PSA regarding Cuchulain's Mantle

[Araelus]

All bards better go buy a cuch mantle.

After I put in the (SCH) clarification, I thought of Bard, but... perhaps (?) Bard melees in... Campaign (!!?) so....

Actually I ran first Scholar and then Bard through the following heuristic:

Spoiler: show

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6...erflowcopy.png

I could think of some exceptions for Bard making it past the "...Mage" bit, but none for Scholar. Besides, the inevitable conclusion of the original flowchart is that all players need to buy the Mantle.

And pretty soon this flowchart meme is going to backfire and not be humorous anymore.

So what value of atk and what value of acc are equivalent in your model.
Please state your answer in the form of a ratio

But on topic, say we have a 1-handed melee fighter who is attacking a LV85 monster with 500 defense.

From VZX's work we know:
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5971/chart1z.png
From this we can determine:

				cRatio	old	new 	pDIF(avg)
Attack	Att+15	old cR	new cR	delta%	P(avg)	P(avg)	delta %
200	215	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.19	0.19	0.00
225	240	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.19	0.19	0.00
250	265	0.00	0.03	0.00	0.19	0.21	9.25
275	290	0.05	0.08	60.00	0.22	0.24	8.22
300	315	0.10	0.13	30.00	0.25	0.27	7.41
325	340	0.15	0.18	20.00	0.28	0.30	6.76
350	365	0.20	0.23	15.00	0.32	0.34	6.22
375	390	0.25	0.28	12.00	0.35	0.37	5.77
400	415	0.30	0.33	10.00	0.38	0.40	5.39
425	440	0.35	0.38	8.57	0.42	0.44	5.05
450	465	0.40	0.43	7.50	0.45	0.48	4.76
475	490	0.45	0.48	6.67	0.49	0.51	4.51
500	515	0.50	0.53	6.00	0.53	0.55	4.28
525	540	0.55	0.58	5.45	0.56	0.59	4.08
550	565	0.60	0.63	5.00	0.60	0.63	3.90
575	590	0.65	0.68	4.62	0.64	0.67	3.73
600	615	0.70	0.73	4.29	0.68	0.71	3.58
625	640	0.75	0.78	4.00	0.72	0.75	3.44

Accuracy is very straightforward. One moment, please. To get damage change, I used an arbitrary "total damage = 5000" but that value can be changed to anything and the end result is the same.

		Acc	old	new	damage
Acc (%)	Acc+7	delta%	damage	damage	delta %
20.00	23.50	3.50	1000	1175	17.50
25.00	28.50	3.50	1250	1425	14.00
30.00	33.50	3.50	1500	1675	11.67
35.00	38.50	3.50	1750	1925	10.00
40.00	43.50	3.50	2000	2175	8.75
45.00	48.50	3.50	2250	2425	7.78
50.00	53.50	3.50	2500	2675	7.00
55.00	58.50	3.50	2750	2925	6.36
60.00	63.50	3.50	3000	3175	5.83
65.00	68.50	3.50	3250	3425	5.38
70.00	73.50	3.50	3500	3675	5.00
75.00	78.50	3.50	3750	3925	4.67
80.00	83.50	3.50	4000	4175	4.38
85.00	88.50	3.50	4250	4425	4.12
90.00	93.50	3.50	4500	4675	3.89
91.00	94.50	3.50	4550	4725	3.85
91.50	95.00	3.50	4575	4750	3.83
91.60	95.00	3.40	4580	4750	3.71
92.00	95.00	3.00	4600	4750	3.26
93.00	95.00	2.00	4650	4750	2.15
94.00	95.00	1.00	4700	4750	1.06
95.00	95.00	0.00	4750	4750	0.00

Although VZX wrote the page on "Level Correction Function and pDIF" so I am kind of taking notes while I think, here.

Making the cross-correlation chart one sec.

[FailureMidgard]

I don't. And my statement didn't imply any of sort either.

I said "... that doesn't give extra acc and attack from the raw stat". STR is a raw stat that gives attack. So this doesn't apply.

P.S:
Justice <-> PCC is similar to Faith <-> PCC. Faith Torque may give you an extra base damage, so does the 5 STR from Justice Torque (except it's guaranteed 1 fSTR with 25% chance of getting 2 fSTR).


There is no clear cut answer to that, really. Even if any of either option win, it may just be 3-5 damage win, which will be overshadowed 90% of how well you engage the enemy/manage hate/other factors that many people like to ignore.

