ANNM Information and Discussion

[Ruuz]

lolwut Ringthree? Do you honestly not think these will do better than Destroyers? +2 base damage is equivalent to +8STR that ignores fSTR cap. That alone makes them almost equal to Destroyers when delay is equal (while tp will yield slightly less dmg, since Asuran cant crit, you will even out on WS). When you give it 10-20 less delay, things just get better. At that point, not only is tp dot better, but ws damage is larger and happens more frequently.

If you can get Counter +5 and Acc +3 on them, my dream of Spharai might disappear.

[ringthree]

I can try to get some clarification from Kinematics, if you wish. To be honest, I'm not 100% sure what he's basing his numbers on when he talks about the percentages over Destroyers, etc.

I believe it was from another thread in which someone (him?) suggested that Faith was superior to Destroyers and the math was roundly rejected.

Even if his math is sound, in reality for whatever the reason the math does not match the parse. I have parsed Destroyers and Faith in the past and Destroyers always came out ahead by a decent margin over a similar number of Colibri. I can try parsing them again if necessary.

[ringthree]

lolwut Ringthree? Do you honestly not think these will do better than Destroyers? +2 base damage is equivalent to +8STR that ignores fSTR cap. That alone makes them almost equal to Destroyers when delay is equal (while tp will yield slightly less dmg, since Asuran cant crit, you will even out on WS). When you give it 10-20 less delay, things just get better. At that point, not only is tp dot better, but ws damage is larger and happens more frequently.

If you can get Counter +5 and Acc +3 on them, my dream of Spharai might disappear.

I didn't say anything at all about the Manoples. I only questioned the Destroyers/Faith comparison.

[midguardian]

In the same Alla thread, someone pointed out that the -delay on the augmented Gully obtained from ANNM is in the neighborhood of -7%. A decent weapon, but nothing special, like most ANNM augments. On a 75 MNK, the Manoples have delay 300 + 122 = 422. Consider that 25% of 122 is about 30 and that 30/422 = 7%.

So, while the -25% delay currently applies to the full delay and not just the additional weapon delay, I doubt this is how they are intended to work.

Conclusion: Run out and get the new augmented Manoples and enjoy, but don't throw anything away yet.

[Cream Soda]

I believe it was from another thread in which someone (him?) suggested that Faith was superior to Destroyers and the math was roundly rejected.

Even if his math is sound, in reality for whatever the reason the math does not match the parse. I have parsed Destroyers and Faith in the past and Destroyers always came out ahead by a decent margin over a similar number of Colibri. I can try parsing them again if necessary.

Faiths wipe the floor with destroyers. Parse again

[Ruuz]

Faiths wipe the floor with destroyers. Parse again

I'm wondering if the Faiths he was parsing against had Faith Stones equipped. Really, I think Faith is best weapon for monk bar none, but you have to do a lot of sea farming for it.

[ringthree]

Faiths wipe the floor with destroyers. Parse again

I will, but I have seen no reliable evidence for Faith's either in parses or in theory. I haven't done the parse in a long time, pre-Usukane, but I am willing to try again. I have no problem switching if Faith's are proven to be better than the other.

[Cream Soda]

I don't have a comparative parse, but I'll post a parse I was doing with faiths when I get back to my house.

[Zilong]

I will, but I have seen no reliable evidence for Faith's either in parses or in theory. I haven't done the parse in a long time, pre-Usukane, but I am willing to try again. I have no problem switching if one is proven to be better than the other.

You're either not looking hard enough, or just looking for something that you wanted to see, but I always thought that it's a generally known fact among MNKs that faith is the best non relic/mythic weapon, it's just that the stone consumption rate is a bit too bitchy for a job that gets twice the attack round for almost half the delay of other jobs that would get practical use out of a virtue weapons.

[ringthree]

You're either not looking hard enough, or just looking for something that you wanted to see, but I always thought that it's a generally known fact among MNKs that faith is the best non relic/mythic weapon, it's just that the stone consumption rate is a bit too bitchy for a job that gets twice the attack round for almost half the delay of other jobs that would get practical use out of a virtue weapons.

I don't care one way or the other really. With the advent of the mog satchel I can carry around tons and tons of stones no problem.

