The gap between good players and bad players

[blackmail]

There are too many people who, regardless of their skillset and aptitude, do not play an MMO to excel at any aspect of it and therefore skew the relevance of skill. These kinds of people tend to play together as do those who care about excelling. It creates an artificial gap which is only exacerbated by the constant comparison that one is not subjected to while playing an offline game by yourself. Most games in an RPG style also do not require any skill as part of the point of the genre. They are made purposefully to be winnable with knowledge and practice rather than reflexes or strategy because they value the story and the experience. Game designers however recognize their audience in the people who want to go above and beyond in anything they do which is why even RPGs usually have hard modes or extra special goals.

So compare FFXI as a game to another game, don't compare the people who play it to each other. FFXI has no less depth than your average Square RPG, it may in fact have more simply by being larger in scope.

This.

[Fridell]

I think a big deal on skill is LS's that do not use people who leveled BLM to 75 for the sake of putting it on an application. A common trend in many LS is having nice tanks, nice melee DD, and then a group of BLMs that are total garbage that are just there to gear their melee job. BLMs need to take BLM seriously and not nuke in thier AF1 feet and an Al Zahbi sash. Also Merits reflect time and effort, anyone can get them and they are necessary

Correct.
I also liked what neosutra stated earlier.

[Diamicles]

Reading this thread, I think there is one common misconception here:

Gaming Intelligence =/= skill.

Knowledge of game mechanics, being prepared for any situation, knowing how to play the job properly, all signs of gaming intelligence, but not a measure of skill. These are all things that a good player will/can do, but do not constitute skill. Being a poker player, and former M:TG player, 'skill' is a term used very loosely, and very often incorrectly. In both games, knowing what you're doing, what your opponent can do, and making the right play when a new situation arises are all signs of good gaming intelligence. Bluffing is a skill, it is a technique to try and change the way a scenario plays out without knowing if you can win. Being able to execute as the situation occurs is what skill is in games.

edit: The dictionary defines skill as "the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well"...but personally I don't define preparedness (as in FFXI) as a skill, but application of the preparation.

Sort of lost my train of thought on this one, but I'm sure my point was illustrated well enough.

[Kaylia]

I could write a long post, but I think it always come back to three things


-The ability to recognize your mistakes, and figure a safer/better method to avoid repeating them. You can always improve you positioning, movement or your macro design (with failsafe) ...etc

-The ability to optimize any situations and find a strategy that could potentially save you some time (even if it 5sec out of a 20min fight). People who steals strategy and never try to improve them (or design their own) usually suck, because they lack the skill to improvise if something go wrong. I don't know how many time I saw people go brain dead after a tank died or something. Just because it's not going according to the plan doesn't mean we can't win.


-Enough dedication to reach the point where there is a huge diminishing return (20 pages) on the amount of time spent vs the benefit it give you. You don't need white border in every slot, but there is always a soft cap you need to reach.



In other words
-Recognize your mistake (and feel bad about them)
-Learn the game mechanics (can you write the AI script?)
-Enough dedication to efficiently use all your job.

[Tempyst]

Skill in ffxi is not spergin' to the point where you alienate people who can help you achieve your goals

[Uubu]

"Skill" is too broad a term to define how good someone is at there job/game.

Things to take into account are (and probably in this order):

1. Attentiveness (ability to listen to others/leader/community)
2. Reaction (ability to act accordingly to what has just happened)
3. Organization / Knowledgebase (knowing what to expect / planning)
4. Dedication (merits / gear)

----------

rant

Solo'ing anything does not show any "skill" in the game, just in the fact that you know how to solo.
BLM's who use AM2's more then tier 3 nukes need to go back to mage school.
Twinked melee who know they are going to pull hate but dont use the proper subjob/gear to compensate should go level mage jobs.

end /rant

[Kaylia]

BLM's who use AM2's more then tier 3 nukes need to go back to mage school.end /rant

Hey guyz, I'm mp efficient.



