ANNM Information and Discussion

[Knyghtmayre]

DMG+2 Delay-42 vs Crit+6%

I think Manoples wins just because you don't have to break them! D;

However, Destroyers will be much better for 2hr still imo

[Spira]

well well..
wiki lists Silk Cloak augmenting from Feeorin.. i guess that somewhat shoots the theory out of the water.. the theory also kinda forgot that cloaks take up 2 slots instead of 1.. maybe cloaks count towards Head as well?

[byte]

well well..
wiki lists Silk Cloak augmenting from Feeorin.. i guess that somewhat shoots the theory out of the water.. the theory also kinda forgot that cloaks take up 2 slots instead of 1.. maybe cloaks count towards Head as well?

This was my thoughts.. that it counts as head. Can't say I was a fan of your theory anyway because it requires body pieces to be distributed unevenly between nations.

[Yeager]

LS mate got this from Rolanberry Fields ANNM last night. Looks to be a very decent axe for a BST subbing /WHM or /SCH

http://i41.tinypic.com/2r3gvuv.jpg

[Day]

Lullaby lasted for the full duration I believe, which is 33 seconds (with Mary's Horn).

I did this last Saturday which means after enfeebling magic was fixed. Our BLM was slightly above-average but did not have full enfeebling merits (I think they said they had 2?). We killed all of the baby gnats in about 8 minutes or so with the two monks contributing most of the damage. Both are exceptional monks, one of whom had Spharai. Still, that must have required four or five sleeps, all of which were handled by the WHM, BLM, and myself with no problems.

This is probably true, but I will say lullaby sticks way way better than dark sleep on the gnats. We do start all our ANNMs with a ES Sleepga if I'm there though, but after that we started letting the bard handle the gnats, because like dude said they stop lasting full duration, and resist quite a bit.

[Yeager]

I posted this over at Allakhazam, but in case some of you hadn't seen it there, I'll copy/paste it here. This is information regarding the -25% delay reduction augment on Manoples, obtained from Jugner Forest [S] ANNM.

copy/paste below....


Well, I got into a merit party with several LS members last night. Setup was WAR, DRG, PUP x 2, BRD, RDM

Both PUP were /WAR, I was using the Manoples with -25% delay, he was using Wagh Baghnakhs. The PUP was running a parse, as well as the DRG, per my request.

Based on their observations, they were noticing that my attack speed was noticeably higher than the other PUP's attack speed. After the party, they gave a ratio of 3 punches with augmented manoples to every 2 punches from a PUP using Wagh Baghnakhs.

Then later in the evening, I asked a LS mate who has 75 MNK and unlocked Destroyers to come and duo some mobs with me to compare punching speed. I asked him to remove all of his haste gear (I removed mine as well) We went to Batallia Downs [S] and killed various stuff. We tried to initiate attack at the exact same time so that we could get a good gauge of attack speed. The first test was with me using Wagh Baghnakhs. We would both attack at the same time, then on the next round of punches, the MNK with Destroyers attacked again nearly a full second ahead of my next attack. After doing this on several mobs to get a feel for the difference in delay, I then switched to the Manoples with -25% delay. Again, we would initiate attack simultaneously. This time, after our initial attacks, the MNK would punch again just a fraction of a second ahead of my next round of punches. It almost seemed like it was simultaneous, but later on, a difference was noticeable, which led me to conclude that with the -25% delay on the Manoples, on PUP at least, the attack speed is ALMOST, but not quite, as fast as a MNK with Destroyers. (sans Haste+ gear)

Now if a MNK gets his/her hands on some Manoples with -25% delay.....the attack speed should be absolutely amazing. Can't wait to see it.

[Gtype954]

so those h2h actually attack faster then destroyers and have +2 DMG and +5 counter?

You are basically telling me destroyers had sex with the cross-counters and produced this beast?
I wanna get a pair of those to see for myself cause destroyers attack fast as hell already.

[Spira]

im bad with math, but i think a pup to pup or mnk to mnk parse would be nice.. cos MNK and PUP have difference levels of Martial Arts, and im not sure how that balances out together with the weapon... but if you explained that and I didn't get it. sorry.

[Francisco]

So am I doing this right? If you basically process the -25% Delay and neutralize everything so you can compare "the best possible" Manoples to Destroyers, it comes out to...

