.0	-1.15%	|		28	324.0	-1.37%	|		37	283.5	-1.56%	|		38	279.0	-1.59%	|		47	238.5	-1.85%	|		55	202.5	-2.17%
	15	382.5	-1.16%	|		29	319.5	-1.39%	|		38	279.0	-1.59%	|		39	274.5	-1.61%	|		48	234.0	-1.89%	|		56	198.0	-2.22%
	16	378.0	-1.18%	|		30	315.0	-1.41%	|		39	274.5	-1.61%	|		40	270.0	-1.64%	|		49	229.5	-1.92%	|		57	193.5	-2.27%
	17	373.5	-1.19%	|		31	310.5	-1.43%	|		40	270.0	-1.64%	|		41	265.5	-1.67%	|		50	225.0	-1.96%	|		58	189.0	-2.33%
	18	369.0	-1.20%	|		32	306.0	-1.45%	|		41	265.5	-1.67%	|		42	261.0	-1.69%	|		51	220.5	-2.00%	|		59	184.5	-2.38%
	19	364.5	-1.22%	|		33	301.5	-1.47%	|		42	261.0	-1.69%	|		43	256.5	-1.72%	|		52	216.0	-2.04%	|		60	180.0	-2.44%
	20	360.0	-1.23%	|		34	297.0	-1.49%	|		43	256.5	-1.72%	|		44	252.0	-1.75%	|		53	211.5	-2.08%	|		61	175.5	-2.50%
	21	355.5	-1.25%	|		35	292.5	-1.52%	|		44	252.0	-1.75%	|		45	247.5	-1.79%	|		54	207.0	-2.13%	|		62	171.0	-2.56%
	22	351.0	-1.27%	|		36	288.0	-1.54%	|		45	247.5	-1.79%	|		46	243.0	-1.82%	|		55	202.5	-2.17%	|		63	166.5	-2.63%
	23	346.5	-1.28%	|		37	283.5	-1.56%	|		46	243.0	-1.82%	|		47	238.5	-1.85%	|		56	198.0	-2.22%	|		64	162.0	-2.70%
	24	342.0	-1.30%	|		38	279.0	-1.59%	|		47	238.5	-1.85%	|		48	234.0	-1.89%	|		57	193.5	-2.27%	|		65	157.5	-2.78%
gear	25	337.5	-1.32%	|		39	274.5	-1.61%	|		48	234.0	-1.89%	|		49	229.5	-1.92%	|		58	189.0	-2.33%	|		66	153.0	-2.86%
spell	40	270.0		|	gear	40	270.0	-1.64%	|		49	229.5	-1.92%	|		50	225.0	-1.96%	|		59	184.5	-2.38%	|		67	148.5	-2.94%
m2	51	220.5		|	m2	51	220.5		|	gear	50	225.0	-1.96%	|	gear	51	220.5	-2.00%	|		60	180.0	-2.44%	|		68	144.0	-3.03%
hasso	61	175.5		|	hasso	61	175.5		|	m2	61	175.5		|	hasso	61	175.5		|	gear	61	175.5	-2.50%	|		69	139.5	-3.12%
march	70	135.0		|	march	70	135.0		|	march	70	135.0		|	march	70	135.0		|	march	70	135.0		|	gear	70	135.0	-3.23%

Is that right? (Gear +25%*, Spell +15%, March II +11%, March +9%, Hasso +10%) *must have +26% in gear to get 25% haste, hurr durr.

The important bit is that the more Haste you have before gear is taken into account, the more that each +1% haste from gear does.

Starting from 0% Haste, the first +1 gives you -1.00% delay, and the final point of gear Haste will give you -1.32% delay.

Starting from 45% Haste, the first +1 gives you -1.82% delay, and the final point of gear Haste will give you -3.23% delay.

Shown graphically:

Spoiler: show

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/attac...1&d=1239077686

And once again, I do not know why imageshack refuses to host these chart images. It keeps getting auto-removed.

So, Bakthi, if it helps - you can see on this chart #8 how much each point of haste from gear will reduce your attack speed. You can compare that to the effect of Accuracy, and it's not too bad, although they are not on the same chart... hmm.

Haste+1% at zero Haste: -1% delay
Haste+1% at 69% Haste: -3.23% delay
Acc+1 at 20% hitrate: damage +2.5%
Acc+1 at 94.99% hitrate: damage +0.01%
Att+1 when pDIF(avg) goes from negative to positive: damage +5%
Att+1 later on: no effect.

In other words:

During TP phase!

Haste will always do something until capped, and it does more and more on the margin until capped.

