WAR and polearm

[Starr]

The full conclusion that Starr couldn't bother posting because he'd rather convince himself that mediocrity is acceptable:



If you don't have polearm merits because you're too lazy/stubborn to remove your sword or axe merits, don't bother. If you can't afford accuracy gear because you rely on Pizzas to do the work for you, don't bother. If you can afford great gear, then go for it.

Edit: also

Dude you seriously are dumb or a crack head, that says exactly the part I quoted just in a longer way, like he says it is not really worth it unless you have at least Polearm 8/8 or are asking a COR/BRD to give Accuracy buffs which if your other melee don't need them it's a waste. I have almost the absolute best Polearm gear in game for Warrior but I would still most the time use Great Axe on Greater Colibri.

[Knyghtmayre]

I really hope you didn't just call me a crack head and still expect to be taken seriously

[Starr]

You're smoking something. Read it all, again. You will fiddle around with tons of stuff to get Polearm to beat Great Axe, even more so without Polearm merits, everyone who doesn't use Polearm on Greater Colibri is now mediocre? ok

[Madvillain]

I honestly don't know why I posted in this topic. I hate bird camp.

1 RDM, 2 BRD, 1 COR, 1 WAR, 1 SAM, all items, Final Destin.....Mamool Ja Staging Point.

[Starr]

If your only 75 melee is or will ever be Warrior (or if SAM also I guess) your second merited weapon would be best of as Polearm after Great Axe Sath

[Yugl]

There is a different connotation in the lines posted.

The single line posted by Starr suggests that unless you have support, Polearm is not worth it.

The entire paragraph posted by Knight suggests that Polearm is worth it if you have merits and either support (Madrigal) or good equipment.

What's the difference? If I were looking to use Polearm on my WAR and saw the single line, it would lead me to believe I need to gimp my PT's total DMG through Madrigal in order to gain the benefit of using Polearm. The paragraph however, would lead me to believe I just need very good gear and merits. I think most of us can agree that the former would deter more WARs from using Polearm than the latter.

Edit: To answer Sath's question, it suggests that Polearm is better as your gear gets better.

[Knyghtmayre]

I honetsly don't kinow why I posted in this topic. I hate bird camp.

1 RDM, 2 BRD, 1 COR, 1 WAR, 1 SAM, all items, Final Destin.....Mamool Ja Staging Point.

That really is amazingly fun as long as the RDM can keep the melees alive.

http://i31.tinypic.com/rur6f8.png

[Starr]

Really though are you mediocre for doing 3% less damage (100,000 to 103,000 damage over about 2 hours) than someone using a Fortitude Axe because you don't gear/merit/build parties to one camp in the whole game? Fuck me, what are we coming to.

[Spider-Dan]

The single line posted by Starr suggests that unless you have support, Polearm is not worth it.

The entire paragraph posted by Knight suggests that Polearm is worth it if you have merits and either support (Madrigal) or good equipment.

What's the difference? If I were looking to use Polearm on my WAR and saw the single line, it would lead me to believe I need to gimp my PT's total DMG through Madrigal in order to gain the benefit of using Polearm. The paragraph however, would lead me to believe I just need very good gear and merits. I think most of us can agree that the former would deter more WARs from using Polearm than the latter.

"Support" doesn't necessarily mean madrigal, as the article acknowledges that sushi will cap your hitrate. And it would seem absurd on its face to infer that sushi+minuet/chaos is somehow inferior to madrigal/hunter's+mithkabobs (the meat cited).

Furthermore, I'd think that more WARs would be deterred by the prospect of mandatory PLM merits than mandatory second support job.

[Starr]

You would need madrigal to keep accuracy capped with perfect gear (no merits) or swap out Haste Gear to accuracy (which would diminish Polearm's results compared to Great Axe) even with Sushi, while Aggressor is down.

