The Ulduar thread!

[Arvin]

vezax is cake compared to mimiron honestly, but vezax isn't easy either.

[Gulkeeva]

Woulda probably got kologran on 25man in my guild cept we got the nice bug where he just permanently despawns...! woo

[FailureMidgard]

I'm hearing that Vezax is a lot harder on 10-man because the damage is basically the same.

Not really hearing anyone having horrible problems on him on 25man right now

Umm, nowhere near, he hits me for ~30k in 25man. He hits me for ~17k in 10man.

[Dezzimal]

few additions on yogg

Spoiler: show

The ideal phase 2 has 1 crusher tentacle per stun phase, melee that go in the portals need to tear shit up and get to the brain asap. Getting to the brain with 40 seconds left on yogg's madness cast should be your goal, and you want to get him down to 30% during the third stun phase. If you do get to the brain with 40 seconds on the clock you will stop the extra crusher from spawning and have plenty of time to clean up corrupters, if not you can recover from it with bloodlust. As soon as the brain hits 30% everything outside gets unstunned so if you're "early" you can stop DPS at 32% or something until you have 10 seconds left on the timer, this helps the people outside majorly.

How you finish each phase on yogg has a huge effect on how difficult the next phase is. Go in to p2 with more than two guardians up? You're going to have a rough time. Go in to p3 with a crusher up? Really hard time catching up with p4.

[Korietsu]

XT we played with a little, so much going on I don't think people are staying on the boss long enough. Seems like a pretty high DPS requirement for a 10man. If you have just 10man gear, Ulduar seems too hard. Thank god most of us pugged 25's and have mostly bis so this week we should do much better with our main group. Feels like this instance is going to get a big nerfstick all around, like one of those reduce all bosses health by x% nerfs.

my pug group did XT while he had 6M hp in 10's, we beat the enrage by 10 seconds. Few people were in 25's gear as DPS. I don't think that his DPS requirements are too steep, neither the damage on the tanks either.

[FailureMidgard]

Woulda probably got kologran on 25man in my guild cept we got the nice bug where he just permanently despawns...! woo

That encounter was tested on PTR - thus, it is quite buggy. I still haven't seen a single bug on Yogg yet, and it wasn't on PTR.

[Gulkeeva]

That encounter was tested on PTR - thus, it is quite buggy. I still haven't seen a single bug on Yogg yet, and it wasn't on PTR.

Yeah, that and his "insta-gib hand crush at random" is bad too.. in 10man he'd sometimes at random 80,000-100,000 crush a person (although its hilarious seeing a pile of bodies on the wall dead)

oh and...

*The Auriaya encounter has received the following changes: Sanctum Sentries should no longer spawn while Auriaya is in combat and lowered the damage of Savage Pounce.

Hell yeah, that shit made the fight hard. Thank god they fixed it after i put in a ticket for that, annoying as hell and at times almost caused a wipe. THey'd come out at random and insta-ounce kill a healer or something usualy because they came out at random.

[Skyylya]

So far in my paladins guild we've downed FL, razorscale, XT, iron council, freya, auriaya, hodir and kologarn all on heroic. i haven't gone into the 10 man one yet.

None of the fights are terribly 'difficult' it just takes learning the strats, getting the pulls right, killing the right mob at the right time etc...

But 8/14 in week 1 we were pretty happy with, I think as far as morning raiding guilds go we're #1 in the US as far as 25 man progression goes.

XT is pretty easy, when the heart drops, just dps it the hell down but of course don't kill it and when he pops back up he's almost right before the next hp break to drop the heart again, if you have the dps to do it well enough you'll skip his tympanic tantrum altogether and just go from one heart phase to the next, if you do it right you can down him in like 2-3 minutes.

[Skyylya]

Finally on to the watchers, we tried freya at first, we're having issues getting the small lashers down, the random aggro is a pain in the ass. any ways to deal with this?

When the small lashers pop out, have everyone group up in one spot and aoe down, when they get between 20-40% spread out and it's just a few shots to kill them after that. If you're doing what you need to avoid them healing it shouldn't be a problem to take them out.

[Guitarman]

Patch time. Whole lotta buffs to Ulduar. Talk about taking two steps back.

