SMN Update Testing

[Reapz]

I know nothing about SMN, I mean completely nothing.

Does the Pet: Magic Attack Bonus actually apply to their physical bloodpacts? Is there even a difference between magical and physical bloodpacts for the meritable bloodpacts?

No it applies to their magical bloodpacts (Nether Blast, IV spells, merit bloodpacts), really nice especially with the merit bloodpact buff

[Acturus]

I know nothing about SMN, I mean completely nothing.

Does the Pet: Magic Attack Bonus actually apply to their physical bloodpacts? Is there even a difference between magical and physical bloodpacts for the meritable bloodpacts?

There is definitely a difference. Think of Physical pacts as weaponskills, and merit pacts as Nukes. Resists happen in different ways, different stats augment the accuracy/damage. About the only thing they have in common is that the accuracy of each is affected by Summoning Magic skill.

These earrings are significant because Summoners don't get to buff pets much at all, and our earring slots are atrocious. The best we have is +3 skill other than these augments. Same with some of the waist items.

[frodnonnag]

There is definitely a difference. Think of Physical pacts as weaponskills, and merit pacts as Nukes. Resists happen in different ways, different stats augment the accuracy/damage. About the only thing they have in common is that the accuracy of each is affected by Summoning Magic skill.

These earrings are significant because Summoners don't get to buff pets much at all, and our earring slots are atrocious. The best we have is +3 skill other than these augments. Same with some of the waist items.

our base stats don't affect the avatar, and we also have new rings, +3 pet acc.

[Toth]

Ok, Did Shiva Testing on a REAL mob.

uh here,

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../ShivaFort.jpg

Details?

Consistent damage or just one super shot at x tp?

[Spira]

No it applies to their magical bloodpacts (Nether Blast, IV spells, merit bloodpacts), really nice especially with the merit bloodpact buff

Not that its the most useful at higher levels, it also applies to all Astral Flow bloodpacts, which is worth noting..

I suppose when you're able to stack em all up you will get pretty nice results

[Kaeko]

For any SMNs interested, I had a discussion with a couple well-established SMNs on the Alla SMN forums a few months back about innate MAB traits on each avatar.

Based on numbers they provided and some number crunching, I determined that each Avatar has its own base MAB trait. The 6 elemental avatars (all but Diabolos, Carbuncle, and Fenrir) have the equivalent of MAB trait IV on a BLM (MAB+32) while Diabolos has 0. Fenrir and Carbuncle were untested.

So when you equip things like +2 pet MAB earrings, you will see bigger increases from Diabolos Netherblast than say Heavenly Strike because remember MAB has diminishing returns. That +2MAB will basically be +2% damage on Netherblast but only +1.52% increase in damage from the 6 basic elemental avatars.

(this is also why I think the 6 basic avatars do higher Astral Flow numbers)

[Karbuncle]

Details?

Consistent damage or just one super shot at x tp?

Forgot Day, Not Ice Day however.
No Buffs
Redingote with +7Macc/matk
300% TP

Got that number consistently with 300%TP, very little resist, and did one i forgot to screen shot with DRG Roll for about 1600. 0% TP(two Merits) i was in the low 800's

Also nothing Impressive but did manage a 819 On JoL with 250%TP.

Edit: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...le/978Love.jpg

Iceday, 300%TP, Redingote. No other buffs. Shame i could have broken 1k if i'd of put my Astral Pot on ; - ;

[Acturus]

our base stats don't affect the avatar, and we also have new rings, +3 pet acc.

No, but Avatars do seem to have varying base stats themselves. An Avatar's DEX versus the mobs would calculate the chance to crit, or INT value differences when looking at magical resists. That's what I was getting at.

And I had seen the rings, but forgot about them. They are exciting as well.

[DAKPluto]

No, but Avatars do seem to have varying base stats themselves. An Avatar's DEX versus the mobs would calculate the chance to crit, or INT value differences when looking at magical resists. That's what I was getting at.

And I had seen the rings, but forgot about them. They are exciting as well.

In addition we know that if Carby was to get INT boost, it's meteorites do get stronger. So it is proof that stats do affect avatars. Problem is the avatar itself needs the stat boost and only Carby can currently do that.