My point with Justice, was -even with- 5 str, PCC is still better. Meaning in your example, even if Foragers had 5 more STR, Cuch would still be better.

[Araelus]

TABLE BREAK CHARTS

Attack?

Spoiler: show

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/152/chart2y.png

Accuracy?

Spoiler: show

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3571/chart3.png

Note that we are ignoring the STR values! And crits! And other complicated stuff! And this is for 1-handed weapons crap crap crap!

What you care about?
Instructions:

• Find your attack (blue diamonds) and your accuracy% (pink squares)
• Which one is farther to the right?
• Add to that stat (either ATT+15 or ACC+7)

Spoiler: show

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9113/chart4y.png

Still don't have a ratio for you

And these results are for a 1-hand attacking a mob 10 levels above them with 500 def, so yeah.

[BerenTebogo]

After I put in the (SCH) clarification, I thought of Bard, but... perhaps (?) Bard melees in... Campaign (!!?) so....

Actually I ran first Scholar and then Bard through the following heuristic:

Spoiler: show

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6...erflowcopy.png

I could think of some exceptions for Bard making it past the "...Mage" bit, but none for Scholar. Besides, the inevitable conclusion of the original flowchart is that all players need to buy the Mantle.

And pretty soon this flowchart meme is going to backfire and not be humorous anymore.



But on topic, say we have a 1-handed melee fighter who is attacking a LV85 monster with 500 defense.

From VZX's work we know:
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5971/chart1z.png
From this we can determine:

				cRatio	old	new 	pDIF(avg)
Attack	Att+15	old cR	new cR	delta%	P(avg)	P(avg)	delta %
200	215	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.19	0.19	0.00
225	240	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.19	0.19	0.00
250	265	0.00	0.03	0.00	0.19	0.21	9.25
275	290	0.05	0.08	60.00	0.22	0.24	8.22
300	315	0.10	0.13	30.00	0.25	0.27	7.41
325	340	0.15	0.18	20.00	0.28	0.30	6.76
350	365	0.20	0.23	15.00	0.32	0.34	6.22
375	390	0.25	0.28	12.00	0.35	0.37	5.77
400	415	0.30	0.33	10.00	0.38	0.40	5.39
425	440	0.35	0.38	8.57	0.42	0.44	5.05
450	465	0.40	0.43	7.50	0.45	0.48	4.76
475	490	0.45	0.48	6.67	0.49	0.51	4.51
500	515	0.50	0.53	6.00	0.53	0.55	4.28
525	540	0.55	0.58	5.45	0.56	0.59	4.08
550	565	0.60	0.63	5.00	0.60	0.63	3.90
575	590	0.65	0.68	4.62	0.64	0.67	3.73
600	615	0.70	0.73	4.29	0.68	0.71	3.58
625	640	0.75	0.78	4.00	0.72	0.75	3.44

Accuracy is very straightforward. One moment, please. To get damage change, I used an arbitrary "total damage = 5000" but that value can be changed to anything and the end result is the same.

		Acc	old	new	damage
Acc (%)	Acc+7	delta%	damage	damage	delta %
20.00	23.50	3.50	1000	1175	17.50
25.00	28.50	3.50	1250	1425	14.00
30.00	33.50	3.50	1500	1675	11.67
35.00	38.50	3.50	1750	1925	10.00
40.00	43.50	3.50	2000	2175	8.75
45.00	48.50	3.50	2250	2425	7.78
50.00	53.50	3.50	2500	2675	7.00
55.00	58.50	3.50	2750	2925	6.36
60.00	63.50	3.50	3000	3175	5.83
65.00	68.50	3.50	3250	3425	5.38
70.00	73.50	3.50	3500	3675	5.00
75.00	78.50	3.50	3750	3925	4.67
80.00	83.50	3.50	4000	4175	4.38
85.00	88.50	3.50	4250	4425	4.12
90.00	93.50	3.50	4500	4675	3.89
91.00	94.50	3.50	4550	4725	3.85
91.50	95.00	3.50	4575	4750	3.83
91.60	95.00	3.40	4580	4750	3.71
92.00	95.00	3.00	4600	4750	3.26
93.00	95.00	2.00	4650	4750	2.15
94.00	95.00	1.00	4700	4750	1.06
95.00	95.00	0.00	4750	4750	0.00

Although VZX wrote the page on "Level Correction Function and pDIF" so I am kind of taking notes while I think, here.

Making the cross-correlation chart one sec.

