Elegy nerf or HNM Buff?

[Kaeko]

Same argument you've made in multiple threads regarding MEVA (first death blossom MEVA effect, now Enspell). You assume that the decrease in MEVA is large or significant, but provide no evidence that it is. If anything, looking at prior history with abilities that lower resistances, the effect is mild on an HNM at best.

You sound like everyone is an idiot or too dumb to 'see' how good this is, but you have to provide some type of evidence to convince someone. Maybe you don't care to convince anyone and like to just see your own posts, I don't know, but if you just came with just one post that said something to the effect of I landed X% of slows on Khimaira before using Enspell/Death Blossom, and landed Y% of slows after using it, someone on this board would take you seriously.

You see fixated on the concept of melee RDM MEVA builds, but lack either the will, the knowledge, the common sense, or some combination of the above to test it yourself and show to yourself, and the FFXI world that it can be effective. All I see is "SE did this to do this" theorycraft.

I actually could have sworn I made a post near exactly like this directed to you a few months ago over Death Blossom when you hijacked that thread too. I also recall Izzy calling you an idiot in nearly the exact same manner. I guess we're the real idiots for being trolled once again?

[Ahlah]

So we're back to this again? No one on this entire forum wants to see any fucking word you type. Seriously, not a single person. You contribute nothing to any discussion but bullshit theories that you have no way of testing and one line passive-aggressive comments about "noobs" and "idiots" implying that because no one (everyone?) doesn't agree with you, they're dumb or aren't smart enough to comprenend.

Lock yourself in a closet, piss in a bucket full of bleach and take long deep breaths.

Read all your replies, you are the one who tried to start fight with me and clearly have no clue about RDM debuffs and its role in endgame activities. Can't blame me for calling you a noob.

Why are you so bitter about melee RDM? Because you upgraded the wrong relic weapon and still don't get to play melee WHM? Get Yagrush, at least you can pontentially play WHM tank if you have one (if only you are smart enough to figure out how it will help you tank)

[Ahlah]

Same argument you've made in multiple threads regarding MEVA (first death blossom MEVA effect, now Enspell). You assume that the decrease in MEVA is large or significant, but provide no evidence that it is. If anything, looking at prior history with abilities that lower resistances, the effect is mild on an HNM at best.

You sound like everyone is an idiot or too dumb to 'see' how good this is, but you have to provide some type of evidence to convince someone. Maybe you don't care to convince anyone and like to just see your own posts, I don't know, but if you just came with just one post that said something to the effect of I landed X% of slows on Khimaira before using Enspell/Death Blossom, and landed Y% of slows after using it, someone on this board would take you seriously.

You see fixated on the concept of melee RDM MEVA builds, but lack either the will, the knowledge, the common sense, or some combination of the above to test it yourself and show to yourself, and the FFXI world that it can be effective. All I see is "SE did this to do this" theorycraft.

I actually could have sworn I made a post near exactly like this directed to you a few months ago over Death Blossom when you hijacked that thread too. I also recall Izzy calling you an idiot in nearly the exact same manner. I guess we're the real idiots for being trolled once again?

I don't go around calling ppl idiot unless they don't even know the basics. If you scroll up and read the post, I wasn't even talking about the effectiveness of ENII/DB. The post was made under the assumption that ENII/DB were required for chainspell stun to work and someone thought it would be impossible to pull off meleezerg because it will take too long for RDM to build tp and inflict enspell, and I simply point out all you need is get one of the RDM to use sleep pot/wing. Doesn't take a genius to understand such a simple concept.

If you have read my post I have never once mentioned ENII/DB is definitely going to work, the same way you can't prove it won't. I simply point out it needs more testing, I won't be able to test it because I have already left the game, check my post the only time I ever use the word "idiot" is when some1 don't even understand some basic concept that has nothing to do with the effectiveness of ENII/DB.

[Kaeko]

Same argument you've made in multiple threads regarding MEVA (first death blossom MEVA effect, now Enspell). You assume that the decrease in MEVA is large or significant, but provide no evidence that it is. If anything, looking at prior history with abilities that lower resistances, the effect is mild on an HNM at best.

You sound like everyone is an idiot or too dumb to 'see' how good this is, but you have to provide some type of evidence to convince someone. Maybe you don't care to convince anyone and like to just see your own posts, I don't know, but if you just came with just one post that said something to the effect of I landed X% of slows on Khimaira before using Enspell/Death Blossom, and landed Y% of slows after using it, someone on this board would take you seriously.