True, but other blm get cockblocked because of the increase in resist, and you spend most of your nuking instead of resting. Not to mention you will end up giving twice as much tp if it's a manaburn and WS matter.


I'm not saying T3 nukes are bad or anything, but they are rarely better than ancient/T4.

[Klaatu]

You can't generalize discrepancies in skill between all players. It's all on case by case basis. One of the biggest things that hinders a lot of players, is a lack of communication or ability to properly communicate. And it's not just as a player, but as a human being.

[Tempyst]

You can't generalize discrepancies in skill between all players. It's all on case by case basis. One of the biggest things that hinders a lot of players, is a lack of communication or ability to properly communicate. And it's not just as a player, but as a human being.

Seeing as how MMOs do seem to attract hordes of socially maladjusted types, I wonder how many otherwise "skillful" players (however you'd define skill) have cut themselves off at the knees in game progression by having terrible interpersonal skills.

I can think of a few examples, but the one that keeps coming to mind was a guy with decent gear and motivation who got himself stranded on a server where he didn't know anyone by trying to ninja lot a BLU AF2 body

[AoshiZ]

Skill is difficult to measure because there are many forms of it...
Skill can probably be mapped to intelligence in what this thread is talking about.
There was a more recent theory of measuring intelligence by Gardner called "multiple intelligences and education"

Theory of multiple intelligences - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This theory includes 7 different areas of "intelligence"

Bodily-kinesthetic Skill (Dexterity with stun, shadowcounting,abil and spell timing)

Interpersonal(Ability to Rally groups for events, working with others,achieving goals with people)

Verbal-linguistic(Ability to read and understand hints in the game and extrapolate solutions, communicate clearing in leading events.)

Logical-mathematical(Calculation of formula's and damage efficiency using tools such as parsers)

Naturalistic(utilization of the game environment and finding uses with outofthebox concepts of terrain and weather)

Intrapersonal(This ones kinda hard but... I think the ability to work on various things alone and relying on oneself. Research and independance)

Visual-spatial(Ability to calculate casting distance or AOE range visually without tools)

Musical(I have no Idea how this would help in the game =/)

All of the above (except maybe musical) have a large impact in the success of individuals in FFXI in my opinion. You will always notice that the more successful LS's employ many of these traits.

By the way, I don't necessarily believe in Gardner's theory of intelligence but that it is a nice static theory that can be mapped to various aspects of "Skill" in FFXI.

[Ashira]

Musical(I have no Idea how this would help in the game =/)

BEING A BRD!

duh


Ability to entertain people on vent with random karaoke moments?

[Panthera]

There is an easy, quantifiable way to determine the gap between atrocious player and someone with a talent for this game.

Mjolnir
vs
Thehulkx

The first is someone who's done their homework. The second takes the trouble to name themselves after a mindless green brute. How fitting. Unfortunatly, someone named their tarutaru cooking mule in Windurst Thehulk as a joke. So, they put an x and the end to get their beloved comic character's name. The "X" stands for "Put an X in the box if you need to have the short bus pick you up after school." Starting a name with "x" is an intelligent way to get yourself put near bottom of the search list, LFG for hours on inexplicable end. He also could have gone with Thehulkz. Z for "ZzzZZZzzzZZzz," what their minds are doing when they're playing. Somehow, they thought it was necessaryh to put a "the" in front of their name to distinguish themselves, when their level of play is often singular, memorable, and deplorable; the "the" is redudant.

