The gap between good players and bad players

[BRP]

Now just about all MMORPGs are full of superficial challenges and superficial gaps between players. So let us be perfectly clear what exactly I mean when I bring up this gap. I do not mean gear. For the purpose of this thread someone with the best set of armor in the game is no better than someone running around in garbage. We speak of "skill." It also means things like grinding on weak monsters(or easy tasks) hold no value because of their utter ease. Another example of a superficial gap would be difficulty in input(poor controls.)

So the question is how wide is FFXI's gap between a good player and a bad player. This is quite a question so I think it will also be necessary for us to explain what skill in FFXI looks like and examples where skill triumphs over a lack of skill. There is also the matter of challenges: where and under what conditions is FFXI actually difficult?

Despite my little disclaimer at the top I am willing to accept any sort of challenge as a facet of skill in FFXI. The obvious go-to topic would be the battle system, but various things like sneaking around and manipulating the AH are also fair game if you are able to make a comprehensible argument for it. Anything goes as long as it makes sense. Concerning things like Ballista, Brenner, Pankration, etc etc - I figure they might be separate from the battle system. If anyone feels like describing them go ahead.

Now going back to the first paragraph: perhaps skill can be found in calculating the right set of equipment/merits or using more efficient methods of exp gain/grinding? In any case if we are to accept this than it must be in a separate category from judging the battle system.

Remember we are not only looking for skill, but how wide the range of skill is. Make no mistake this entire exercise is actually judging FFXI as game. We are trying to decide if it a superficial game or not. (To clarify: when I say superficial I mean a shallow game. Tic-Tac-Toe vs Go. Mortal Kombat vs Street Fighter.)

[dejet]

BIG go look at the gimp posts LOL

there is little in this game that cant be done low man. kirin is done with as little as 12 skilled players. fafnir has been done wtih 4. nidhogg can be done with the same i bet(though never seen less then 7 man nidhogg)

tia/khim/cerb are all mobs that can be done with less then 8 people(if your group knows the mob)
only few mobs that come to mind that need pure numbers are vrtra(you cant low man this theres just no why. i dont think anyone has done it with less then like 16 people(and taht was a zerg) if you do the fight without zerg it takes 20+ people.
AV(bring 100+ people ya might kill it LOL)
PW(only kill was with what 30+ players?)

even the big Dnamis lord has been guned down with as few as 15.

so jsut point this out ill use my own LS as a show of the spred of skill
my LS wiped to khim at 3% ~_~ (with 14 people)
my ls wiped to nidhogg with 16 people.
we downed fafnir in 20min(this was after people saw a few fights)

lots of the members of my shell have done 0 end game. outside the main leaders/ a few friends the rest are learning. so ya theres a big gap.

does gear play a roll? yes for a lot fights gear helps big time.
skill is not always > gear but for the most part you can have the best gear in the game and not do anything right and fail

[BRP]

lots of the members of my shell have done 0 end game. outside the main leaders/ a few friends the rest are learning. so ya theres a big gap.

Lets not be so quick to judge that. All this tells me is that there is a gap.

skill is not always > gear

Those would be situations where the challenge is mostly superficial.

Now gear is going to be play some role, so one can't just ignore it. It would be helpful to include at least minimal amounts of information on gear in situations where they no doubt played a role. EDIT: I think looking to extremes will help paint the image. How far can someone go with no gear or poor gear and so on? On the other hand shitty can someone be with perfect gear? lol

Another way to look at this is to place more attention on individual actions rather than the entire battle. Curing, stunning, holding hate, keeping shadows up, etc.

[Meian]

Overall I am willing to accept the "good players" being those with experience in the said MMO and be willing to be open minded. Both are important to me because someone can be playing for years but be stubborn to accept new ways (ex: the amount of people thinking /sch for WHM is no good).

Gear is secondary to that but there has to be a limit. Can't walk around wearing af1 fully at 75 for years XD on most jobs anyway.

[chiyio]

even the big Dnamis lord has been guned down with as few as 15.

That's not a matter of skill, thats how many KC Drks you can throw at it. Unless I misunderstood, the entire gap was to be based NOT on gear.

[Thitaubian]

The first thing that comes to my mind when I read your post is:
In merits, I pull a bird while exping on bard, one of our melees swings around the bird still being fought to face the next bird so auto-engage will do its work. The other three melee do not.
Maybe they do not know, maybe they are lazy and don't care.

Next thing
I am soloing a scale in Riverne on my blm.
I cast sleep
wait a few seconds (so sleep will be ready again once I finish freeze)
freeze
sleep
rest two ticks
sleep 2
rest 6 ticks
bind
sleep wears off while bind is still on
sleep
repeat from beginning until dead

I have also seen other blms going /nin having to recast utsusemi quite often because they don't make use of bind/sleep recast/duration in this manner.
They probably don't know.

I'd say both can describe 'skill' but it is more similar to "knowledge of the battle system" than "at what point in time do I hit my cast macro to not get the 'can't cast spells' line and have to wait an extra 1seconds" although that can be described as skill as well.

Then there is being able to cast between mob attacks. Some people get it some don't. I know I can't do it every single time but it always urked me when I saw plds getting interupted casting cure III (pre shield mastery) since cure III is not that long of a cast.

[Xno Kappa]

Solo'ing Cactrot Rapido? Not every RDM can do that without getting owned in the face.

[Nirokun!]