You see fixated on the concept of melee RDM MEVA builds, but lack either the will, the knowledge, the common sense, or some combination of the above to test it yourself and show to yourself, and the FFXI world that it can be effective. All I see is "SE did this to do this" theorycraft.

I actually could have sworn I made a post near exactly like this directed to you a few months ago over Death Blossom when you hijacked that thread too. I also recall Izzy calling you an idiot in nearly the exact same manner. I guess we're the real idiots for being trolled once again?

2 minutes of BG searching:

Different Thread, Same Story

Izzy calling him an idiot.

Me telling him it's wrong to compare Death Blossom MEVA effect to Elemental Seal (lol)

And History repeats itself once more.

[Ahlah]

Me telling him it's wrong to compare Death Blossom MEVA effect to Elemental Seal (lol)

You seem to be under the assumption that in order for DB to replace ES, it must have the same potency as ES. In practice DB only needs to provide sufficient MEVA for BRD and RDM with good gear to land debuffs reliably, and it has at least been reported to work on TAU HNMs.

The incentive for using DB over ES (assuming it works) is that you only need one well-geared BRD/WHM and RDM to keep debuffs on HNM at the price of feeding extra TP to HNM and putting a melee RDM in your party. The fact that SE just nerfed debuff durations make it even more appealing (3 BRD/BLM to keep ES elegy on HNM all the time). It's just hard to assume that all these changes are coincidence.

[Dammerung]

@Ahlah

Shut up, go DB Cerb, then see if you can land slow reliably. Don't post until you have results.

[Skjie]

This thread is back to being about why in the world a portion of mobs suddenly have serious debuff length issues. Is it only grav/sleep/bind on HNM that is the issue? Does it happen as well for other NMs that RDMs will be soloing such as Ix'DRK? Does it happen on DOTs such as Bio? Is there a way to mitigate this other than bring more RDMs?

[Izzy]

Read all your replies, you are the one who tried to start fight with me and clearly have no clue about RDM debuffs and its role in endgame activities. Can't blame me for calling you a noob.

Pot...Kettle...have we met?

As for the Mjollnir thing, I've posted ACTUAL NUMBERS with PARSE RESULTS in some sort of VIABLE SITUATION in MULTIPLE THREADS showing how the weapons works and does not work. Where is your evidence/backup for your far fetched theories? You should really read Kaeko's post. She is probley one of the more intelligent people on BG, you might wanna listen to her.

[Thorny]

This thread is back to being about why in the world a portion of mobs suddenly have serious debuff length issues.

Bashing idiots is more fun.

Is it only grav/sleep/bind on HNM that is the issue?

Elegy is effected as well, and by the same token slow likely is but I have not confirmed it personally.

Does it happen as well for other NMs that RDMs will be soloing such as Ix'DRK?

Ix'DRK is immune to all of the relevant spells. However, it applies to fenrir zipacna and faust confirmed.. most likely any NM over a certain level is affected.

Does it happen on DOTs such as Bio?

No.

Is there a way to mitigate this other than bring more RDMs?

Not to my knowledge, and even if you could bring more RDMs most NMs build sleep and gravity resistance rather quickly. 2 50 sec gravs != 1 100 second one. Bringing more RDMs may work for bind, but that's primarily used for solo.

[The Blackrose]

I am starting to think I am posting in newbie section

If you don't like it, leave.

Time and time again, people have asked you to back up your thoughts. All you have done is belittle and browbeat people until they just ignore you. Either start posting some actual, factual stuff behind everything you are saying, or get out.

And to be relatively blunt, your attitude wouldn't last 5 seconds in Standard Discussion. It sucks.

[Skjie]

Bashing idiots is more fun.


Elegy is effected as well, and by the same token slow likely is but I have not confirmed it personally.


Ix'DRK is immune to all of the relevant spells. However, it applies to fenrir zipacna and faust confirmed.. most likely any NM over a certain level is affected.


No.


Not to my knowledge, and even if you could bring more RDMs most NMs build sleep and gravity resistance rather quickly. 2 50 sec gravs != 1 100 second one. Bringing more RDMs may work for bind, but that's primarily used for solo.