Good shit <3

And yeah, I'm just not in the mood to argue over trivialities at the moment. Camping shit / doing missions on my alt = too much work to bitch that obviously I didn't mean SCH,BRD, or SMN

[Araelus]

Oh! SMN....

But really, are those huge table-break charts on-target or not?

If I'm bored later I'll set up a better version that changes mob level and defense. o_o;

To clarify, on the final "equivalency" chart with x-axis Damage%delta, those accuracy points are staying where they are, but there will be multiple Attack trends depending on monster level and defense.

Need to go find my old Maple discs and make some 3D charts!

[BerenTebogo]

Looks about right to me. I'm not a super math-y guy, I just am cursed with this thing called common sense and a device known as a "parser"

With these two devices it quickly becomes obvious that increased ACC+ and DEX+/CRIT+ will yield more damage than ATT+15 over the course of the party.

[Yugl]

Technically the chart says it's for TP purposes, so it's still applicable!

[Quizno]

So where is the point where Attack and Accuracy are essentially equal?

Settler's Cape has been around forever, giving +10 Acc and -10 Atk.

So people are saying that +8 Acc (2H) > 15 Atk.

Is 2 Acc > 13 Atk? If yes, Settler's Cape > Cuchulain's Cape.

If no, then surely someone has figured out what number in the middle is the break even point... right?

Edit: I do see that that is what people are in the thread are trying to look at, I just don't understand why it wasn't discussed, say, years ago.

Edit2: Also, you don't need to make up 150 Atk, just 95 (which is still not easy, just less daunting). Pizza created a middle ground.

[Bregor]

All bards better go buy a cuch mantle.

Rangers and corsairs too.

[Araelus]

Here we go for a 1-handed weapon Cuchu vs. Forager's when fighting Greater Colibri.

Instructions:

• Find your attack (blue diamonds) and your accuracy% (pink squares)
• Which one is farther to the right?
• Add to that stat (either ATT+15 or ACC+7)

Spoiler: show

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/attac...1&d=1238911055

Notice how attack is slightly less useful than vs. a higher level, higher defense monster.

What about +1 att vs. +1 acc on Greater Colibri?

Llama's question, in regards to "When is 1acc giving the same benefit as 1att?" is useful to us. But please keep in mind that the value of 1acc depends on your current Accuracy, and the value of 1att depends on your current Attack(and mob's level and Defense).

However, please keep in mind that these Attack values are based on a ONE HANDED pDIF because we still do not know the 2-handed function right now.

Attack

Spoiler: show

				cRatio	old	new	pDIF(avg)
Attack	Att+1	old cR	new cR	delta%	P(avg)	P(avg)	delta %
200	201	0.26	0.26	1.17	0.36	0.36	0.57
225	226	0.34	0.34	0.90	0.41	0.41	0.52
250	251	0.41	0.42	0.74	0.46	0.47	0.47
275	276	0.49	0.49	0.62	0.52	0.52	0.44
300	301	0.57	0.57	0.54	0.58	0.58	0.41
325	326	0.64	0.65	0.47	0.64	0.64	0.38
350	351	0.72	0.72	0.42	0.70	0.70	0.36
375	376	0.80	0.80	0.38	0.76	0.77	0.34
400	401	0.87	0.88	0.35	0.83	0.83	0.32
425	426	0.95	0.95	0.32	0.90	0.90	0.30
450	451	1.03	1.03	0.30	0.96	0.97	0.29
475	476	1.10	1.11	0.28	1.03	1.04	0.28
500	501	1.18	1.18	0.26	1.11	1.11	0.27
525	526	1.26	1.26	0.24	1.18	1.18	0.26
550	551	1.33	1.34	0.23	1.26	1.26	0.25
575	576	1.41	1.41	0.22	1.34	1.34	0.24
600	601	1.48	1.49	0.21	1.42	1.42	0.23
625	626	1.56	1.56	0.20	1.50	1.50	0.22