Att+1 does almost nothing until pDIF(avg) gets over zero, because while pDIF(max) is never negative, pDIF(min) can be - so at the point where Att+1 brings you up above pDIF(avg)=0 it is particularly amazing, but then Attack quickly loses efficiency.

Acc+1 when at the lowest possible hitrate will increase your damage by 2.5%, and when you are at 94% hitrate it still increases your damage by 0.53%.

TL;DR

Haste +1% ≤ -3.23% delay, starts at -1% delay, but increasing returns
Attack+1 ≤ DMG+5%, returns decrease very fast
Accuracy+1 ≤ DMG+2.5%, returns decrease very slowly

[BerenTebogo]

I see we have gone far off the original purpose of the topic, but I'm actually happy we have.

The thing is that many people, when evaluating their damage, gear, etc, make an honest attempt to look at the results in a fair and balanced manner. The issue comes into question though when the results being analyzed either A) show them to be making a poor decision or B) show that they do in fact need to pay xxx amount to better their performance instead of riding out R/E gear.

This then leads to the problem of people getting overly defensive about gear choices that they've worked long and hard to set for themselves, thinking that they have finally put themselves in a position to be the best they can be. When something comes along to usurp this notion, and is either hard to obtain or very costly it is met with a fierce opposition.

I recall specifically some Morrigan and Usukane bashing pre-Chest patch in Salvage. The 'impossibility' of salvage did not make the pieces anything but the best in their slots, it just made them a pain in the ass to get.

I don't want to sit here and advocate that everyone should drop what they are doing and prioritize Cuchulain's Mantle as #1, or any other piece of gear right now (especially since I need one for my new char) but we do all know there is a certain hierarchy. This fact of life is why the gimp players thread exists. Every day we post Morrigan's body BLM wearing Jet Seraweels and the like and have a hearty chuckle. The fact of the matter is that if you have a Haubergeon +1 or Hauberk +1, have upgraded Ares Head without full Ares set waiting on it, and countless other examples, before you buy a Cuchulain's, at whatever price, you are sabotaging yourself.

Somebody can do the math out, and I'm 100% sure it'll be very close, but if you take the DMG% increase from NQ haubergeon to HQ haubergeon and put it up against the damage increase of Amemet +1 or Forager's to Cuchulain's (obviously a general DMG% as it varies with gear and etc) I think you'll find that for almost exactly the same price difference you gain more from Cuchulain's than you do from +1 haub.

We're all set in our ways and that's fine. If however, you choose to stand up and shout the equivalent of "NO U!" at the top of your lungs in the face of fairly solid evidence for no reason other than you don't want to have to think of yourself as no longer capped on gear, then you're a fucking idiot and should honestly pull a Kutner. (Too soon?) If you, rather, would like to say, "while I appreciate that this piece here is a necessary addition to my arsenal should I ever desire to claim that I am using the ideal gear choices for my DD job, I have many other jobs and events that are a more beneficial use of my time and money than this small increase," then what the fuck ever, you're fine with me.

Just don't fucking argue statistics and math with your fucking eyeball bullfuckingshit theorycraft or I'll be forced to sodomize you with a plunger.

tl;dr: Some people get it, some people don't. If you don't then just kill yourself.

[mdkuser]

WAR has the same polearm skill as SAM. Seems kind of weird to me how SAM fanboys advocates polearm and I never see a WAR with one. WAR has aggressor, SAM doesn't. It's basically aggressor, shorter Berserk cast, and 5% DA versus ungimped meditate, Overwhelm and tomoe being a bit better than engetsuto (I need a Gondo, pronto). Plus some gear differences, I guess, but goes both ways. I do pretty well on birds, arguably better than with any non-Fortitude axe.

I don't think a war can get a 5-hit build with polearm, unlike sams

[Shinryuu]

Good one, though SAM has to hit 4/5 Penta and use Hachiman hands on WS, I think? Still a bonus over WAR.

The thing is that many people, when evaluating their damage, gear, etc, make an honest attempt to look at the results in a fair and balanced manner. The issue comes into question though when the results being analyzed either A) show them to be making a poor decision or B) show that they do in fact need to pay xxx amount to better their performance instead of riding out R/E gear.

This then leads to the problem of people getting overly defensive about gear choices that they've worked long and hard to set for themselves, thinking that they have finally put themselves in a position to be the best they can be. When something comes along to usurp this notion, and is either hard to obtain or very costly it is met with a fierce opposition.

