The gap between good players and bad players

[Kohan]

Will this thread ever end?

No, because a bunch of people just can't resist complaining about the word "skill," even though no sensible person gives two shits.

If you want to use a different word, go right ahead, but don't sit there and whine about usage when you got the fucking point. It got the message across. You understood. Now try to contribute instead of being a little bitch.

Unless you're stupid and you don't understand what the discussion is about because the word "skill" confused you so terribly, in which case, just don't post.

[Ruuz]

I was totally gonna read this thread, but then someone proposed Genome as one of the most skilled players, and I died a little inside. Where did they put the MNK v. WAR sticky? Genome had some epic fail in that thread. Of course, there is always the classic:

Togi v. Osode

[Dimmauk]

This game is all skill. The skill to make/use the same macros everyone else uses. The skill/ability to count 1,2,3,4. The skill in playing a game 16 hours a day. The skill in making friends/sucking dick for drops. The skill in using windower and bots. The skill in making gil or just buying it. The skill in having a sweet computer and internet connection. The skill in afking/looking at porn.

I dont mind playing with people that dont have the best gear around, as long as they know how to play their job, they know game mechanics, and they know what the mob's moves/spells do and the status effects the mobs cause.

[Yugl]

I was totally gonna read this thread, but then someone proposed Genome as one of the most skilled players, and I died a little inside. Where did they put the MNK v. WAR sticky? Genome had some epic fail in that thread. Of course, there is always the classic:

Togi v. Osode

I'm not a MNK so I have no idea what the hell you're talking about, but on Diabolos, Genome wasn't hated as much as he is here. I don't get why this forum has a different attitude towards him.

No, because a bunch of people just can't resist complaining about the word "skill," even though no sensible person gives two shits.

Kohan strikes again!

[Kohan]

I'm not a MNK so I have no idea what the hell you're talking about, but on Diabolos, Genome wasn't hated as much as he is here. I don't get why this forum has a different attitude towards him.

Kohan strikes again!

I also struck earlier versus Genome, coincidentally enough. He isn't simply despised here. He was kicked off FFXIclopedia's forums, if I remember correctly, which is outright hilarious considering that they're not exactly a source of well-researched information. He was unofficially banned from the MNK forums of Allakhazam, even. He's an idiot who manages to use coherent speech interspersed with big words, and thus successfully hides the fact that he doesn't know shit from the people who don't know any better.

If you want to play devil's advocate, yes, he does have fair knowledge of some of the in-game mechanics, but he interprets shit in the strangest of ways, believes almost everyone else is wrong in regards to how things work, uses insufficient sample sets, and so on, so forth. He's an arrogant dumbass with a decent vocabulary.

[Ruuz]

I'm not a MNK so I have no idea what the hell you're talking about, but on Diabolos, Genome wasn't hated as much as he is here. I don't get why this forum has a different attitude towards him.

Cause he is a fucking idiot. I dont care how skilled he is, his misinformation has been terrible for the entire community. It's just easier to write him off entirely than it is to weed out what is true from all his bs.

[Day]

lag.

[Yugl]

I also struck earlier versus Genome, coincidentally enough. He isn't simply despised here. He was kicked off FFXIclopedia's forums, if I remember correctly, which is outright hilarious considering that they're not exactly a source of well-researched information. He was unofficially banned from the MNK forums of Allakhazam, even. He's an idiot who manages to use coherent speech interspersed with big words, and thus successfully hides the fact that he doesn't know shit from the people who don't know any better.

If you want to play devil's advocate, yes, he does have fair knowledge of some of the in-game mechanics, but he interprets shit in the strangest of ways, believes almost everyone else is wrong in regards to how things work, uses insufficient sample sets, and so on, so forth. He's an arrogant dumbass with a decent vocabulary.

Well that's new to me. I thought it was a BG-Only deal, but I guess it's all over.

[Max™]

I can't count to four, but luckily I only sub Nin, and as such have never had to deal with that inability in game.