It would probably be easier to go job by job, because some things apply to only a handful of jobs (pet manipulation, magic manipulation) where you wouldn't be "unskilled" if you don't play the job. A person skilled in one or two jobs would probably be more in-tune with his/her macro set and comfort in various situations than someone who plays 12 (even if they play them all.) I guess skill in ffxi is all based on judgement. Choosing the best response to any given situation given the tools you have. Bad players don't do that

(Ex. Mob has, say 500hp left. Your gearset lets your Aero3 kill it. Do you use Aero3 or do you use Blizzard3 because it is macro'd and handy? You would save more mp using aero3, but blizz3 is more convenient, and merits into ice potency makes you feel like it is more important. Are there other mobs around where that mp would be saved on them? How is mp recovery? Is someone else casting before you? What are they casting? Do you recall the aero3/blizz3 for a drain because the spell they're casting [and the gear they're using] wont cut it?) It just depends on how far you want to go into it, but I think going job-by-job is easier.

[Thitaubian]

... I think going job-by-job is easier.

In that case I'll just make this theory:
The more Spells/JAs a job has the wider the 'gap' between 'skilled' and 'unskilled' players can be.
Because it's always a question of when and how do I use my Spells/JAs and if there are more Spells/JAs to choose from the answer becomes more and more complex requiring more and more 'skill'. (imo)

[drwaffles]

Being a "good" FFXI player involves being prepared, knowing what you're doing in practically any situation without being told, and having the capacity to adapt quickly when something untoward happens. Simply put, the difference between "good" and "bad" players is that the former can be relied upon to perform their duties in any scenario no questions asked, and not fuck things up due to lack of knowledge of their surroundings/enemies. It's all about being well-informed.

[BRP]

The more useful Spells/JAs a job has the wider the 'gap' between 'skilled' and 'unskilled' players can be.

Fixing your theory a bit.

Also surprised someone hasn't mentioned Skillchains yet. As for as I am concerned, they are rarely useful so they shouldn't be considered with TOO much importance. Feel free to prove me wrong though.

[Shin Volcano]

Skill is something you can't teach, you can show them, and advise them, but if a players mental capicity can't think quickly or learn how to adapt to a sitataion and have to be told over and over again to do the same thing, then it's a lost cause, this game isn't really HARD to the point where it's complex rubics cube, simply put, if somone keeps sucking at this game, chances are they aren't going to get better. i know a certain RDM on this server, who brags about soloing nonestop, "i can solo this and that yay me!" but when he was put into a PT situation he couldnt keep a refresh order, didnt haste anyone but him self, was never tossing any enfeebles on, and was very slow on curing, i guess he thought due to mastering how fastcast worked he thought he was the "best" RDM,a gap like that in huge in a wierd way.

[byte]

That's not a matter of skill, thats how many KC Drks you can throw at it. Unless I misunderstood, the entire gap was to be based NOT on gear.

To deny that this takes a level of co-ordination ability and skill to pull off would just be plain ignorant.

[BRP]

To deny that this takes a level of co-ordination ability and skill to pull off would just be plain deceitful.

Okay, but at least elaborate first.

Not to mention to skill or maybe persistence (Thought not always the case) in obtaining said KCs in the first place.

Just. No.

[Buttons]

The good player is the one who is always prepared, who reads up on strategies and on jobs. The bad players are the ones who are too lazy to look at the wiki and don't read up on anything.
Gear does make a difference, but the really good players are the flexible ones, the ones that did their homework and make smart gear choices, and when a piece is currently out of their reach they find an alternative.
The bad players are the uninformed or the ones that do not care, like the many melees in the Gimp thread Tping in str rings and warwolf belt....

[Ohaigaiz]

Fixing your theory a bit.

Also surprised someone hasn't mentioned Skillchains yet. As for as I am concerned, they are rarely useful so they shouldn't be considered with TOO much importance. Feel free to prove me wrong though.

In just about every HNM and or boss mob that takes more than 15 minutes to kill a skillchain is used. Free nuking is usually in play, but between THF+SAM, SAM+Sekkanoki and job+job skillchains are used whenever they can be used. This is bringing spike damage up by nearly 1/3 of what free nuking does.

Given, though, in parties skillchains are rarely used as a mob is only up for 30seconds-3minutes.

[Xno Kappa]

Not to mention the skill or perhaps persistence is a better word (Thought not always the case) in obtaining said KCs in the first place.

Skill? Hell no. What makes Joe 1/1 Schmoe more skillful then someone who goes 0/???

[byte]

What if you soloed KC? That is an act without skill? Maybe you abused your LS/bank and then that is a skill in manipulating people. Whether that be something to be praised or not.

[drwaffles]

Organizing a zerg with 15 people shouldn't require much cognitive ability, especially considering you're not dealing with multiple alliances. That said, my LS once megafailed a Vrtra zerg because two of the three BRDs present were incapable of following a simple set of instructions, and hence started singing 30 seconds after the allocated time. To top it all off, one of them even decided to play Mambo.

At the extreme end of the spectrum, really bad players often manage to fuck up things that seem so utterly simplistic to the rest of us that it sometimes reaches the point where you have to question 1. how the fuck they ever made it past level 10, and 2. whether they might actually have severe learning difficulties in real life. You all know the ones I'm talking about.

[byte]

Oh I forgot to post my definition..

In my opinion, skill in FFXI is the ability to think and act fast, adapting your setup from a pool of options and moulding your strategy and actions to best suit the situation in the goal of accelerating your success or ensuring it.