Obama to decide today on torture memos

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Thanks to Obama's national intelligence director we know they weren't minuscule gains. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us...2blair.html?hp

I will just never believe we should put the comfort of terrorists before the lives of Americans, especially when if the situation were reversed they would do much worse to us.

[Shiroikage]

It's pretty hard to take anything you say serious with your avatar and sig.

Best be trollin'.

[Rhinox]

Swampy did you read the whole article or just the first few lines?

A spokeswoman for Admiral Blair said the lines were cut in the normal editing process of shortening an internal memo into a media statement emphasizing his concern that the public understand the context of the decisions made in the past and the fact that they followed legal orders.

“The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,” Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. “The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

I have 1000 posts just like last few, if I was trolling I'm sure I'd be gone by now.

Edit: It sounds to me like those lines weren't meant to get out and he was covering his ass to stay in sync.

[Kuya]

I get the feeling that the people who use the effectiveness of torture argument are just using it to divert argument away from investigation to a arduous debate over the rights and wrongs of torture. Nevermind the fact that they insist, against all the evidence that has stacked up, the AZ case, the suggestions from the Army, Navy, and Marines, and th legal advice from the lawyers. Their argument insist that torture is okay because it may have worked, something which is illegal, and yet, they don't even consider that after the CIA started torturing, the FBI left and effectively the use of rapport-building stopped, making it so the information that could have been gained by the FBI's more effective technique disappear, and leaving only the ineffective and illegal torture techniques that weren't even necessary as, once again, evidenced by the AZ case.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

I'm not against rapport building, it worked great for the Germans, but for some reason I doubt it would work on the higher ups in Al Qaeda.

[Kuya]

I'm not against rapport building, it worked great for the Germans, but for some reason I doubt it would work on the higher ups in Al Qaeda.

You doubt, and you know what helps with doubt? Evidence. But how do we get that when the FBI (experts at rapport building) leave because they want nothing to do with the CIA's torture? You already saw the Abu Zhubaida case, right? The situation is pretty clear cut, and we need more investigations.

[Kazen]

I have 1000 posts just like last few, if I was trolling I'm sure I'd be gone by now.

Kuya

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 6,953



He trolls sometimes (But at least its usually funny) and he's a mod.

[Vekta]

I dont know how anyone can draw any conclusions without 100% disclosure, which will probably never happen. What we do know is there wont be a middle ground a administration will always be judged as doing too much or too little by those who know nothing.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

You doubt, and you know what helps with doubt? Evidence. But how do we get that when the FBI (experts at rapport building) leave because they want nothing to do with the CIA's torture? You already saw the Abu Zhubaida case, right? The situation is pretty clear cut, and we need more investigations.

I find it hard to believe that rapport building was never tried in Guantanomo.

[Kuya]

I find it hard to believe that rapport building was never tried in Guantanomo.

You know what would help? An investigation.

[Skjie]

B- Torture is illegal.

At the end of the day, this is all that matters. Any country where a group of people are beyond rule of law no longer has any right to discuss anything internationally.

[Vekta]

At the end of the day, this is all that matters. Any country where a group of people are beyond rule of law no longer has any right to discuss anything internationally.

So you just ruled out most of the world ever talking again

[Skjie]

So you just ruled out most of the world ever talking again

Please qualify that statement. If you want to talk about China/Russia, don't bother. Go look up Brian Mulroney if you want to talk about Canada. Otherwise, authorizing torture is a pretty big fucking thing to sweep under the carpet to save his political career.

[Vekta]

Please qualify that statement. If you want to talk about China/Russia, don't bother. Go look up Brian Mulroney if you want to talk about Canada. Otherwise, authorizing torture is a pretty big fucking thing to sweep under the carpet to save his political career.

Every nation in this world has at some point knowingly authorized operations outside of the law. Everything from Torture to Kidnapping and Assassination. To think they haven't is to be very ignorant, each nation will only do what it deems necessary for itself. Im not condoning torture, but to say nations shouldnt be allowed to discuss world politics because of their illegal activities is to rule out a huge number of countries.

[quannum]

So you just ruled out most of the world ever talking again

Have you not been paying attention? Torture doesn't work.

Even the israelis stopped using it on their own accord, for this very reason.

[Skjie]

Every nation in this world has at some point knowingly authorized operations outside of the law. Everything from Torture to Kidnapping and Assassination. To think they haven't is to be very ignorant, each nation will only do what it deems necessary for itself. Im not condoning torture, but to say nations shouldnt be allowed to discuss world politics because of their illegal activities is to rule out a huge number of countries.

I'll agree with your first point, but I disagree with your conclusion because countries who commit illegal acts deal with their acts eventually. Saying it should all be buried because the institution won't allow it to be investigated properly is stunning.

I don't want to Godwin this thread, but fucking Nazis.

[Vekta]

Have you not been paying attention? Torture doesn't work.

Even the israelis stopped using it on their own accord, for this very reason.

Did i mention torture? no they made a point about nations who break the law shouldnt be allowed to the world table. I could care less if torture works or not, point being if you want to uphold one law you should uphold them all, now ask yourself what laws have you broke recently?

[Vekta]

I'll agree with your first point, but I disagree with your conclusion because countries who commit illegal acts deal with their acts eventually. Saying it should all be buried because the institution won't allow it to be investigated properly is stunning.

I don't want to Godwin this thread, but fucking Nazis.

Everyone has to face up to their actions someday be it in a court of law or having to live with the guilt for the rest of their lives.

[Rhinox]

It's ok guys. All the cool kids do it so torture is A-OK.

For all the National pride and over the top nauseating patriotism that the right showed during the last 8 years you would think they would be beside themselves with anger and disgust that their beloved country has gotten such a horrible black eye.