SMN Update Testing

[Reapz]

I don't know why so many people are getting uptight about the perp-2 augment anyway, you have the following augments available:

Pet: Accuracy+15, Ranged Accuracy+15 - Accuracy shouldn't be a problem with SMN skill gear and current +accuracy pieces, even considering taking accuracy merits out to put into mab after update

Pet: Attack+15, Ranged Attack+15 - Good, if I were to change perp-2 to anything it would be this, even though BPs are so random and most of the time I can't see my lv5 attack merits making a difference it is obviously something

Pet: Magic Accuracy+7 "Magic Atk. Bonus"+7 - I already wanted this before update because damage was already decent for a LV75 BP at LV5 but update made them stronger, so this choice should be a no brainer for anyone who merited the 75 BPs, unless you never ever have a use for them

Pet: "Double Attack" +2% Critical hit rate +2% - Looked good but it was mainly dependant on the double attack and from what I can see from tests so far its pretty lame, you get more crit rate on AF2/+1 body

Avatar Perpetuation Cost -2 - If you have a Penance Robe then its pointless, if you don't and don't want to buy one(like me) then its good. Yes AF2 gives -3 on the matching day and for those situations the augment becomes useless, but there are plenty of times where you use an avatar on a non-matching day(for me atleast, i'm sure plenty of others too but trolls will say otherwise). Sure -1 perp is only 20 mp a minute but shit adds up and with other perp gear adds up even more

"Blood Pact" ability delay -4 - Useless if you have YYR

[Shin Volcano]

I soloed 3-4 years ago as lvl 68, so yes i soloed it.

Edit:
I used carbuncle and it was long fight, i didnt use any BP. Now i could use Fenrir without land BP. I wanted to try it with diabolos(somnolence+nether blast) but other person claimed it.

your level dosn't matter, since it's a wide area to run around, that dosn't give you any points, you just counterd your self saying you used carby with a "fenrir > all" statment, and i can already tell you how it will go, you will run out of mp.

[Indalecia]

Hey guys, stop shitting up my thread. If you can choose anything you want and maintain your mp, good for you. Now shut the fuck up.

[Ashokan]

I'm a little baffled how this is an argument.

Obviously perp is worth more for some than others. If you have all/almost all the perp gear and/or don't feel the need for perp because you primarily use Carby and/or do a lot of HNM type of fights... then no shit, perp probably isn't worth much to you.

If you don't have money or leather for Penance and rarely use carby when farming/soloing/duoing/trioing then it might be worth it. For some, probably not those on this board, they might not even have a lot of perp gear, in which case it would be worth it.

Assuming the person doesn't have ability to obtain Penance, it's not like you can say there aren't situations where -1 perp wouldn't be a little bit handy. With the options for mp regeneration today, sometimes you can sustain avatars other than Carby for a long period of time, maybe that gets you closer to that for days when Relic doesn't match a good avatar. You'd have 100 extra per siphon. For people who want to take advantage of that, it might be worth it. I'm not, but it's conceivable.

[Shin Volcano]

I'm a little baffled how this is an argument.

Obviously perp is worth more for some than others. If you have all/almost all the perp gear and/or don't feel the need for perp because you primarily use Carby and/or do a lot of HNM type of fights... then no shit, perp probably isn't worth much to you.

If you don't have money or leather for Penance and rarely use carby when farming/soloing/duoing/trioing then it might be worth it. For some, probably not those on this board, they might not even have a lot of perp gear, in which case it would be worth it.

Assuming the person doesn't have ability to obtain Penance, it's not like you can say there aren't situations where -1 perp wouldn't be a little bit handy. With the options for mp regeneration today, sometimes you can sustain avatars other than Carby for a long period of time, maybe that gets you closer to that for days when Relic doesn't match a good avatar. You'd have 100 extra per siphon. For people who want to take advantage of that, it might be worth it. I'm not, but it's conceivable.

Actually due to Elemental Siphon, MP shouldn't even be an issue really, that's what makes it further not worth it, i personaly never wanted a penace since YYR/AF2 was more then enough for me,and i'v never been in a situtation where i needed -2 prep, because the fight is already done before MP becomes an issue. i don't honestly see where it is Needed on RR, i think it's a Gold mine having MAB+7 and attack/accuracy boost at your disposal since that really helps diabolos/ other pets 2 hour and even Meteorite. you won't be up shit creek choosing it, but you won't go any further with it either.

[umisame]

your level dosn't matter, since it's a wide area to run around, that dosn't give you any points, you just counterd your self saying you used carby with a "fenrir > all" statment, and i can already tell you how it will go, you will run out of mp.

OK.