• The Saronite Animus in the heroic General Vezax encounter has had its health increased.
• The Mimiron hard mode has received the following changes: increased damage from Flames, increased damage from Frost Bomb (in heroic), increased damage from Water Spray, and increased the health bonus he receives from Emergency Mode.
• The damage bonus of the Frozen Power talent should no longer affect boss creatures.
• The buff players receive from Tenacity in Wintergrasp is now stronger.
• Stoneclaw Totem should no longer put a shield on hostile targets.
• The damage from a Clockwork Sapper’s Energy Sap ability has been decreased.
• General Vezax’s abilities, Mark of the Faceless and Shadow Crash, may hit players in melee range depending on the situation and player setup.
• Players should no longer be able to quench the Unquenchable Flames debuff from a Molten Colossus by using spells like Cloak of Shadows or Divine Protection. The Molten damage from when Iron Constructs turn molten has been reduced, the ground damage from Scorch has been reduced, and the total health of Ignis himself has been reduced.
• For Ignis the Furnace master, Strength of the Creator will now only affect physical damage and he will have to wait for a short time to charge after casting Flame Jets.
• Katherine Lee should no longer be attackable in Dalaran, meanies.
• Shattering Throw will no longer consume an extra 25 rage.
• The heirloom item, Discerning Eye of the Beast, will now return mana at any level.
• The item Gauntlets of the Wretched can now be sold or disenchanted.
• All of the additional creatures spawned during the XT-002 Deconstructor encounter can now be snared in either difficulty.
• It will be slightly more difficult to skip Tympanic Tantrum on XT-002 Deconstructor.
• For the Hodir encounter, the damage from Champion of Hodir’s Freezing Breath has been reduced, the haste effect from Starlight has been decreased, and the timer for the hard mode has been decreased.
• For the Thorim encounter, the Runic Colossus should stop channeling Runic Smash once engaged in combat, the Dark Rune Champion should no longer whirlwind after being disarmed, and the Runic Colossus should no longer melee when it charges.
• Glyph of Polymorph will no longer limit the number of recipes learned through Northrend Inscription Research.
• The Iron Council encounter has received the following changes: the amount healed through Electric Charge has been increased, the timer to Berserk has been increased, the range of Overload has been decreased, the Lightning Elementals are no longer immune to nature damage, Stormcaller Brundir's melee damage has been decreased (in normal mode), and increased Runemaster Molgeim's damage.
• The Kologarn encounter has received the following changes: the speed of the Eyebeam has been decreased, the amount of damaged required to break a player from Stone Grip has been decreased, and slightly decreased the amount of damage done by Stone Grip.
• Some changes we have made to the trash mobs in the Antechamber (the area near Iron Council) are: the Devastating Leap from the Chamber Overseer is now a Stun Mechanic, Champer Overseers should no longer be immune to disarm, standing on the Flaming Rune should no longer proc Runic Explosion, Iron Menders should be immune to charm, Charged Dwarves should be immune to charm, the damage from Ball Lightning cast by Lightning Charged Iron Dwarves has been decreased in heroic difficulty, and the damage of Runed Flame Jets have been decreased.
• The Auriaya encounter has received the following changes: Sanctum Sentries should no longer spawn while Auriaya is in combat and lowered the damage of Savage Pounce.
• Sniper Training should no longer remove players from stealth.
• Death Strike will now heal the Death Knight for 5% of his or her maximum health per disease on the target, up to a maximum of 15%.
• Focus Magic and Hunger for Blood should no longer last through a talent switch.
• Vanish should now properly remove the effects of the Mage spell Slow.
• The Mimiron encounter has received the following changes: the damage of Proximity Mines has been decreased, Proximity Mines should no longer explode and damage players after they explode and disappear, the initial cooldown of Shock Blast in phase 4 has been altered so it shouldn't be cast the same time as Laser Barrage in this phase, the casting time of Self Repair has been increased, and the health and damage of Assault Bots has been decreased in heroic mode.
• Emalon should no longer use any of his special abilities for a short time after casting Overcharge.
• The time between Mole Machines spawning in the Razorscale encounter has been slightly increased.

DK death strike nerf in PvE: lame. Bastards trying to destroy my survivability.

