Obama to decide today on torture memos

[Mizango]

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/attac...1&d=1239910011

HAHA I stand corrected.

[Olo401]

o.O I do think the "insurgents" are looking for open dialogue and transparency in their enemy.
They aren't pissed at the fact we are hiding our torture, they are pissed we torture. You can't approach this to how a country full of Olo401's would react to these documents being released, you have to think how a country full of pissed off arabs with bombs will react

In case you missed it, there were people who wanted to blow us up long before they found out about our government's actions weren't going to change their mind and stop would we not have done it. They had plenty of other justifications that were pefectly acceptable. I don't expect them to simply turn around and say 'oh shit the Americans said they fucked up! Let's invite 'em out for beers!'

Also, why would you think I was referring exclusively to Arabs or "insurgents"? You don't think the English or the French or the Germans would say 'Okay you assholes it's about time you fessed up. Let's get shit done now like old times.'

I'm absolutely amazed at your remarkable shortsightedness.

[Xavier]

I heard they were planning to release four black pages.

Anyone who complains is going to get tortured.

[Demosthenes11]

In case you missed it, there were people who wanted to blow us up long before they found out about our government's actions weren't going to change their mind and stop would we not have done it. They had plenty of other justifications that were pefectly acceptable. I don't expect them to simply turn around and say 'oh shit the Americans said they fucked up! Let's invite 'em out for beers!'

Also, why would you think I was referring exclusively to Arabs or "insurgents"? You don't think the English or the French or the Germans would say 'Okay you assholes it's about time you fessed up. Let's get shit done now like old times.'

I'm absolutely amazed at your remarkable shortsightedness.

it doesn't change the fact that it will make them more pissed off, which potentially costs american lives. its not about being short sighted, its looking at the present and saying "what is the bad compared to the good here." It's very well documented how long they have hates us, but giving them just another, more detailed reason with no benefit for us is just stupid. I don't see how it would garner any more respect for us anyways

[Deftscythe]

According to CNN and BBC the memos have been released.

BBC NEWS | Americas | Obama publishes 'torture' memos

But no one is going to be prosecuted.

[Kael]

it doesn't change the fact that it will make them more pissed off, which potentially costs american lives. its not about being short sighted, its looking at the present and saying "what is the bad compared to the good here." It's very well documented how long they have hates us, but giving them just another, more detailed reason with no benefit for us is just stupid. I don't see how it would garner any more respect for us anyways

This will probably be Fox News' spin on it.

[Xavier]

The fact of the matter is that "they" are already aware that "torture" occurred, whether or not the documents are released. The decision to be made is whether it is better to bury the truth and more forward, or release the truth, apologize, and move forward.

President Obama seems to be seeking reconciliation with the rest of the world, so my guess is that he wants to do as much as possible to separate his administration from the previous. I suspect foreigners will be far more willing to work with Obama if he throws the previous administration under the bus, regardless of their individual involvement with what occurred.

Owning up to mistakes, if you acknowledge them to be mistakes, is generally a better policy for moving forwards than suppressing the truth.

[Demosthenes11]

The fact of the matter is that "they" are already aware that "torture" occurred, whether or not the documents are released. The decision to be made is whether it is better to bury the truth and more forward, or release the truth, apologize, and move forward.

President Obama seems to be seeking reconciliation with the rest of the world, so my guess is that he wants to do as much as possible to separate his administration from the previous. I suspect foreigners will be far more willing to work with Obama if he throws the previous administration under the bus, regardless of their individual involvement with what occurred.

Owning up to mistakes, if you acknowledge them to be mistakes, is generally a better policy for moving forwards than suppressing the truth.

lol i think closing gitmo and saying "fucking bush and his torturing bullshit" was more than enough to distance himself. As I said before, being told your brother was tortured and then getting to read the details of that torture are 2 REALLY different things. If I were Obama, I would say I'd release them in a few years once it does not pose a threat to american soldiers in harms way. I'd love to see this stuff released and bush put in prison, but now is not the right time imo

[Bingbong]

It contained legal authorisation for a list of specific harsh interrogation techniques, including pushing detainees against a wall, facial slaps, cramped confinement, stress positions and sleep deprivation.

http://www.intentionalfoul.com/images/southparkslap.jpg

Someone call someone... they were mean to people during interrogation!

[Xavier]

Gitmo isn't closed at the moment.

Announcing the United States does not engage in torture "now" is not the same as making amends for what has already occurred.

Moreover, I completely disagree with your assessment that knowledge of a family member being tortured, and the details of a family member's torture, are going to elicit a different response. If you tell me you tortured my family, I am going to assume you fucking tortured them, and if I am of the personality type to seek vengeance, then I am going to seek vengeance. There is no form of humane torture.

Whether or not you beat them senseless with your fists, a lead pole, or a wet bag, my response will be to fucking kill you.

If someone is going to "become a terrorist" over a family member being tortured, believe me, they've already made that commitment.

And, moreover, for those who have actually been tortured and been allowed to return to their families, its a safe bet their families are already aware of the details.

[Demosthenes11]

just a matter of disagreement then...

[Rhinox]

Good: Torture memo's being released
Bad: Eric Holder basically saying those responsible are getting a get out of jail free card.
Ugly: Spain isn't going to pursue going after Alberto Gonzales.


One step foward, Two steps back.

[Xavier]

just a matter of disagreement then...