[Spira]

-2 perp is by no means bad..
most people have a good reason to pass on this if they already have penance robe or smn doublet, or only play BP-> Release style..

but what this -2 perp really does is expands the options of the summoner where possible or where necessary. It isn't always in your best interest to use avatar of the day, nor is it always in your best interest to BP > release. but certainly, it is the most common way of doing things..

If you're a main SMN, having a strong perp build is an absolute must as it extends your livelihood. 20 mp saved per minute per perp is nothing, true.. but it adds up with each point, and over time. And if you're so lucky as to hit 0, the mp 'saved' reaches infinity - and that opens alot of doors...


For me, I got my Redingote 2 days ago (perp-2, m.acc/mab7) and its already made itself useful with the -perp.
This was when I was doing one of the new ANNMs, Groot Slang. For about 20minutes of the fight, my Leviathan was single-handedly tanking the boss whilst the rest of the PT killed the adds. With that extra -1 perp cost, i saved 400mp in the process (couldn't siphon cos levia was holding the boss to begin with) and effectively became the tank for the fight. Levi needed no support outside of his own Spring Water for cures... and I had fun DDing with 8mp Barracuda Dives from MP gained back with Refresh and Ballad both up, but I was losing more MP than I could recover whilst tanking this due to Spring Water, so the 400 MP saved went a long way...
I probably coulda just bought enough hi-ethers to make up the difference.. but the point is that the perp can buy you gains in more ways than just that 20mp/min/perp story.

btw, using Leviathan really does make holding/tanking Groot Slang a joke

[Karbuncle]

Both Sides have a Decent Argument.

My SMN is used mostly for only Endgame Events, Sea, Sky, etc, etc. In Those Situations I always have Refresh, and conserving MP is never a problem, I can even let my Avatars Melee with it only being about 2MP a Tic with HQ staff and 1 Form of 3MP/tic Refresh, with Sublimation i can keep them out almost indefinitely if i needed, And in most situations its just a simple Summon > Buff > BP > Release, making the -2perp Ineffective in -MY- situation.

I also use my SMN for solo'ing, But not anything major, Just the basic Carbuncle Kiting Bombs, Murdering Pots in sky with a friend, all of these Situations Where Double Attack/Critical Hit Rate would be effective, as the mobs die before MP constraints become any issue.

Now, I can't Think of a Single Situation outside of maybe ENM "Like the Wind" SMN solo where Perp-2 Would be More useful than Attack, Accuracy, Magic Attack, Double Attack, etc, for -ME-.

Because if your in a Serious Endgame linkshell, you'll have at least one form of Refresh, and you won't be having your Avatars out meleeing all to often, And even with Mediocre gear and 1 form of Refresh most avatars should only cost 4-5MP, Garuda should be 2-3 with K.Hachigane, and the M.acc/M.atk (For those SMN's who realize the amazing assets the 75 BP's can be) Far out ways keeping your avatar out another 30 Seconds for anything Endgame.

If your soloing anything VT or Higher, I can't imagine Why you'd want to use anything but Carbuncle kiting, As BP's Would just generate too much Hate over time and the risk of Whiffing a BP Could get you killed, and not to mention Carbuncle would always be free.

However, For a More Casual SMNs, like those who simply use the job For solo'ing Weaker mobs (EP~EM) for Fun, Or use it to Solo Simpler High End NMs Where Garuda could take the NM down in a Timely manor, Amemet would be an Example of a Tougher NM, but soloable by a good SMN with good Perp- and Kiting skills, Avatar Perpetuation Cost-2 Would be a right choice for you!

However, For any situation other than a Select few ENMs, Solo'ing with your Avatar, and Weaker High End NMs, The other Benefits from this Body will outshine Perp-2.

Is perp-2 for everyone? God no.
But it can be right for some people, However completely retarded it may be to pass up Double Attack or Macc/matk which is impossible to get for your Avatar (Bar Macc/Matk on Random Augmented Items)

Inb4: "If your in a Real endgame LS you wouldn't be on SMN anyway"

The only Real Benefit from a permanent Perp-2 Would be a "/l HAY LOOK, MY GARUDA IS FREE LOL"

[geno3302]

Try soloing something that takes 1hr+ with carby, you can't do any BPs because of enmity and how much HP the thing has. You will wish you could summon Fenrir to make things faster, the -2 perpetuation cost lets you keep him out longer making the fight shorter. Yes, if you have Penance robe then it's worthless. If you don't have the gil and solo hard things NOT for EXP, then it is worth it. The Enmity+5 on YYR wont really help you out until about 30-40min into the fight depending on your enmity- gear, and that's only if you've summoned while in enmity range of the monster. If you go with ATT+15, that should help you kill the thing faster as well. But, if you're that interested in soloing big things, you should be going for a Penance robe so you can change the RR to something better.