Thanks sorry, I haven't been able to login for a few months due to various things. Good to know Bio isn't effected, but this is very much balls. After the recent thread where career RDMs were complaining that our millions of gil worth of enfeebling gear was mostly placebo get another kick in the balls from SE from doing anything that isn't refresh/haste. And now Bards and BLMs get to share in our misery!

[Kirbyprime]

All they really did to BLMs was make it harder for us to solo... no biggy, I mean they did give us new options to help us get parti.. oh wait, no they didn't, scratch that.

[Duber]

I really hope this is a bug and they are fixing it. Have you guys contacted any GM about this matter or reported it ?

[Silenka]

I really hope this is a bug and they are fixing it. Have you guys contacted any GM about this matter or reported it ?

Don't even bother asking a GM. They will say 'Working as intended' because they do not have the inside info on anything. Hell, a lot of them don't even play FFXI and would probably go 'lolwut debuff duration?'

[Izzy]

The best thing you can do is submit a bug report through POL if you think it is indeed unintentional. You won't get a response though, but if they get enough complaints about the same thing, they'll probley be forced to investigate.

[Thorny]

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3294/...5yhoatorju.jpg
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/8990/...7yhoatorju.jpg
102 INT, 290 enfeebling, pluto's and ES sleepga2 resisted on all 3 mobs it hit.. I've not noticed this being a problem on other plain mobs even with ES though. Bats are naturally sleep resistant and bombs have -50% dark damage taken.. not entirely sure what that means in regard to figuring out nerf though :/

[Hex]

Any idea how this will effect Einherjar? We've been on break due to Easter but will start up Tuesday...scares me.

[Kaeko]

Were you able to get any full duration sleeps on the bats? Or were they all 1/2 even with ES?

ES is a very strong way to test this. From what I've heard, it seems like a static 1/2 duration cut AFTER all resists are put into effect (because ES doesnt' seem to be immune to this cut). This reminds me of the job traits like "Resist Sleep", which are applied after all resistances are played out.

Since Thorny's case is about normal mobs, I would venture into 2 possibilties..

1) An increase in the potency of the JOB TRAITS like resist slow, resist sleep, etc. on potency and land rate.
2) An increase in the potency of resistances (like dark resistance on bats) on the duration and partial resists.

I would look to player testing on this possibly? Everyone is talking about how this gimps your enfeebles on mobs, but what about the opposite? Perhaps resist traits on the character are more potent when stacked against a mob using the enfeeble?

EDIT: Easy test, PLD gets resist sleep traits. Prior to patch, all this did was give you a chance to resist sleep effect entirely I believe. It had little effect on the duration if you actually did get slept. Perhaps test this again now. Maybe the duration of your sleep will be halved. If this is the case, it would give strong indication that the job traits heavily effect maximal duration of the enfeeble.

EDIT AGAIN: More directed at Thorny. You can sort of test if RESISTANCE like dark resist on bats affects the duration. Dark Sleep was 1/2 resisted with ES, but if you can, try to get a BLU/BLM and try ES sheep song or Yawn and see if the duration gets halved on that as well. If it does not, then you can conclude that the mob's elemental resistance has a role in this. If the duration is still halved, then I think it has to do with TRAITS.

**********

Test1:

ES Sleepga II on Dire Bats >> 1/2 duration (45 seconds)

Test ES Yawn or ES Sheep Song on BLU/BLM on these bats and check duration halving or not. Bats have no light resist so...

Duration on BLU light sleep halved >> likely a TRAIT issue
Duration on BLU light sleep not halved >> likely an ELEMENTAL RESIST issue

Test2:

If this issue is a TRAIT issue.

Test if the trait is applied differently for a player. Take a PLD and try to find something that sleeps it. If even try PVP and ES sleep the PLD and check duration. If the duration is halved, then you can assume the trait now affects maximal duration of the enfeeble.

If this issue is an ELEMENTAL RESIST issue.

Take the same test but any job and stack on as much Dark Resistance as possible on the player in PVP (SV carol, gear, etc.) and try to ES sleep and check the duration. Perhaps the duration is based on the resistance now.

[Thorny]

Were you able to get any full duration sleeps on the bats? Or were they all 1/2 even with ES?

ES is a very strong way to test this. From what I've heard, it seems like a static 1/2 duration cut AFTER all resists are put into effect (because ES doesnt' seem to be immune to this cut). This reminds me of the job traits like "Resist Sleep", which are applied after all resistances are played out.

Since Thorny's case is about normal mobs, I would venture into 2 possibilties..