I'm not saying that I don't understand your point of view on it, just that, yeah, I disagree with it.

However, I do agree that if the details are truly horrific, then some people who have been able to control themselves may lose it. But I can't imagine the memo having authorized anything bone chillingly disturbing.

I think water boarding, etc, is torture, but its not the kind of thing that would push me over the edge. They'd have to be doing some seriously fucked up shit, in my opinion, for your fear to really be justified.

Good: Torture memo's being released
Bad: Eric Holder basically saying those responsible are getting a get out of jail free card.
Ugly: Spain isn't going to pursue going after Alberto Gonzales.


One step foward, Two steps back.

What I heard was that President Obama has ruled out prosecution of CIA officers who actually used these techniques. Realistically, I think the only people they should go after are the ones who authorized the techniques. The CIA officers were, technically, given permission, presumably believed to be legal, to use the techniques. It would be a mistake to retroactively punish because you've rescinded an opinion after the fact.

But the initial opinion was ludicrous and whoever authorized it should definitely be charged.

[SephYuyX]

Whats wrong with torture?
It works for Jack Bauer.

[Demosthenes11]

I'm not saying that I don't understand your point of view on it, just that, yeah, I disagree with it.

However, I do agree that if the details are truly horrific, then some people who have been able to control themselves may lose it. But I can't imagine the memo having authorized anything bone chillingly disturbing.

I think water boarding, etc, is torture, but its not the kind of thing that would push me over the edge. They'd have to be doing some seriously fucked up shit, in my opinion, for your fear to really be justified.

with dick cheney involved....nah, I see where you are coming from too. I kinda figured these were documents which said exactly what happened and when and by whom and to what extent, not just the orders to carry out certain things. The latter I have 0 problem with releasing.

[Xavier]

Whats wrong with torture?
It works for Jack Bauer.

If you watch 24, you'll notice that it -only- works for Jack Bauer. Everyone else ends up getting killed in the process.

with dick cheney involved....

Well played. Who knows what kind of atrocities have been committed.

[Kuya]

Obama's statement:

The Department of Justice will today release certain memos issued by the Office of Legal Counsel between 2002 and 2005 as part of an ongoing court case. These memos speak to techniques that were used in the interrogation of terrorism suspects during that period, and their release is required by the rule of law. . . .

While I believe strongly in transparency and accountability, I also believe that in a dangerous world, the United States must sometimes carry out intelligence operations and protect information that is classified for purposes of national security. I have already fought for that principle in court and will do so again in the future. However, after consulting with the Attorney General, the Director of National Intelligence, and others, I believe that exceptional circumstances surround these memos and require their release.
First, the interrogation techniques described in these memos have already been widely reported. Second, the previous Administration publicly acknowledged portions of the program – and some of the practices – associated with these memos. Third, I have already ended the techniques described in the memos through an Executive Order. Therefore, withholding these memos would only serve to deny facts that have been in the public domain for some time. This could contribute to an inaccurate accounting of the past, and fuel erroneous and inflammatory assumptions about actions taken by the United States.

In releasing these memos, it is our intention to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution. The men and women of our intelligence community serve courageously on the front lines of a dangerous world. Their accomplishments are unsung and their names unknown, but because of their sacrifices, every single American is safer. We must protect their identities as vigilantly as they protect our security, and we must provide them with the confidence that they can do their jobs.

This is a time for reflection, not retribution. I respect the strong views and emotions that these issues evoke. We have been through a dark and painful chapter in our history. But at a time of great challenges and disturbing disunity, nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past. Our national greatness is embedded in America’s ability to right its course in concert with our core values, and to move forward with confidence. That is why we must resist the forces that divide us, and instead come together on behalf of our common future.

The United States is a nation of laws. My Administration will always act in accordance with those laws, and with an unshakeable commitment to our ideals. That is why we have released these memos, and that is why we have taken steps to ensure that the actions described within them never take place again.

I think he is deserving of praise in this instance; he did the right thing.

[Kuya]

Glenn Greenwald's opinion:

In a just-released statement, Barack Obama announced that -- in response to an ACLU FOIA lawsuit -- he has ordered four key Bush-era torture memos released, and the Associated Press, citing anonymous Obama sources, is reporting that "there is very little redaction, or blacking out, of detail in the memos." Marc Ambinder is reporting that only the names of the CIA agents involved will be redacted; everything else will be disclosed. Simultaneously, and certainly with the intend to placate angry intelligence officials, Attorney General Eric Holder has "informed CIA officials [though not necessarily Bush officials] who used waterboarding and other harsh interrogation tactics on terror suspects that they will not be prosecuted," and Obama announced the same thing in his statement.

I will add more detailed commentary, along with an interview with the ACLU's lead counsel, Jameel Jaffer, as soon as the documents themselves are available. If the report about the OLC memos are accurate, Obama will have done exactly the right thing here and will deserve real credit.

I'm going to go check if any sites has looked into the memos.

[Demosthenes11]

gj obama, exactly the response I wanted if they were to be released.

But seriously, fuck bush and arrest the SOB

[ferigor]

Glenn Greenwald's opinion:

I'm going to go check if any sites has looked into the memos.

Bush-era interrogation memo: No torture without 'severe pain' intent - CNN.com

I'm sure you've seen this article by now, but it has links to the memos. I haven't had a chance to read them yet.