Accuracy

Spoiler: show

		Acc	old	new	damage
Acc (%)	Acc+1	delta%	damage	damage	delta %
20.00	20.50	0.50	1000	1025	2.50
25.00	25.50	0.50	1250	1275	2.00
30.00	30.50	0.50	1500	1525	1.67
35.00	35.50	0.50	1750	1775	1.43
40.00	40.50	0.50	2000	2025	1.25
45.00	45.50	0.50	2250	2275	1.11
50.00	50.50	0.50	2500	2525	1.00
55.00	55.50	0.50	2750	2775	0.91
60.00	60.50	0.50	3000	3025	0.83
65.00	65.50	0.50	3250	3275	0.77
70.00	70.50	0.50	3500	3525	0.71
75.00	75.50	0.50	3750	3775	0.67
80.00	80.50	0.50	4000	4025	0.63
85.00	85.50	0.50	4250	4275	0.59
90.00	90.50	0.50	4500	4525	0.56
91.00	91.50	0.50	4550	4575	0.55
92.00	92.50	0.50	4600	4625	0.54
93.00	93.50	0.50	4650	4675	0.54
94.00	94.50	0.50	4700	4725	0.53
94.50	95.00	0.50	4725	4750	0.53
94.51	95.00	0.49	4725.5	4750	0.52
94.52	95.00	0.48	4726	4750	0.51
94.53	95.00	0.47	4726.5	4750	0.50
94.54	95.00	0.46	4727	4750	0.49
94.55	95.00	0.45	4727.5	4750	0.48
94.56	95.00	0.44	4728	4750	0.47
94.57	95.00	0.43	4728.5	4750	0.45
94.58	95.00	0.42	4729	4750	0.44
94.59	95.00	0.41	4729.5	4750	0.43
94.60	95.00	0.40	4730	4750	0.42
94.61	95.00	0.39	4730.5	4750	0.41
94.62	95.00	0.38	4731	4750	0.40
94.63	95.00	0.37	4731.5	4750	0.39
94.64	95.00	0.36	4732	4750	0.38
94.65	95.00	0.35	4732.5	4750	0.37
94.66	95.00	0.34	4733	4750	0.36
94.67	95.00	0.33	4733.5	4750	0.35
94.68	95.00	0.32	4734	4750	0.34
94.69	95.00	0.31	4734.5	4750	0.33
94.70	95.00	0.30	4735	4750	0.32
94.71	95.00	0.29	4735.5	4750	0.31
94.72	95.00	0.28	4736	4750	0.30
94.73	95.00	0.27	4736.5	4750	0.29
94.74	95.00	0.26	4737	4750	0.27
94.75	95.00	0.25	4737.5	4750	0.26
94.76	95.00	0.24	4738	4750	0.25
94.77	95.00	0.23	4738.5	4750	0.24
94.78	95.00	0.22	4739	4750	0.23
94.79	95.00	0.21	4739.5	4750	0.22
94.80	95.00	0.20	4740	4750	0.21
94.81	95.00	0.19	4740.5	4750	0.20
94.82	95.00	0.18	4741	4750	0.19
94.83	95.00	0.17	4741.5	4750	0.18
94.84	95.00	0.16	4742	4750	0.17
94.85	95.00	0.15	4742.5	4750	0.16
94.86	95.00	0.14	4743	4750	0.15
94.87	95.00	0.13	4743.5	4750	0.14
94.88	95.00	0.12	4744	4750	0.13
94.89	95.00	0.11	4744.5	4750	0.12
94.90	95.00	0.10	4745	4750	0.11
94.91	95.00	0.09	4745.5	4750	0.09
94.92	95.00	0.08	4746	4750	0.08
94.93	95.00	0.07	4746.5	4750	0.07
94.94	95.00	0.06	4747	4750	0.06
94.95	95.00	0.05	4747.5	4750	0.05
94.96	95.00	0.04	4748	4750	0.04
94.97	95.00	0.03	4748.5	4750	0.03
94.98	95.00	0.02	4749	4750	0.02
94.99	95.00	0.01	4749.5	4750	0.01
95.00	95.00	0.00	4750	4750	0.00

WHAT DOES ALL THIS MEAN, ARAELUS?

Spoiler: show

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/attac...2&d=1238911064

Pay careful attention to the scale and numbers on this chart!

You should start at the right edge, and make sure you have the listed stats, moving left across the chart, you slowly eliminate your most efficient stat increases until you cannot get any more damage.

So, once you reach 200 attack on Greater Colibri, you should increase your accuracy to 94% before going up to 225 attack!

How do you like those apples? (ALSO DAMMIT IMAGESHACK WTF MATH IS NOT PORN)

[yayaok]

i shouldve paid attention in math class, fool cant understand no shit

ground fact is acc still always pimper than atk right? think that's all i need to know lol

[Araelus]

i shouldve paid attention in math class, fool cant understand no shit

ground fact is acc still always pimper than atk right? think that's all i need to know lol

The last word:
http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/attac...3&d=1238911077

Note that I said 94% accuracy. You should raise your attack to 650+ on Greater Colibri before actually capping at 95%.