Silver
vs
Silvver, or Sillver, or Sillvver, or Silpher, or Sllver

The first one demonstarted that they can spell a word learned from elementary school. The first two thereafter show their resolve to name themselves after the 2nd place metal. The more unnecessary letters they throw at a name, the more the skill gap increases between the orignal Silver, and the rank5 puppetmaster with no ninja subjob, no runic portals, no Wotg expansion, no sneak / invisible tools, and no business playing FFXI. I don't even know what "Silpher" is, it sounds like a disease. And as for Sllver, l's are not i's. Notice the dot at the "i" identifying the letter from "l." Perhaps the dot intended to punctuate a sentance, but got distracted by the slender good looks of the base of the "i," and they stayed together as a single letter ever since. True love. And yes, i have dealt with not one but two different variations on people attempting to name themselves after a precious gem, but they shall remain /anon to protect their innocence. (PS, I'm sure the original Sapphire plays just fine).

Any self-titled persons take Themselves much too seriously, King, Lord, Lady, etc, and think Themselves above criticism. Be most sure to /kneel whenever in Their presence, and whenever leaving Them. It's not too much to use "Thee" and "Thy" when addressing Them. By Altana's will! Lordhulkx (that's X for, "The Tenth,") can use any subjob He wants to due to "Divine Might (which they still need to do)." Verily, pay Them gil as tribute for whenever They need shihei, as Their busy ruling and decreeing schedule prohibits Them from making Their own gil. By my troth, when They sell their accounts, for it is Altanta's will, it is called "abdicating the throne."

Beware! of anyone who's name start with Shadow or Dark. They know what evil lurks in the hearts of gilsellers, mwuhhahahahahaa. They stalk the denizens of end game linkshells, surprising them with secret tactics, agroing multiple foes and bringing them back to their comrade's ambush, much to even their bretheren's surprise!!! The tragic pasts of these mysterious protagonstists predict apocalyptic futures as history repeats itself (they never fucking learn...)

The gap, i hope i have demonstrated, is indentifiable on a player-by-player basis by using the seach comment. Recruit "Phobos," not "Xxthedarkshaddowlordfoboxz,"

... or Saphire.

[Drunknmunky]

I think BRP is looking for a trophy for excelling in a video game. Good luck, buddy.

IT'S A VIDEO GAME!

Question for you.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...mGuyRetard.jpg

[Tempyst]

Question for you.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...mGuyRetard.jpg

a family guy image macro done in mspaint





good god

[Demosthenes11]

click his profile and read the rest of his posts

I promise you MS painted family guy is probably the best post he has made

[Drunknmunky]

click his profile and read the rest of his posts

I promise you MS painted family guy is probably the best post he has made

Was expecting ratatapa, magnakai, Jhun, or drwaffles quoting what I usually post because is what they usually do since they are still butt sore from my past and previous statements that I have made

I’ am also curios about something why would ask someone to check my profile and read all my past and previous post that I have made?

Unless you are still mad at me for making, you look like an e-thug wannabe on BG?

Whatever man just let it go if you decide to take this further, just keep in mind that there are other options that you can choose.

First Option is that we can deal with your issues towards me thru pm.

Second option would be that you can quote every single comment that I make on each thread and at the same time, you will make yourself look like a retard and a troll.

Whatever choice or option you choose to make please keep in mind that whatever you do on these forums it does not affect me at all.

[Tempyst]

if you can keep a grocery list of people that shit on you every time you post it's time to give it up

[Demosthenes11]

kinda sad you accuse me of trolling all of your posts when you can't live any of the people's dicks alone that you mentioned.

but this thread is about much bigger things than you and me

[didgist]

I think the real gap is people who play Final Fantasy versus the people who play WoW.
I got tired of jamming my 1 and 2 keys and clicking on something 30 times in one second by the time Diablo 2 came out.


I liked a page or two back where someone said something along the lines of good players make things smoother and bad players do just the opposite.

I think arrogance hinders the game in a way that not having gear/LS/play time could never get close to. People who simply refuse to have any accountability for themselves only fuck everything up in the end, and the rest of the players who carry their own weight feel burned because they paid 12 bucks to kick asses and their alliance members paid 12 bucks to be asses.

From what I see a lack of skill can be overcome and a lack of decency can not.

[Crouchingllama]

Will this thread ever end?