Destroyers: DMG: +18 Delay: +48 Critical hit rate +6%
Manoples: DMG: +20 Delay: +17 Accuracy +3 Counter +5

Is that right?

[darkhorror]

So am I doing this right? If you basically process the -25% Delay and neutralize everything so you can compare "the best possible" Manoples to Destroyers, it comes out to...

Destroyers: DMG: +18 Delay: +48 Critical hit rate +6%
Manoples: DMG: +20 Delay: +17 Accuracy +3 Counter +5

Is that right?

From the tests using weapons with -19%, -17%, and -25%. The delay doesn't seem to be calculated like it would be with haste. Instead the -delay% seems to just increase attack speed by that amount. So to get the Augmented delay you take Delay/(1+(-delay%)) so for -25% you take 422/1.25 = ~337.

Now -25% hasn't been tested on MNK yet, but -17 and -19 were and -25 was on PUP. Hoping to get some more numbers as people continue to get these. Tests are on alla mnk forums.

[Yeager]

Seems as though the -25% delay from the Manoples has been figured out! I know some of you math gurus will enjoy this.

Credit goes to Kinematics of Allakhazam

Known values:

Weapon: +122 delay

Pup @75 base delay: 360
Mnk @75 base delay: 300

-17% delay weapon on mnk: 5.0 TP per hit
-19% delay weapon on mnk: 4.9 TP per hit (Need confirmation from Xorn)
-24% delay weapon on mnk: 4.8 TP per hit

-25% delay weapon on pup: 5.3 TP per hit


Delay for:
4.8 TP per hit: 156-167 per punch, 312-335 combined
4.9 TP per hit: 168-179 per punch, 336-359 combined
5.0 TP per hit: 180-184 per punch, 360-369 combined
5.1 TP per hit: 185-188 per punch, 370-377 combined
5.2 TP per hit: 189-192 per punch, 378-385 combined
5.3 TP per hit: 193-196 per punch, 386-393 combined



What the results must be:

482 -25% >> 386-393
422 -24% >> 312-335
422 -19% >> 336-359
422 -17% >> 360-369


Simple percentile reductions:

482 -25% = 362 [not valid]
422 -24% = 321 [valid]
422 -19% = 342 [valid]
422 -17% = 350 [not valid]


Inverse scaling:

482 / 1.25 = 386 [valid]
422 / 1.24 = 340 [not valid]
422 / 1.19 = 355 [valid]
422 / 1.17 = 361 [valid]


The 19% value ends up being valid using either method. The remaining values are valid in only one of the two configs.


Quantity range removed:

482 > 386-393 == 89-96
422 > 312-335 == 87-110
422 > 336-359 == 63-86
422 > 360-369 == 53-62

Range removed divided by delay value:

89-96 / .25 = 356-384
87-110 / .24 = 363-459
63-86 / .19 = 332-453
53-62 / .17 = 312-365


The only range of values that fit all 4 of the above are 363-365. It's also interesting the that the pup value range is so close to the mnks' value ranges. From that, I'm going to propose a hypothesis.


Hypothesis:

The -delay value has a cap of the base delay of the weapon that it can apply to. This cap is at 180 per weapon, or 360 for combined delay on H2H (or possibly just 360 total delay, period). So:

Mnk:
Base + weapon = 422, over 360 cap. Delay reduction is calculated on 360 and subtracted from 422.

17%:
360 * .17 = 61.2
422 - 61.2 = 360.8 => 360
TP per hit: 5.0
[matches]

19%:
360 * .19 = 68.4
422 - 68.4 = 353.6 => 353
TP per hit: 4.9
[matches]

24%:
360 * .17 = 86.4
422 - 86.4 = 335.6 => 335
TP per hit: 4.8
[matches]

25% (pup):
360 * .25 = 90
482 - 90 = 392
TP per hit: 5.3
[matches]



Matches all 4 currently known cases.

Possible secondary validation:

If any of those with the weapon can delevel to 74 to retest, the predicted TP per hit would be:

-17% (mnk): 5.2
-19% (mnk): 5.1
-24% (mnk): 4.9
-25% (mnk): 4.9
-17% (pup): 5.9
-19% (pup): 5.8
-24% (pup): 5.6
-25% (pup): 5.6




If this is the way that this augment is calculated, then the full -25% delay version would have a final delay of 332 on mnk, and may possibly be compared/verified with FRAPSing vs Lynx Baghnakhs.

