WAR and polearm

[Yugl]

Read the Live journal thing that was posted, it is the most relevant and in depth math ever done on the subject and it says Engutso 6 Hit is 3% more than Fort Axe, that is where the number is from so I did not pull it out of my ass.

I'm surprised my "article" was cited especially since I didn't show my work.

At any rate, I am aware of the weaknesses associated with the various assumptions that are necessary to simplify the calculations. In particular, I explained the use of KJ (not sure about the critical hit bonus, if any, for RR at 100 TP) and the pDIF assumption avoids concern about the shape of the distribution (only care that it appears symmetrical for high cRatio, which is still not that great a hedge as pDIF does not seem well understood for two-handed weapons anyway). (Also, it was assumed Fortitude Axe can swing up to four times in a single attack round, which is most likely false based on my experience so far.) That doesn't mean I used the same pDIF for polearm and great axe.

But, since I separated frequency of attacks from damage per attack, you can substitute the appropriate average damage estimates for both WSes (which you can get from parser output) and damage per hit in the TP phase.

Yeah Starr, real nice. Also, if *you* read the article, it compared Polearm using ENGETSU. Leviathan Couse. Gondo. Ring a bell? They were mentioned as topping Engetsu on the first page. I guess you didn't bother to recognize that though did you?

You obviously didn't even read the linked math and are just being an arguementitive little bitch because you have nothing better to do than try and get at me.

Note: In all the pile of words I just posted, all I want to see from you is the answer to one question: How much of a damage increase is Polearm in optimal gear, and show me the math for it (WS AND DoT DMG). If I receive a response other than that (Especially one in which you attack me after I've yet to hurl name-calling at you), then you're certainly not qualified for this "debate" you humbly suggest you're hosting.

Why is it that every "debate" with Starr is him finding 500 ways to that he's 12yrs old? I'm probably asking too much to have a conversation where you aren't spewing insults;yet, you ask for people to be civil logical debaters. MODs need to get in on this.

Edit: Fridell, in my response I was pointing out that "gimp" is subjective. Some may find it acceptable that WARs don't have polearm builds, but that doesn't mean others do. Hopefully, more people take this into consideration when they start calling out gimps. If you're going to call out gimps (Not you specifically, this is a general statement), then don't be upset when people call you gimp by their standards.

[Fridell]

It has its uses, and dismissing them on the grounds that they're not worth it to some people is silly.

I agree with this, and I do believe we talk the same language here.
Just that for the last few pages I think you should have been more clear about what you actually meant. Sometimes what's obvious for someone in paper form won't be for someone else, especially not at this late hour >.>

[FailureMidgard]

The last sentence is too close to "we can do any fight in the game with nothing but af1" (which I'm not arguing against).

My point isn't so much that we can do that, it's that for some reason people on BG like to say "merit parties don't matter, I want to gear for ___". I'm not saying you shouldn't try to do your best in HNM/etc, I'm saying that I think that DD gear has less of an impact there than it does in a merit party. I think it's stupid and naive to dismiss merit parties.

But really, you're sounding way too much like a guy I play with that thinks haste/refresh rotations are super complex and playing X mage job is way harder than the idiot melees that just stand there and die all the time.

Not at all, but if I happen to end up on Sam for Khimaira as a meditate, run in and WS, sit around type person, then I'm not going to care if I have haste, and I hardly even care if I have all my WS gear on me. If anything, I'd rather go in and WS with a full MDB set and do less damage and put less stress on support if I do happen to take an AoE.

Now, obviously, if they can't take the 4 hours it takes to get a weapon from 50 to 200+ these days when martial mastery is up, and carry around a 4k stack of sushi and at least an engetsu and an iron ram lance, they're clearly not going to be that kind of player.

Yes.