[BRP]

No, because a bunch of people just can't resist complaining about the word "skill," even though no sensible person gives two shits.

If you want to use a different word, go right ahead, but don't sit there and whine about usage when you got the fucking point. It got the message across. You understood. Now try to contribute instead of being a little bitch.

Unless you're stupid and you don't understand what the discussion is about because the word "skill" confused you so terribly, in which case, just don't post.

Thank you. This is all that needs to be said concerning this manner.

Aside from that, yes, the gap exists, but has little to do with the longevity of the game, in my opinion. As I'd touched on in my previous post too -- but this is the simplified version -- there are the casuals, and the exceptions. They will always be two different groups.

I would say longevity is always tied to the gap(physical representation of depth) when the game is honest with its depth. FFXI of course has a shitload of longevity, but we can certainly say a lot of it is because of superficial challenges. The question is how much isn't due to it.

Casuals, if we are on the same page here, are people who have no desire to grow. If they are able to succeed without learning then the game could be called simple. Even casuals can find a game to be superficial. This is exactly the case when people say stuff like "You know... I REALLY like Final Fantasy Y, but I just don't feel like finishing it for some reason..." The reason is that they are bored and the game has long lived out its honest longevity.

On the other hand they will always eventually get bored of a game long before they should because they prevent themselves from growing. This is the difference between someone who plays Halo multiplayer until they become good at it vs someone who loses interest within a week.

(this topic probably deserves its own thread, especially if we end up disagreeing)

So what relates to our topic is the concept that if people who don't care to learn can succeed then the game must be simple. However if they can't then they don't matter really. This is in reply to Halion's post.

People who don't care about endgame(if we assume that's where the pinnacle of challenge is) don't matter because that's is where we decide the good from the bad. Now if someone doesn't care about endgame and still clears it then the endgame isn't worth caring about. (But then that brings up the whole team problem - are they even players anymore if they are no longer making decisions? Just following directions like a NPC...)

Your mentioning of things like Chocobo Racing doesn't really fit into the picture. That's a mini-game within another game. You are essentially no longer playing "FFXI: The Strategy MMO." So as a package FFXI might become more valuable, but I think it is fair to say we are more concerned about the prime battle system. BG forums is anyway. (I would still love to hear about the depth that might be found in FFXI's mini-games. It would be ignorant to say they must be simpler than FFXI. If SE went and added Chess or Go to FFXI then they have succeeded at making a mini-game deeper than FFXI.)

Most games in an RPG style also do not require any skill as part of the point of the genre. They are made purposefully to be winnable with knowledge and practice rather than reflexes or strategy because they value the story and the experience. Game designers however recognize their audience in the people who want to go above and beyond in anything they do which is why even RPGs usually have hard modes or extra special goals.

By RPG-style I am assume you mean games people call "JRPG" and also a trend to sacrifice challenge to allow players to get a story without interruption. Those games are undeniably simpler. An evil, evil trend that is...

Anyway, practice and knowledge brings reflexes and strategy.

Those extra modes might make things more interesting by forcing players to work harder, but does such a thing exist in FFXI?

So compare FFXI as a game to another game, don't compare the people who play it to each other.

You must understand that they are completely related. You can't honestly do the former without the latter.

FFXI has no less depth than your average Square RPG, it may in fact have more simply by being larger in scope.

I would have to disagree. FFXI at least places an importance on position. That's a huge step in terms of strategy.

[Bdawgbud]

There is an easy, quantifiable way to determine the gap between atrocious player and someone with a talent for this game.

Mjolnir
vs
Thehulkx

The first is someone who's done their homework. The second takes the trouble to name themselves after a mindless green brute. How fitting. Unfortunatly, someone named their tarutaru cooking mule in Windurst Thehulk as a joke. So, they put an x and the end to get their beloved comic character's name. The "X" stands for "Put an X in the box if you need to have the short bus pick you up after school." Starting a name with "x" is an intelligent way to get yourself put near bottom of the search list, LFG for hours on inexplicable end. He also could have gone with Thehulkz. Z for "ZzzZZZzzzZZzz," what their minds are doing when they're playing. Somehow, they thought it was necessaryh to put a "the" in front of their name to distinguish themselves, when their level of play is often singular, memorable, and deplorable; the "the" is redudant.