[Starr]

Honestly his math is good and all but stuff like this:

Average pDIF based on assumption of symmetry of pDIF distribution, which seems to hold for cRatio above 1.5. This assumption ignores behavior of pDIF at the extremes.

Meaning he used the same pDIF for Great Axe and Polearm? When Great Axe would allow you to use Meat and more Attack gear changing this entirely, just doesn't make everything fair. Use it like a Holy Bible if you want but I would rather see parses than math that assumes so many things it is not fair.

[Starr]

Also the math uses KJ as the WARs WS when I think both Yugl and Knyght come to agree that on Greater Colibri, RR was better. Etc, no offense to the guy but it's not perfect.

[Yugl]

"Support" doesn't necessarily mean madrigal, as the article acknowledges that sushi will cap your hitrate. And it would seem absurd on its face to infer that sushi+minuet/chaos is somehow inferior to madrigal/hunter's+mithkabobs (the meat cited).

Furthermore, I'd think that more WARs would be deterred by the prospect of mandatory PLM merits than mandatory second support job.

From a standalone prospective, someone suggesting that "Support" is necessary usually means that a BRD or COR is needed. My post was not to critic or evaluate the OP's suggestion; merely to give insight as to *why* posting the single line as opposed to the entire paragraph is misleading (Since someone suggested it isn't).

[Tsuko_Asura]

You would need madrigal to keep accuracy capped with perfect gear (no merits) or swap out Haste Gear to accuracy (which would diminish Polearm's results compared to Great Axe) even with Sushi, while Aggressor is down.

Engetsu, Pole Grip, Fire Bomblet, Walahra Turban, PCC, Brutal Earring, Assault Earring, Aurum Cuirass, Dusk Gloves, Sniper's Ring, Rajas Ring, Forager's mantle, Swift Belt, Byakko's Haidate, Aurum Sabatons, and Crab Sushi. None of that is even remotely difficult to attain(Aurum may take a few attempts, but by no means difficult, nor expensive. Truth be told, that equipment is pretty mediocre as per general BG standards. That's 92% Acc on higher birds, capped on lower, for an average hit-rate of ~94%, keep a six-hit, and dropping zero haste from a Gaxe build. The only actual sacrifice is having to use Crab Sushi, and the piercing bonus more than makes up for that. As far as the rest of your attack, Chaos Roll and Berserk will easily supplement your pDIF needs.

And if you happen to have an Adaberk, you can easily swap in a Rose Grip, White Tathlum, and Ec-whatever Ring for a new six-hit with higher accuracy.

[Starr]

Engetsu, Pole Grip, Fire Bomblet, Walahra Turban, PCC, Brutal Earring, Assault Earring, Aurum Cuirass, Dusk Gloves, Sniper's Ring, Rajas Ring, Forager's mantle, Swift Belt, Byakko's Haidate, Aurum Sabatons, and Crab Sushi. None of that is even remotely difficult to attain(Aurum may take a few attempts, but by no means difficult, nor expensive. Truth be told, that equipment is pretty mediocre as per general BG standards. That's 92% Acc on higher birds, capped on lower, for an average hit-rate of ~94%, keep a six-hit, and dropping zero haste from a Gaxe build. The only actual sacrifice is having to use Crab Sushi, and the piercing bonus more than makes up for that. As far as the rest of your attack, Chaos Roll and Berserk will easily supplement your pDIF needs.

And if you happen to have an Adaberk, you can easily swap in a Rose Grip, White Tathlum, and Ec-whatever Ring for a new six-hit with higher accuracy.

1. Love Torque is better than PCC, more Acc with Attack and DEX.
2. You lost Haste from Blitz Ring, Dusk+1/Unicorn/Unicorn+1 that you could use with capped Accuracy with Great Axe and Meat, you ARE talking ideals here so don't dismiss Unicorn+1.
3. That's 85% Accuracy on level 82: FFXIGEAR.com, ignoring Aggressor for a second, but keep in mind that ideal WAR group 1 merits are now considered 5 DA 5 Berserk with Great Axe so it would be 60% up.