Einherjar T1:
Name Family
Bugard-X Bugards
Chigoe Chigoes
Craven Einherjar Ghosts
Dark Elemental Elementals
Djigga (Occasionally spawn from Hildesvini) Chigoes
Einherjar Eater Worms
Hazhalm Bat Giant Bats
Hazhalm Bats Bat Trios
Hyndla Hounds
Infected Wamoura Wamoura
Logi Bomb
Nickur Doomed
Rotting Huskarl (Warrior) Skeletons
Rotting Huskarl (Black Mage) Skeletons
Sjokrakjen Sea Monks

Bats and Giant bats are the only weak to piercing? 2/16 weak to piercing.

Einherjar T2

Battlemite Diremites
Corrupt Einherjar Tauri
Craven Einherjar Bhoot
Einherjar Brei Slimes
Einherjar Eater Worms
Flames of Muspelheim Clusters
Gardsvor Spiders
Hazhalm Bat Giant Bats
Hazhalm Bats Bat Trios
Hazhalm Leech Leeches
Odin's Fool Imps
Rotting Huskarl Draugar Dark Knights
Ormr Dragons
Sjokrakjen Sea Monks
Utgarth Bat Giant Bats
Utgarth Bats Bat Trios
Utgarth Leech Leeches
Waldgeist Hecteyes
Winebibber Clots

4 types of bats and imps, 5/19 weak to piercing.

Einherjar T3

Audhumbla Buffalo
Berserkr Demon
Corrupt Einherjar Tauri
Djigga Chigoes
Experimental Poroggo Poroggos
Flames of Muspelheim Clusters
Hafgygr Scorpion
Idun Bhoots
Infected Wamoura Wamoura
Liquified Einherjar Flan
Logi Bombs
Manticore-X Manticores
Margygr Ahriman
Marid-X Marid
Odin's Jester Imps
Soulflayer Soulflayers
Utgarth Bat Giant Bats
Utgarth Bats Bat Trios
Vanquished Einherjar Skeletons
Wivre-X Wivres

2 types of bats and Imps, 3/20.

Just putting that out there.

I guess it may be observer error on my part, but I don't think I've ever seen an Odin rotation where we didn't get bats. In any case, you're just arguing vs my number that I said was a guess, not the fact that polearm is USEFUL OUTSIDE OF MERITS.

Also Failure, using the logic that Limbus so easy that you have 30 minutes spare when you go with 4 people (and I bet none use Polearm on WAR) wouldn't that logic also say there's no point in using/gearing/carrying gear and food for Polearm?

Woah, don't get ahead of yourself. My argument has never once been that you shouldn't optimize yourself. My Limbus statement is 100% in response to you saying "I'd rather optimize for Limbus than a merit party". And I'm asking why? Yes, I am saying I would rather optimize for a merit party than limbus, but I still optimize myself everywhere. Maybe a DD will DC as we enter/etc, and I'll be stuck solo DDing a zone/etc. I definitely want to be optimal there too, I'm just saying that on average, it matters LESS in Limbus than it does in a merit party...why do people think merit parties don't matter but these joke easy events do? Because someone labeled it an event?

[Starr]

Note: In all the pile of words I just posted, all I want to see from you is the answer to one question: How much of a damage increase is Polearm in optimal gear, and show me the math for it (WS AND DoT DMG).

Um what? You are supposed to be the one proving to me that it is worth it, why don't you do the math? In all honesty though the math is never gonna stand up to real parses so if there are any equally geared Taru WARs on Phoenix that would like to parse against me with them using Polearm I am up for it.

Also mods need to get on you trying to get on my balls all the time and provoking me in threads that aren't relevant to you and that you haven't even posted in yet, you're clearly getting nowhere with tyring to call me out as wrong and it's hilarious you try and point out me calling people stupid when you do it yourself.

[Knyghtmayre]

At least with pchan, half the time I don't know what he's trying to say anyway.

[The Blackrose]

*revs the chainsaw*

Excuse me, I have some work to do...

[Starr]

At least with pchan, half the time I don't know what he's trying to say anyway.

Wanna be constructive and add anything to either side of the arguement?

[Knyghtmayre]

Wanna be constructive and add anything to either side of the arguement?

Because that's what you've been doing, right? <_< Constructive...

[The Blackrose]

Better yet, I'm just going to exercise the nuclear option. Way to fuck up your own necro Starr.