[Toth]

Forgot Day, Not Ice Day however.
No Buffs
Redingote with +7Macc/matk
300% TP

Got that number consistently with 300%TP, very little resist, and did one i forgot to screen shot with DRG Roll for about 1600. 0% TP(two Merits) i was in the low 800's

Also nothing Impressive but did manage a 819 On JoL with 250%TP.

Edit: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...le/978Love.jpg

Iceday, 300%TP, Redingote. No other buffs. Shame i could have broken 1k if i'd of put my Astral Pot on ; - ;

Very fascinating. I guess my next question will be this:

What kind of damage ratio will these BPs do when you just summon, BP, and release? For example, I have 4 merits in Heavenly Strike (so 160TP HS ever time). Would it become viable to just use the BP every 45 secs or should we allow the avatars to build up TP through meleeing for more worthwhile returns?

[Karbuncle]

Very fascinating. I guess my next question will be this:

What kind of damage ratio will these BPs do when you just summon, BP, and release? For example, I have 4 merits in Heavenly Strike (so 160TP HS ever time). Would it become viable to just use the BP every 45 secs or should we allow the avatars to build up TP through meleeing for more worthwhile returns?

I Haven't really eyeballed many Returns with Less and more TP, Truthfully i usually go with Shiva, so i do Rush > Melee Timer down > Heavenly Strike. This usually Nets me a little over 100% TP on most mobs, Sometimes more than 120%. Now With only 2 Merits i do need to melee a bit for them to be effective enough to warrant use, but with your merits it would probably behoove you to Summon > BP > Release.

I really only go with 300% TP When i want to see the Full Potential a SMN can unleash, And in alot of Cases its pretty impressive.

Now on JoL, i'm usually hit with 2 Forms of Refresh, so depending no Day most of my avatars are free, so i just let them melee to 300% TP, using the level 70BP's inbetween, and it works very nicely. Only thing you really need is a Bit of SMN magic gear to make sure you don't get resisted. Saw some of the SMNs around me using Wind Blade for 500~700 DMG, which i think was with 0% TP (40% with the 1 Merit of course), which was better than the 70BP's.

I tried to Get a Magic burst for over 1k, But the second we set up a Skillchain and were going to do it, JoL's Pets used their PT Move that knocks back and knocked the Tanks out of "Safety" Range, Drew them in, Critical hit'd 1 for 1616 DMG one shotting it, and then killing the other slowly, but i have no doubt Shiva could have broken 1k, maybe 1.2k or beyond with a Magic burst =|

Cause a little while after that one i got this:

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...cle/981jol.jpg

Same Situation as Above. 300% TP, No Weather Bonus (Think it was Lightday by now) Unfortunately i Couldn't MB This one ._.


Anyway in the end, On mobs where MP wouldn't be an Issue, like anything where you have 2 Forms of Refresh, Evokers Roll, Refresh, Ballad, and the like. Allowing your Avatar to get 300% (After Bonuses from Additional Merits) using Level 70BP's in between isn't a bad idea, and in my situation ---usually--- nets better over all Damage than the BP > Release SMNs i group with. Though alot of them are using the 70 > melee > 75 Method now =0, and its hot. I Don't for a minute regret my decision for Pet:Macc/matk on the Redingote =x

I love this update

[Acturus]

Very fascinating. I guess my next question will be this:

What kind of damage ratio will these BPs do when you just summon, BP, and release? For example, I have 4 merits in Heavenly Strike (so 160TP HS ever time). Would it become viable to just use the BP every 45 secs or should we allow the avatars to build up TP through meleeing for more worthwhile returns?

It seems that, unless the mob is highly evasive, you should be able to get 41 more TP if you leave the avatar out between the first and second BP. Celestials have what, 320 delay*? That'd be 8.3TP per melee hit, and an attack speed of once every 5.3 seconds. You'd get about 7 attack rounds between the animation for the first bloodpact and the timer being up again, and if you can manage 75% accuracy, then you'd see another 41TP in that time.

5/5 BP plus that would be 201TP.

Oh, and a level 4 is only 120TP. The first level doesn't give the 40TP bonus, only subsequent levels. 5/5 would be 160TP.

On EP mobs, the difference between 160TP and 200TP is about 90 damage, excluding Magic Attack merits.

The question for you would be, is 90 more damage (plus maybe another 80 from the avatar's melee strikes between pacts) worth the X amount of Perpetuation Cost in that time?



*Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on the delay. I can never remember of celestials have 350 and Fenrir 320, or if it's 320/300 respectively.


*edit* And Karbuncle said it better, but I forgot about using the TP return from a multi-hit Physical 'pact like Rush to beef up your TP return as well.

[TummieGaruda]

No, but Avatars do seem to have varying base stats themselves. An Avatar's DEX versus the mobs would calculate the chance to crit, or INT value differences when looking at magical resists. That's what I was getting at.

And I had seen the rings, but forgot about them. They are exciting as well.

I have started doing testing with some friends on actually determining avatar stats and how to calculate them. What I have noticed when it comes to avatar accuracy is that pets such as Summons and Automatons bypass level correction that PC's have to deal with.

As far as individual stats, I am sure that avatars are bound by the same laws as other mobs in the game where if you can determine specific ranks (Family Rank + Job Rank + Subjob Rank), you can find out what their stats are which is my ultimate goal.

Assuming Avatars don't have MDB, having a SCH use a Helix on different avatars in Ballista should allow the avatars INT to be backsolved.

[Gutsu]

Very fascinating. I guess my next question will be this:

What kind of damage ratio will these BPs do when you just summon, BP, and release? For example, I have 4 merits in Heavenly Strike (so 160TP HS ever time). Would it become viable to just use the BP every 45 secs or should we allow the avatars to build up TP through meleeing for more worthwhile returns?

I did testing on this on previous page Toth. I have numbers with windblade if you want to take a look. The damage was increased to about 150~200 damage without tp. Then acp body adds roughly 60~80 more damage (no tp). Can get pet mab earrings also to further increase damage. And i dont think its a good idea to have avatar melee to 300%. Will take them forever to get 300% as they will miss alot on high level mobs and if the mob is spamming aoe chances are avatar will die before gets 300%. Would get more dps if just bp whenever bp is up again. But people are just trying to see what numbers avatars can pull now with 300%tp its cool to see they can do that damage with the merited moves. And in most hard fights i would spend too much time keeping buffs on pt i wouldnt have the time to have avatar melee to 300%tp. But lots of good testing i see from the merited moves keep up the info coming guys and i'll try to contribute any new finds as well. Oh and i was +1 smn skill away from reaching max amount possible including merits till that new ANNM staff came out .

[Tulun]

This might make Garuda more attractive as well, too, since it's really easy to get her free (-2 perp head regardless of day).

[Acturus]

This could create the argument that getting the -2 perpetuation on the RR could be worthwhile in conjunction with the +7 macc / matt. Keep your avatars out longer to melee a bit for your next merit BP. Not trying to start a flame argument again, but just throwing that out there.

Typically though with all the other forms of refresh its not a huge issue. I have noticed recently though I have been thrown into PT's with melee, and no refresher. :/ ( i think they expect me to keep a whole PT alive, and in some situations they are asking too much of my lil ol summoner)

It's a valid point. I won't discount it. My playstyle and perception of how I will use the Lab Coat is just different from yours.

It also helps to note opportunities when additional forms of refresh are available. 1000MP goes really fast even at 4MP a tic plus bloodpacts. What I tend to forget is that "only 40MP a minute" is still "200MP between Elemental Siphons".

[Acturus]

yeah... i think it all boils down to 2 things.

1. Your playstyle, and what you use your avatars for.


aaaaaannnddd..

2. Shit is situational!

Fucking shit, man, always fucking shit up like that.

[Shin Volcano]

In addition we know that if Carby was to get INT boost, it's meteorites do get stronger. So it is proof that stats do affect avatars. Problem is the avatar itself needs the stat boost and only Carby can currently do that.

This seriously is a problem that is easily fixed, at the very moment SMN stats do nothing to help in anyway shape or form except just basic defense mesures, and SMN can wear alot of mage gear that boost stats, but still rendured useless, i don't see why our stats can't be fixed to aid avatars. (yea i know sprit taker etc, but not that important!)

[Meian]

Needs more fixing of avatars that freeze during their BP if they Assault ==> BP then mob dies before their BP animation finishes...

[DAKPluto]

Well, the "fix" for that was the extended range of ward BPs. No need to send the mob in on an assault now to hit the DDs with a ward.

And if you are losing your Rage BP....you shouldn't have been doing it anyways at such low mob life.