[nitsuj]

Inb4: "If your in a Real endgame LS you wouldn't be on SMN anyway"

If you're in a real endgame LS that doesn't use SMN's (situationally) you're in the wrong linkshell.

[Karbuncle]

Try soloing something that takes 1hr+ with carby, you can't do any BPs because of enmity and how much HP the thing has. You will wish you could summon Fenrir to make things faster, the -2 perpetuation cost lets you keep him out longer making the fight shorter. Yes, if you have Penance robe then it's worthless. If you don't have the gil and solo hard things NOT for EXP, then it is worth it. The Enmity+5 on YYR wont really help you out until about 30-40min into the fight depending on your enmity- gear, and that's only if you've summoned while in enmity range of the monster. If you go with ATT+15, that should help you kill the thing faster as well. But, if you're that interested in soloing big things, you should be going for a Penance robe so you can change the RR to something better.

Level 75 Fenrir is 11MP
-3 Staff (HQ Staff)
-1~3 Body (YYrobe/Various other crap, Redingote/Penance, Relic Body)
-1 Hands (Nashira)
-1 Ring (Evoker's)
-1 Feet (Pigache's +1)
-1 Auto-refresh (Job Trait, Duh)

Now, on Darksday you'll be looking at 1MP a tic for Fenrir, Any other time 3MP a tic for Fenrir, and With your idea of Perp-2 On Rendingote, 2MP a tic.

I didn't include Sanction/Sigil Refresh, or Conjurer's Ring, or Hell, Even SMn's Horn for -3 With SCH Weather Effect, Which would Make Fenrir Free in all 3 Situations

I'm Confused what side of the Argument on, So Don't take this as Directed at you, just a general Note that, 1 More Perp isn't going to help you outside of One Situation, Ever. and that is Solo'ing a Tough Mob or NM. Every Other Situation has much Better Alternatives or is over to quickly for it to matter, And with (at worst) 4-5MP/tic Fenrir should fit anyones needs. Not to Mention if your solo'ing anything worth your time you'd bring some form of Meds, Yagudo Drinks, Etc or you're unprepared and shouldn't be soloing anyway

If you're in a real endgame LS that doesn't use SMN's (situationally) you're in the wrong linkshell.

I agree with this, as i stated in my opening line that i use SMN for endgame. i was just anticipating the Abundant Ignorance of others which seems to be overflowing here.

[Shin Volcano]

If you're in a real endgame LS that doesn't use SMN's (situationally) you're in the wrong linkshell.

^

He has a point, even tho i have amax merited WHM and SCH, i was still using SMN on HNMs...there will always be fights SMN is best suited. Not one Wyrm fight is without one to be honest, Cept lolfaf. and Ouryu..

[Acturus]

-2 Perpetuation Cost saves you 40MP every two minutes over existing body pieces.

One Hi-Ether Tank gives you 50MP every 60 seconds.

If 20MP a minute makes or breaks you as a Summoner, then you have serious problems using Summoner to its full capabilities.

But this has nothing to do with elitism. It comes down to unique value.

The Summoners who view -2 Perp Cost as one of the two best possible stats don't fully appreciate what the potential augmentations offer.

I'll take 15 more accuracy than one less perpetuation cost when my Avatar is melee'ing. That accuracy is worth the "extra" perpetuation.

[Karbuncle]

-2 Perpetuation Cost saves you 40MP every two minutes over existing body pieces.

One Hi-Ether Tank gives you 50MP every 60 seconds.

If 20MP a minute makes or breaks you as a Summoner, then you have serious problems using Summoner to its full capabilities.

But this has nothing to do with elitism. It comes down to unique value.

The Summoners who view -2 Perp Cost as one of the two best possible stats don't fully appreciate what the potential augmentations offer.

I'll take 15 more accuracy than one less perpetuation cost when my Avatar is melee'ing. That accuracy is worth the "extra" perpetuation.

Yes Yes Yes yes!
Completely Agree.

Accuracy, Attack, Magic Accuracy, Magic Attack, Double Attack, Critical Hit, all Unique and Valuable stats to a SMN, Many of which you cannot get on the Body Armor, And some you cannot get at all outside of Mythic Weapons

[Silenka]

Hey guys, stop shitting up my thread. If you can choose anything you want and maintain your mp, good for you. Now shut the fuck up.

+1

[Shin Volcano]

-2 Perpetuation Cost saves you 40MP every two minutes over existing body pieces.

One Hi-Ether Tank gives you 50MP every 60 seconds.

If 20MP a minute makes or breaks you as a Summoner, then you have serious problems using Summoner to its full capabilities.

But this has nothing to do with elitism. It comes down to unique value.

The Summoners who view -2 Perp Cost as one of the two best possible stats don't fully appreciate what the potential augmentations offer.