Lots and lots of shit to consider.

[Tsuko_Asura]

1. Love Torque is better than PCC, more Acc with Attack and DEX.
2. You lost Haste from Blitz Ring, Dusk+1/Unicorn/Unicorn+1 that you could use with capped Accuracy with Great Axe and Meat, you ARE talking ideals here so don't dismiss Unicorn+1.
3. That's 85% Accuracy on level 82: FFXIGEAR.com, ignoring Aggressor for a second, but keep in mind that ideal WAR group 1 merits are now considered 5 DA 5 Berserk with Great Axe so it would be 60% up.
Lots and lots of shit to consider.

1 and 2: I was specifically not using ideals to contradict the fact that people seem to think you need perfect equipment. With mediocre shit like I posted and some merit, you're barely uncapped, ignoring Aggressor. Love Torque(Ancient Torque would be better than both, if you want to get 'ideal') and Dusk Ledelsens +1 aren't available to a lot of people, and Unicorn just isn't plausible for any aggressive player. Regardless, dropping Aurum Sabatons isn't a massive hit to your accuracy(and completely irrelevant if you're able to full-time Hasso, albeit, I realize that's not every party), but I did forget about Blitz Ring.

All of that said, 1% haste and meat aren't enough to justify not using a piercing weapon.

[Cylo]

Starr is way to emo about this crap. Settle down little fella, stop trying to run things and let the others speak.

[Starr]

All of that said, 1% haste and meat aren't enough to justify not using a piercing weapon.

I think 2% is fairer, Dusk+1 are 3M at most and shouldn't be considered leet. Using the most relevant and extensive math ever done on the topic which I believe did not do Great Axe justice (using KJ>RR on Greater Colibri for one) and other things that make it far from ideal, that showed at best it doing 3% more than a Fort Axe I think it's not even worth it based on that and my short comparison I did personally. No, I am not saying do not use Polearm on Greater Colibri and Great Axe is better, I am saying the increase (until proven with actual fair parses which I know are never going to be presented and am unable to do myself due to closed accounts) is not really worth the effort. If you slap on a Polearm instead of your Great Axe without changing gear/merits/food/buffs etc etc it isn't going to out do Great Axe and if you do change all these things, make new macro sets etc etc then it will outdo it slightly. I think Polearm should be used more for Salvage and Nyzul Isle where things really are piss weak.

Starr is way to emo about this crap. Settle down little fella, stop trying to run things and let the others speak.

Who am I not allowing to speak? I am trying to logically debate with people fairly and Tsuko is the first to do that. I also like to be proved wrong, just not "u are wrong".

[Madvillain]

1 and 2: I was specifically not using ideals to contradict the fact that people seem to think you need perfect equipment. With mediocre shit like I posted and some merit, you're barely uncapped, ignoring Aggressor. Love Torque(Ancient Torque would be better than both, if you want to get 'ideal') and Dusk Ledelsens +1 aren't available to a lot of people, and Unicorn just isn't plausible for any aggressive player. Regardless, dropping Aurum Sabatons isn't a massive hit to your accuracy(and completely irrelevant if you're able to full-time Hasso, albeit, I realize that's not every party), but I did forget about Blitz Ring.

All of that said, 1% haste and meat aren't enough to justify not using a piercing weapon.

All of that said, spending time to merit polearm 8/8, building a particular gear set that includes Love Torque for optimal returns all in the name of e-peen on birds isn't enough to justify keeping those merits open for another job and in return, still getting great exp using a GAxe.

Seriously, this is becoming like a fucking Allah thread. No one gives a shit how fucking awesome you are at colibri camp.

[Knyghtmayre]

No one gives a shit how fucking awesome you are at colibri camp.

Let's just apply that mindset to the entire game? Meritting is just as much a part of this fucking game as doing anything else... you may as well be good at it.