1) An increase in the potency of the JOB TRAITS like resist slow, resist sleep, etc. on potency and land rate.
2) An increase in the potency of resistances (like dark resistance on bats) on the duration and partial resists.

I would look to player testing on this possibly? Everyone is talking about how this gimps your enfeebles on mobs, but what about the opposite? Perhaps resist traits on the character are more potent when stacked against a mob using the enfeeble?

EDIT: Easy test, PLD gets resist sleep traits. Prior to patch, all this did was give you a chance to resist sleep effect entirely I believe. It had little effect on the duration if you actually did get slept. Perhaps test this again now. Maybe the duration of your sleep will be halved. If this is the case, it would give strong indication that the job traits heavily effect maximal duration of the enfeeble.

I was not able to land a single full duration sleep/sleep2/sleepga/sleepga2 on bats or bifrons while I was there(admittedly only about 90 min). It's worth noting that I did not see a single resist at all from Tonberries in the vicinity(was camping Asklepios NM and killing Friar Rush placeholders between pops), nor a sleep that didn't stick half duration exactly on bats/bombs. I would definitely agree that it's applied after resistance, though as far as the resist trait thing I was slept for full duration by simurgh's horde lullaby today on pld(though i'm not sure if lullaby counts under resist sleep.. i'd assume it does if that's the issue as people were having trouble with lullaby). One other thing worth noting is that I've never seen a bomb or bat give the Resist! The Mob Name resists the spell. message for sleep, whereas on PLD mobs in dynamis you will always get that message if you have a trait triggered resist.

It's currently 4 AM here, I'll most likely try some of those tests tomorrow. My current theory is that any mob over X total resistance(level correction/mnd if applicable, inherent resistances, anything that would effect resist rate) is getting an automatic half resist at best, similar to how you can't get a full resist when nuking an elemental with it's weak element no matter how low your skills are. The distribution of mobs I have seen this take effect on makes specific elemental resistance, traits, and just plain m.acc all seem like they are not viable reasons.

Elemental Resistance - Gravity, Bind on Fenrir, darkness based mob with no significant elemental resistances, one is part of the light series of elements the other is part of the series of dark elements, both were affected

Resist Traits - Simple, Gravity and Bind both fail on Fenrir, Zipacna, and Faust. Sleep fails on bats and bombs, neither of which have been confirmed to have a resist trait. To my knowledge any resist trait on a mob will associate the Resist! message with a resist caused by it.

Magic Accuracy - Sleepga II was elemental sealed on 3 DC mobs with an adequate(not great, but adequate) enfeebling setup on my mule. It failed on all of them, and all plain sleeps that stuck had the same issue. Likewise on Ouryu, if it were a matter of resistance there would be some distribution of 1/4 resists as well, as it's impossible to get a 0% full stick success rate without at least some amount of 1/4 and 1/8s.

[Kaeko]

My current theory is that any mob over X total resistance(level correction/mnd if applicable, inherent resistances, anything that would effect resist rate) is getting an automatic half resist at best, similar to how you can't get a full resist when nuking an elemental with it's weak element no matter how low your skills are. The distribution of mobs I have seen this take effect on makes specific elemental resistance, traits, and just plain m.acc all seem like they are not viable reasons.

Did a very easy, yet extremely eye opening test that completely backs up this idea of automatic half resist on elemental strengths.

I took my 75 RDM mule out to Qufim and Chainspell Water I'd an Acropolis (Leech Family, resistance to water).

20 water Is, ALL 29 damage (1/2 resist).

Prior to the patch, you could 'overwhelm' the innate elemental resistance of the mob if you were just that much higher level than it. For instance, I could get lucky and nuke a crab with water, and it would still do full damage. Given that 230 Ele. Skill can't land a single non-resist on a lvl30 mob now, I would say this is no longer the case!

Early conclusion for this is simply that SE has FINALLY made magic users take into account elemental strengths and weaknesses. You still don't get a damage bonus for using an element the mob is weak to, but you will get the penalty for nuking/enfeebling against the mob's element.

This would explain why you can't full duration Elegy Cerb. (strong to earth), why you get 1/2 resists on ES Sleep on bombs and bats, and why brothers ENM gives you the same 1/2 resist (taurus dark strength).

(To back this up, if someone wants to take a BRD/BLM and ES lullaby a bat, I can bank on that duration being full due to the fact bats have no light resist)