[Skyylya]

yeah no kidding, I'm going to be like naked for the first few pulls knowing were going to fail hard...

Really didn't expect the fucking cats to insta-gib... basically a 40K bear tank in 10man thats ridiculous imo it was like...
10K X2 with 5K bleed... + 5K melee hits X2... I think he shat a brick he lived like 1-2 seconds

We did the pally bubble method, seemed to workout well, although its probably a bit risky...
I think a MD trap -> let mobs come around corner is a much safer method ;/ But hey.. whatever works! Amirite

We used a rogue distract method, when auriaya stopped on one of the sides we had a rogue do a distract to stop her and 2 of the adds, and let the other 2 sentries walk away a little but, then tank grabbed auriaya and 2 of the tanks grabbed the first 2, then we grabbed the other 2 when they ran in, worked pretty well not having all 4 of them together, cause only 2 of them don't do enough dmg to insta-kill a tank

[Russta]

The place in general was nerfed slightly while the hard modes were made harder. All it did was widen the gap between the two, adding longevity and challenge to the zone while making it more accessible.

(the post I didn't want to quote because it was basically a copypasta of the change notes had disappeared but it was basically whining that Ulduar was being made harder)

[Boyiee]

I'm happy they made hard modes harder, people want progression and bragging rights like old wow - well some of these changes to ulduar hardmodes are really significant. Adding 50% health per tower to FL, changing some damage from 10k to 15k...

And I was saying that 10man seemed overtuned, looks like they changed some things in that sense at least. People in 10man gear could not be expecting to go through some of the bosses in ulduar without at least having some 25man items. Now it might be different.

[FailureMidgard]

I'm happy they made hard modes harder, people want progression and bragging rights like old wow - well some of these changes to ulduar hardmodes are really significant. Adding 50% health per tower to FL, changing some damage from 10k to 15k...

And I was saying that 10man seemed overtuned, looks like they changed some things in that sense at least. People in 10man gear could not be expecting to go through some of the bosses in ulduar without at least having some 25man items. Now it might be different.

I'm happy they are making hardmodes harder, but I think just pushing timers and upping hit points isn't really something that is good. The solution is just to sit your healers and burn. That being said, the new Hodir timer, if you assume 1 tank and 2 healers in 25man requires 12k DPS per player in the raid. Requiring a guild to 2 healer a fight is definitely a good way to add challenge /sarcasm. At least with dualspec we don't necessarily have to recruit to reasonably manage 22 DPS in a raid.

On the other hand, I like hardmodes where the fight changes/etc. I like when the fight just becomes crazy/etc (General, XT, FL, etc). Requiring some more DPS is okay too, but these changes to Hodir are just flat out stupid.

[Noobta]

That's official, you can only fight Algalon one hour per week!

This is going to take a while

[Maguspk]

So what'd they actually do to Hodir, I doubt they require your raid to put out 12k dps, that's just unrealistic.

[aurik]

What's the new timer for hodir 10/25? It used to be 3 minutes...the math looked like this:

HP:
Normal -- 8,115,990 = 45088 raid DPS
At 7 dps, 1 tank (at 33% output of a dps), and 2 heals, that's 6151 dps benchmark (2050 dps for the tank)


Heroic-- 32,477,904 = 180432 raid DPS
At 20 dps, 1 tank (at 33% output of a dps) and 4 heals, thats 8875 dps benchmark (2958 dps for the tank)
At 21 dps, 8459
At 22 dps, 8080


Also I totally agree with you that simply cranking up the dps check for hard modes is a dumb way to implement additional tiers of difficulty.

Sarth was a cool difficulty mechanic because adding drakes fundamentally changed how you fought the encounter with positioning, group composition, etc, as well as making it more difficult because of the natural timer that drake landings added, more damage taken, more damage to deal, etc.

A cooler way to make Hodir hard mode instead of just ramping up already obscene dps requirements would be to make low hp trigger additional abilities if his rare cache hasn't been shattered yet...like, he only drops 1 icicle per freeze if you drop him below 50% in under 1.5 minutes, and gains a frost nova ability if you take him below 33% before 2 minutes, etc. And that's just one idea. I'm sure there's lots of cool things that aren't just "outgear the encounter more"...how about a mechanic that makes you employ a suicide order to extend the length of time the cache is available?