The theory craft behind all the suggestions for Faith being better has been either wrong or obviously slanted from what I have seen, and like I said, I haven't seen a parsed difference. I have no problem admitting I am wrong, I just want to see the proof first.

[Malacite]

Have you ever even seen a Faith MNK? The number of attacks they get in trumps Destroyers easily.

[miokomioko]

Have you ever even seen a Faith MNK? The number of attacks they get in trumps Destroyers easily.

How about the number of Cure IVs and interrupted Utsusemi: Ichis?

[ringthree]

Have you ever even seen a Faith MNK? The number of attacks they get in trumps Destroyers easily.

/facepalm

Seriously?

/facepalm

[Ruuz]

I think the biggest math issues surrounding Faith are the Double Attack + Attack Twice. As I have been told, they stack so your max number of hits in one round can be as great as 7 (2 regular hits, 2 double attack, 2 attack twice, 1 kick attack). It is the potential for 3 attacks per hand in a round that really ups the normal DoT damage, not to mention much more frequent WS.

[Malacite]

YouTube - On Monk Footwork, NPC Fellow LVL 70 and F.Bagh.

Not the best video (as it's sped up and the guy switches to footwork partway through) but the TP he gets is nuts...

Plus, over @ wiki I'm fairly certain the MNK in that video on the Seed Crystal page is using faith (after hitting hundred fists the guy practically spams Asuran)

[Cream Soda]

ruh roh, he posted a Genome vid. Here, bud, you may need this flame shield *passes Mala a flame shield*

[Fallyn]

lolol.

[Ratatapa]

how i go with Faith is this simple

Zerging faith > destroyers
Normal meripo destroyers > faith

2 brd meripo (imo) faith > destroyers with double march and double minuet or w/e lol

[Ruuz]

Lol at bringing anything Genome into this.

Now I will concede that my damage estimation may be off on this. Here is how I calculate the hits/second (not including Kick attacks):

(120/(300+113))*(100/(100-Haste))*((100+DA)/100)*(Acc%/100)*1.5

This will give fist hits per second for Faith. At 0 Haste, 0 DA, and 95% Acc, Faiths will hit .4140 times per second, while Destroyers will hit .3276 times per second. So about 26% more hits. Actually dicking around a bit, no matter what value of Acc/Haste/DA I plug in, Faiths will always attack ~26% more than Destroyers.

Let's assume that you have pDIF 1 (1.02 for Destroyers using Black Tathlum under best circumstances), and capped fSTR for both (this will favor Destroyers as they are 1 weapon rank higher), we will also do this at 80% hitrate for Faith (82% for Destroyers using Black Tathlum)

Destroyers: 1000 Attack Rounds @ 82%Acc = 1640 punches, 123 kicks.
[1394*63*1.02] + [246*63*2.02] = 120,884.4
[112*43*1.02] + [11*43*2.02] = 5,867.78
TOTAL = 126,752.18 dmg

Faith Baghnakhs: 843 Attack Rounds @ 80%Acc = 2022 punches, 101 kicks.
[1840*53*1] + [182*53*2] = 116,812
[92*43*1] + [9*43*2] = 4,730
TOTAL = 121,542 dmg

Considering ~20 hits to WS and 600dmg Asuran on average, the total for Faith's becomes 133,002 dmg, or ~4.9% better than Destroyers. This is with everything being in Destroyers favor, too. As cute as +Crit is, dont be fooled by it. Crit increases damage by a lot for a relatively small amount of hits, while increasing STR and base damage increase the bigger portion of your damage by a smaller percent, but usually to larger effect.

Brb, working on comparative numbers for 336 delay Manoples (since we know it is at least this low).

[Ruuz]

So continuing with the same assumptions:

Aug. Manoples: 1035 Attack Rounds @82%Acc = 1697 punches, 127 kicks.
[1545*65*1.02] + [152*65*2.02] = 122,391.1
[116*43*1.02] + [11*43*2.02] = 6,043.22
TOTAL = 128,434.32 dmg

(~130,144.32 when you take into consideration ~2.85 more WS)
This is also the worst possible case for -25% Manoples. If the -25% yields less delay than 336, as well as +Acc/+Counter things just get better. I'm not sure if it is possible or not, but I would probably give up any dreams of Spharai if I could get -25% delay, 3Acc, +5 Counter.