Yeah this is very true. When people were advocating Enkidu's harness over Shura togi for MNK I was like nigga no way, then Thorny did the maths on MSN and they're equal at best and both win in different situations but Enkidu has defensive + and Shura has defense -. Now, imagine having farmed hard for Shura's 800k and then getting Enkidu the day after or so.

About spending gil: for most people making gil is somewhat tedious. That's why Cuchulain's price hasn't exploded yet.

[FailureMidgard]

Good one, though SAM has to hit 4/5 Penta and use Hachiman hands on WS, I think? Still a bonus over WAR.



Yeah this is very true. When people were advocating Enkidu's harness over Shura togi for MNK I was like nigga no way, then Thorny did the maths on MSN and they're equal at best and both win in different situations but Enkidu has defensive + and Shura has defense -. Now, imagine having farmed hard for Shura's 800k and then getting Enkidu the day after or so.

About spending gil: for most people making gil is somewhat tedious. That's why Cuchulain's price hasn't exploded yet.

Boy it sucks having to use Usu feet on Penta! 7acc7attk is really bad for Penta! ^^

But yea, we have to use some stp piece on Penta, and do need 4 hits...though if I ever get CC to drop, get a true 5hit with full Usu.

[Shinryuu]

Well I mean besides Usu shoes on WS

Usu body+feet can be fulltimed I guess for polearm SAM since body is more ACC than haub+1.

[mdkuser]

I think you'd need two hachiman piece for it to work. Its acceptabele to lose those 6% haste since moving from 6 to 5 hit is what.? 20% attack speed?

My setup uses usu body + feet so no loss in accuracy or haste anyway. I really like using polearm on sam at birds or in einherjar on bats/birds.

[FailureMidgard]

I think you'd need two hachiman piece for it to work. Its acceptabele to lose those 6% haste since moving from 6 to 5 hit is what.? 20% attack speed?

My setup uses usu body + feet so no loss in accuracy or haste anyway. I really like using polearm on sam at birds or in einherjar on bats/birds.

You only need 2 for a true 5hit, most people just use a 5hit that requires 4 hits on penta.

[Colenzo]

I just keep my regular setup for hagun that i use with my tomoe and just rely on the tp return to knock me to a 5 hit /shrug swap out bushi with a fowling earring and go go go 8/8 polearm merits. :< i need usukane q.q

[Killkenny]

Sam uses sushi or madrigal though...I think polearm war is vastly underrated on birds, but I'm a little confused at you parsing 90% with no accuracy buff at all.

With no gear specific to Polearm build or combat merits my war parses 92%~ accuracy on birds. Although my gear is above average it still has a lot of room for improvement in regards to a polearm build (cuch mantle and 6 merits should put me at accuracy cap without aggressor). Then again, I would never use war to merit with unless I needed a buffer so I guess I'll never get to test it under perfect conditions.

[Kenage]

With a 450 delay polearm(Engetsuo or Tomoe) you need 54 Store TP for a pure 5-hit, if you get 35 from the job trait and merits just 19 are necessary to reach it.

However you could play a bit with the extra hits to reach a more comfortable getto 5-hit, 50 Store TP brings you to 97.5tp after 5 hits requiring just 2 additional hits to reach 100tp, remeber that additional hits are also affected by Store TP in that sense 50 Store TP is very handy because your extra hits become 1.5 tp, reaching to 3 tp in just 2 hits.

An easy way to reach 50 Store TP in gear is rajas+brutal+euphoria+hachiman kote, that set let you use Shadow gorget for penta or any other neck piece, for usukane sune-ate users just change the neck piece for chiv chain(you may lose the bonus of gorget but anyway usukane has +7attk and +7acc)

Either set need to be used in both tp and ws sets.

I hope it helps.

Ken.

[FailureMidgard]

With no gear specific to Polearm build or combat merits my war parses 92%~ accuracy on birds. Although my gear is above average it still has a lot of room for improvement in regards to a polearm build (cuch mantle and 6 merits should put me at accuracy cap without aggressor). Then again, I would never use war to merit with unless I needed a buffer so I guess I'll never get to test it under perfect conditions.

I have 4 merits in Pole, I parse about 92 with 1 madrigal or sushi...I'm confused how people are parsing that without it. My gear is worse than yours, for sure, but I'm no more than 10 accuracy behind you.

[Cream Soda]

I have 8 PA merits, use usu gloves and usu mak, have black tathlum and toreador's ring.

[Sylvrdragon]

@Shinryuu

You're end-all goal for FFXI involves Ruby Seraweels? I wish I could aim that low. Unless I just got whooshed? I suppose you might only care about the color scheme.

[Kenage]

.