Also, 1 hour of attempts per week on Algalon is fucking retarded.

[Ishido]

We had a DK put a DnD down at the end of Auraiya's pat and everyone stay out of LoS, druid picks up Auraiya and starts swiping to get the 2nd cat, DK tank takes the first add to be focused down.

Also I disagree with most of 10 man being overtuned after going through more bosses. We've beaten encounters with disconnects, stupid deaths early, and other poor play. Granted we have yet to see what many seem to consider the harder bosses, like Mimiron, Vezax, and YS, but from what I have seen it is definitely doable by a 10 man geared group.

[FailureMidgard]

So what'd they actually do to Hodir, I doubt they require your raid to put out 12k dps, that's just unrealistic.

They lowered the timer to 2min, they also nerfed the haste buff from moonbeams.

What's the new timer for hodir 10/25? It used to be 3 minutes...the math looked like this:

HP:
Normal -- 8,115,990 = 45088 raid DPS
At 7 dps, 1 tank (at 33% output of a dps), and 2 heals, that's 6151 dps benchmark (2050 dps for the tank)


Heroic-- 32,477,904 = 180432 raid DPS
At 20 dps, 1 tank (at 33% output of a dps) and 4 heals, thats 8875 dps benchmark (2958 dps for the tank)
At 21 dps, 8459
At 22 dps, 8080


Also I totally agree with you that simply cranking up the dps check for hard modes is a dumb way to implement additional tiers of difficulty.

Sarth was a cool difficulty mechanic because adding drakes fundamentally changed how you fought the encounter with positioning, group composition, etc, as well as making it more difficult because of the natural timer that drake landings added, more damage taken, more damage to deal, etc.

A cooler way to make Hodir hard mode instead of just ramping up already obscene dps requirements would be to make low hp trigger additional abilities if his rare cache hasn't been shattered yet...like, he only drops 1 icicle per freeze if you drop him below 50% in under 1.5 minutes, and gains a frost nova ability if you take him below 33% before 2 minutes, etc. And that's just one idea. I'm sure there's lots of cool things that aren't just "outgear the encounter more"...how about a mechanic that makes you employ a suicide order to extend the length of time the cache is available?

Also, 1 hour of attempts per week on Algalon is fucking retarded.

Timer was only 3min in an early PTR build. It was 2:45 when they had the "please test Hodir hardmode" on PTR. It was 2:30 on live (and beaten by Inner Sanctum @ 2:30). It's now 2 minutes.

So, with new Hodir timer at 2 minutes. He has 32.48mil HP.
12k DPS x 120 sec = 1.44mil HP
1.44mil HP x 22 players = 31.68mil HP
That leaves 32.48 - 31.68 = .8mil HP or .8mil/120 = 6666 DPS to be covered by NPCs + tank.

Anyway, all your math is PTR only Aurik, I'm 99.9% sure that it was 2:30 when it went onto live servers.

So yea, 22 DPSers @ 12k DPS per average (realize you still have to break NPCs out to get their buffs so you can even come close to 12k DPS, and the buffs don't even come up instantly...you're looking at 15-20 seconds before you even get buffs from the NPCs) is still short for the timer. And your 2 healers need to keep the entire raid + tank up through Frozen Blows (and not to mention stacking like this is beyond stupid). Which is doable, but meh.

In any case, while the DPS requirement is absurd now, the ideology behind it is the bigger problem. Fights should get more chaotic/interesting/intense in hardmode. Not just require some stupid DPS number. Aurik and I agree on that, at the very least.

As for Algalon...idk what to think about the 1hr time, I think it's a cop-out by Blizzard to artificially extend the life of Ulduar, I don't really have any opinions one way or the other as to if I like it or not...there's advantages and disadvantages both ways. I like the idea of a limit, I'm not sure how reasonable 1hr is (and I'd rather it be based on # of pulls than pure time, personally).

[Dezzimal]

Also, 1 hour of attempts per week on Algalon is fucking retarded.

I think its kinda cool, it makes it so that only the truly skilled players will ever see him die.