Silver
vs
Silvver, or Sillver, or Sillvver, or Silpher, or Sllver

The first one demonstarted that they can spell a word learned from elementary school. The first two thereafter show their resolve to name themselves after the 2nd place metal. The more unnecessary letters they throw at a name, the more the skill gap increases between the orignal Silver, and the rank5 puppetmaster with no ninja subjob, no runic portals, no Wotg expansion, no sneak / invisible tools, and no business playing FFXI. I don't even know what "Silpher" is, it sounds like a disease. And as for Sllver, l's are not i's. Notice the dot at the "i" identifying the letter from "l." Perhaps the dot intended to punctuate a sentance, but got distracted by the slender good looks of the base of the "i," and they stayed together as a single letter ever since. True love. And yes, i have dealt with not one but two different variations on people attempting to name themselves after a precious gem, but they shall remain /anon to protect their innocence. (PS, I'm sure the original Sapphire plays just fine).

Any self-titled persons take Themselves much too seriously, King, Lord, Lady, etc, and think Themselves above criticism. Be most sure to /kneel whenever in Their presence, and whenever leaving Them. It's not too much to use "Thee" and "Thy" when addressing Them. By Altana's will! Lordhulkx (that's X for, "The Tenth,") can use any subjob He wants to due to "Divine Might (which they still need to do)." Verily, pay Them gil as tribute for whenever They need shihei, as Their busy ruling and decreeing schedule prohibits Them from making Their own gil. By my troth, when They sell their accounts, for it is Altanta's will, it is called "abdicating the throne."

Beware! of anyone who's name start with Shadow or Dark. They know what evil lurks in the hearts of gilsellers, mwuhhahahahahaa. They stalk the denizens of end game linkshells, surprising them with secret tactics, agroing multiple foes and bringing them back to their comrade's ambush, much to even their bretheren's surprise!!! The tragic pasts of these mysterious protagonstists predict apocalyptic futures as history repeats itself (they never fucking learn...)

The gap, i hope i have demonstrated, is indentifiable on a player-by-player basis by using the seach comment. Recruit "Phobos," not "Xxthedarkshaddowlordfoboxz,"

... or Saphire.

Anyone whose name ends with Killa

[Emirii]

I think i am an avarage player, i do know things but I dont have the greatest omfgbbq gear (utsu, morrigans, w.legs...) I know whats right from wrong, and i make stupid mistakes sometimes but then again, everyone does. Does this break the center?

But I do see where your coming at. I can name a few right now. Its the type who somehow find themselves into end game and lootwhore all the items they have now, but still dont know how to play the game. It happens all to often.

I'm pretty modest usually, and I openly admit my mistakes so people can help me correct it. I'm just the avarage joe, not exceptional, but not bad either.

[Tagus]

I think that the definition of skilled vs. non-skilled all boils down to the amount of effort a person puts into the game across all areas. The tools are available at this point for virtually anybody to become a good player if they put in the time and effort to do so, but somehow still the gap between good and bad players can be staggering. I gotta say, I loved reading this thread because I believe that the differences in skill levels between players is much more of an important thing in determining who is good vs. bad, as opposed to the gear that gets focused on so heavily in end-game. After wiping to mamools with an Apoc in your party, or consistently getting hate in Dynamis because you're the only DD using strength macros while others are full-timing Askar bodies, you really start to realize that a piece of armor or weapon are only as strong as the person using them, and that fact is often overlooked.

[Seraph]

<------------------------------------------------------------->

The gap is that wide. I measured it twice just to be sure.

[Tagus]

Coincidentally, I know a guy with an X in his name that fucking pwns shit.

[Day]

I do too:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...f_My_Flesh.jpg

[Tagus]

You know, there's just something nasty about DMX... I'll bet he smells homeless.