I'll take 15 more accuracy than one less perpetuation cost when my Avatar is melee'ing. That accuracy is worth the "extra" perpetuation.

See now i am mad i didn't explain it this way, i just cut to the chase telling him it was a waste, but you pretty much solved that issue with this, there is already a -2 prep body..why on earth would you even consider it on a Peice that has 3 other far better options at your disposal.

[Tarage]

I'm still chasing the Free Fenrir dream~

[Ashokan]

I don't think it's the perp-2 is the right choice for everyone, but I don't understand how anyone can say perp-2 should not be taken under any circumstances.

If 20MP a minute makes or breaks you as a Summoner, then you have serious problems using Summoner to its full capabilities.

If these people need the -2 perp cost to control MP, they need to learn to play better.

And you could make the argument that people have serious problems and need to learn to play if they can't successfully use SMN without the other RR augments.

there is already a -2 prep body.

It comes down to unique value.

Penance Robe isn't obtainable by everyone, maybe someday, but now. Therefore for some people, perp-2 is unique whenever the avatar of the day isn't feasible.

I'll take 15 more accuracy than one less perpetuation cost when my Avatar is melee'ing. That accuracy is worth the "extra" perpetuation.

So, not only will you skip the RR perp-2, but any perp/refresh body and use an accuracy instead when the avatar is meleeing and you claim that's more efficient? Perhaps you mean perp-2 and accuracy, DarkRift thanks you for your support.

One Hi-Ether Tank gives you 50MP every 60 seconds.

Excellent, with perp-2 everything should be basically free then, right? Meaning Carby is useless now! DarkRift thanks for you for your support.

(some comments were not entirely serious, don't quote me as such)

[Shin Volcano]

have you even been reading any of the posts that dont go along with the way you think?

I have been reading, but it dosnt escape the fact of what has just been said, if you really want a stat that is already on a peice, vs 4 more unique stats that will serve you better, then go right ahead. i guess if a Morrigan's robe BLM can choose MAB+4 and full time it, anything is possible to.

It's not a matter of what i "think" people can still do/choose whatever they want. better options were givin, you can take it or leave it, if a WHM wants to put Enimit+5 on a RR they by all means are allowed to do so.

[Spira]

-2 Perpetuation Cost saves you 40MP every two minutes over existing body pieces.

One Hi-Ether Tank gives you 50MP every 60 seconds..

-2 Perp Cost saves you 20MP per minute over existing body pieces (bar Relic Doublet with avatar of the day) for as long as you have MP and as long as your avatar is out.

One Hi-Ether Tank gives you 50MP every 60 seconds, but also takes up 15 seconds of your time for being able to do anything at all, not to mention, with the extra -2 Perp Cost, nothing is stopping you from using the Hi-Ether Tank as well.
So if you want to go down this line of argument, 2 perp cost and 1 hi-ether a minute gives you 70 MP saved in a minute, which is still more than a hi-ether alone.

If 20MP a minute makes or breaks you as a Summoner, then you have serious problems using Summoner to its full capabilities.

This is true in optimum situations, but the game (or the people you play with) doesn't always present you with those. And as mentioned before 20MP/minute is little, but it adds up. The difference between a free Fenrir and a 1 MP/tic Fenrir is 20MP/minute as well, but when you have him free it extends his use indefinitely. This goes to prove a point that 20mp/minute at 1mp/tic perp and 15mp/tic perp (and everywhere in between) are taken to bring vastly different amounts of value to the job. As such, the 20mp/min shouldn't be taken at face value and brushed off for the fact that its such a small figure.

The Summoners who view -2 Perp Cost as one of the two best possible stats don't fully appreciate what the potential augmentations offer.

I'll take 15 more accuracy than one less perpetuation cost when my Avatar is melee'ing. That accuracy is worth the "extra" perpetuation.

The accuracy is pointless for BP as long as you're backed up with sufficient skill, and if you're using it for leaving the avatar out to melee, then perpetuation is going to be useful to you since you're not going to see significant returns from the acc unless you leave the avatar out for long periods of time.

The same logic applies for attack and crit/DA. These stats are useless in the grand scheme of things if you're only BPing. Attack because avatar physical damage numbers have never been consistent to begin with, and Crit/DA because its 2% and the DA seems to add a normal attack once in every 10-50 BPs. Thats alot of gains..

The only time you'll see those augments shine is if you leave your avatar out.
For people who are eschewing the playstyle of leaving avatars out, you are suddenly telling us that those very augments that rely on this situation have the most potential?
Unless you're fighting shit weak mobs, in the amount of time that you're going to need to build the noticeable difference gap in damage or accuracy vs avatars which dont have this stat, you're better off with the MP saved... to leave them out even longer or do to other things