That is it I am done here. Get 93% or something on Mamool Ja is OK right OK.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Well, given your information, at approx 500 atk and 85% acc, 1 acc is slightly better than 2 atk (.59% bonus for 1 acc:.27% bonus for 1 atk).

Which lends to the idea that Foragers and Chuchulain's are about equal in that respect and Justice torque is better than chram (10 attack vs 3.7 accuracy.)

Also, keep in mind, with Marinara pizza, in many situations you can cap accuracy while getting bonus atk as well.

[Araelus]

(I was joking, I didn't leave.)

Well, given your information, at approx 500 atk and 85% acc, 1 acc is slightly better than 2 atk (.59% bonus for 1 acc:.27% bonus for 1 atk).

Which lends to the idea that Foragers and Chuchulain's are about equal in that respect.

Yes, that's true - for say a mob like Cerberus. (I see the 85%acc and 500 att being at the same vertical line on "chart4" from Post #83 which pits our TheoryCraftMan vs. a lv85 500def monster).

As the defense and/or level of the opponent decreases, Cuchulain's mantle becomes more and more powerful compared to Forager's, as the Attack points shift left.

Well, given your information, at approx 500 atk and 85% acc, 1 acc is slightly better than 2 atk (.59% bonus for 1 acc:.27% bonus for 1 atk).

Which lends to the idea that Foragers and Chuchulain's are about equal in that respect and Justice torque is better than chram (10 attack vs 3.7 accuracy.)

Also, keep in mind, with Marinara pizza, in many situations you can cap accuracy while getting bonus atk as well.

I agree with the equipment ideas in that situation.

As for Pizza, it is very useful - but against the really high def+level monsters it looks best to go for foods with a higher cap than +50att @ base250, since at any given attack value, increasing attack by +1 has more and more utility as mob def and/or level rises.

The real problem with my "how to get the most dmg%+?" model is that it is purely based on TP damage - the second we throw WS damage into the mix, capping accuracy at 95% before even very low attack values are reached seems like the best plan. And that heavily weighs in favor of accuracy items combined with pure attack+STR food. I am not sure how to put that into the graphs, especially considering that TP v. WS damage %s vary by job and even situation, mob, blah blah, this is why I was going to stop talking.

My model will always underestimate the value of accuracy, even when it seems to be overselling the worth of +1acc. Then again I already explained that with all the [code] sections.

...actually, the model should be spot-on for MNK, since their WS can be basically just eight more melee attacks.

[Tulun]

So on colibri and Mamools, if you are hitting 500+ attack (bard/cor or bard bard this really should be over 600), if you are sitting at 90%, the acc will have ~3.25% increase vs 0.56% for 15 attack?

[Araelus]

At 90% accuracy and 500+ attack, on G.Colibri
Acc+7 : ~3.89% increase to damage while TPing
Att+15 : ~4.01% increase to damage while TPing

although the Acc+ will increase your number of WS, and thus potentially still wins out. And on Mamool, their level+def is higher so Att is more useful, but your accuracy will be lower, so Acc+7 is more useful so go with Acc+ again.

For mantle fight, on G.Colibri (mamools not exactly) look at Chart 5 whereas a +1acc/+1att comparison is Chart 6.

I am not sure where you got the "15att: 0.56% dmg" number.

Easy way to solve the question anyway.

Another way to think of it is this: Attack while TPing increases your damage over time on TP strikes. Accuracy while TPing increases your damage over time on TP strikes and means you get more TP over time since you miss less.

At any particular Attack value and Accuracy percentage, unless the mob is very high level+defense or you are at >93% accuracy, increasing accuracy is best.

Accuracy is so disgustingly powerful.

[Max™]

....aaaaand when Accuracy is high, Haste increases the damage you do TPing, gives you even more TP, and begins to dramatically reduce the time between swings.

Gurren Dog is wise, Accuracy + Haste + Meat is the way to drill a hole through heaven.

[Tulun]

I am not sure where you got the "15att: 0.56% dmg" number.

I read the chart where it was 1 attack, not 15, for each number.

Interesting, nonetheless. Shame the about the price tag since they seem so close...

[el_tio]

I wish people would stop acting as if accuracy doesn't give TP, or that TP doesn't equate to damage.

Even people who are normally spot on.

It kind of invalidates most of the numbers in this thread so far (altho it mostly furthers the conclusion of Cuchulain > atk backpiece).

[Carrilei]

Rangers and corsairs too.

Uh, Cuchulain's Mantle is fantastic for COR.