Adjusting the numbers I used on page 2, that would put these at 5.4% above Destroyers, fully on par with Faiths. Any other augments (eg: +2 acc, as I've seen reported) would push them a bit above Faiths.

[Znake]

DMG+2 Delay-42 vs Crit+6%

I think Manoples wins just because you don't have to break them! D;

However, Destroyers will be much better for 2hr still imo

Well, Faiths are better than Destroyers for HF, so no point in keeping them after you get these superior Manoples.

[Ratatapa]

time to do those ANNM for my mnk then lol

[Yeager]

time to do those ANNM for my mnk then lol

Jugner Forest [S] ANNM is the one you need to do for a shot at these augmented Manoples.

I'm not sure how common the -25% delay augment is though, I've only seen mine, and one other that was posted earlier in this thread.

So with -25% delay augment, you basically get a weapon that is DMG: 20, Delay +32 and possibly with other tasty augments as well. That's just SICK.

[ringthree]

Adjusting the numbers I used on page 2, that would put these at 5.4% above Destroyers, fully on par with Faiths. Any other augments (eg: +2 acc, as I've seen reported) would push them a bit above Faiths.

5.4% of what? Damage? Delay?

[Zilong]

Theoretical DPS

[Malacite]

You're getting in more swings, but Destroyers can still factor in with the extra criticals throwing the whole parse off (potentially, and likely only in EXP situations)

[pchan]

Hmm -25% augmented manoples with counter 5 acc3 or Hades Sainti +1. Both are 5ish% more than destroyers, but with the counter5 and taking into account the situtaions where acc is unneeded ...

[ringthree]

Theoretical DPS

Theoretical DPS of Faith is 5.4% higher than Destroyers? If that is the presumption here then the theoretical numbers need to be reworked.

This isn't based on the "numbers" from Alla, are they? Because only one person came up with Faith being ahead theoretically and that is because they left out several factors to prove their own hypothesis.

[Yeager]

I can try to get some clarification from Kinematics, if you wish. To be honest, I'm not 100% sure what he's basing his numbers on when he talks about the percentages over Destroyers, etc.

*edit* - I found the information Kinematics was basing his numbers off of. Kinda hard to understand unless you're a math guru, which I am not. Please note that this information was posted BEFORE we were able to figure out the correct formula used to calculate the -25% delay on the Manoples

Inserting Copy/Paste here, Credit again to Kinematics from the Allakhazam boards

Doing a comparison using the configs I used in the weapon comparison thread:

Baseline mid-level (from Destroyers):

Lvl 82 GColibri:

Attack: 400 + 60 + 65 = 525
Defense: 327 - 10% (Dia II) = 295
cRatio = 1.43

Crit rate: 7% + 4% = 11%

Base punch damage: 35+20+4=59
Base kick damage: 39

Brutal earring
2 KA merits

100 attack rounds = 200 punches + 10 DA punches + 14.5 kicks

Baseline:
- punches: 23.1 crit, 186.9 non-crit
- kicks: 1.595 crit, 12.905 non-crit

Baseline damage (d18/dly348/+0 crit): (186.9 * 1.43 * 57) + (23.1 * 2.43 * 57) + (12.905 * 1.43 * 39) + (1.595 * 2.43 * 39) = 19,304.67

Aug Manoples damage: (186.9 * 1.43 * 59) + (23.1 * 2.43 * 59) + (12.905 * 1.43 * 39) + (1.595 * 2.43 * 39) = 19,951.47

Add weaponskill damage (assumed 75/25 split): 19,951.47 * 4/3 = 26,601.96

Scaled for delay difference: 26,601.96 * 348 / 338 = 27,389

Destroyers total: 26,457.76

Improvement over Destroyers: +3.5%


Note that the weaponskill damage approximation is really a cheapskate way of calculating it, and reality could swing it either way. I should probably go back and redo those comparisons with more precise numbers. Anyway..


The overall conclusion is in favor of the augmented manoples, at 3.5% better than a typical setting using Destroyers with 'good' gear. They are probably very nearly on par with Faiths, without the need for virtue stones. Faiths may still pull ahead; it would depend on the weaponskill numbers.