The gap between good players and bad players

[Charismatic]

Knowledge is how you obtain skill. You need to learn how to explore the game's depth completely. You could do this alone or you can share notes and cover more ground.

This is why only one person needs to make a breakthrough for an entire community to get better. This isn't unique to FFXI or anything. Now you will still need at least some experience to back it up. For example a LS fighting something new and difficult for the first time is still likely to lose even if they've read a lot about it. Of course it can be argued this only happens a few times in an LS's life(excluding having to teach new members.)

What you said here is true, but... what skills do you gain through experience in FFXI?
I'm dead serious here, upon fighting that new and deadly enemy don't you gain knowledge of its behaviors and strengths? I'm sure you do.
What skills do you gain though?

[byte]

Knowledge is how you obtain skill.

Skill is a combination of knowledge and application. They are not the same thing.

Tying your shoelaces or using a knife and fork is still a skill, no matter how "easy" you consider it. You can't do it without instruction and practice.

Skill: "the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills. "

Just wanted to post that we actually agree on this.

What you said here is true, but... what skills do you gain through experience in FFXI?
I'm dead serious here, upon fighting that new and deadly enemy don't you gain knowledge of its behaviors and strengths? I'm sure you do.
What skills do you gain though?

Actually, I can't argue with this. Since knowledge is all information and skill is ultimately information stored in your brain.

[miokomioko]

I feel like one of the most noticable gaps is a player's ability to play and read the textbox at the same time. The ability to read/follow new instructions and also recognize immediate threats through the scrolling text, all while doing their job.

A skilled player should be able to recognize when their actions are benefitting the group or ultimately hindering it and adjust accordingly, whether it be by getting out of range of bad AoE attacks when HP is low, ceasing feeding TP while MP is an issue, resting MP, focusing on stuns, holding back on nukes, taking over curing, whatever.

That should be a "good" skilled player while a "normal" skilled player would perhaps not immediately notice and act on these things immediately but will quickly read the group/leaders telling him/her what to do and follow accordingly.

Basically...

bad: doesn't see threats, doesn't respond to instructions (the seemingly afk melee)
ok: doesn't see threats, but responds to instructions
good: sees threats and acts without instruction, possibly informing others

[Therin]

I dont understand why people are relating to the kings as an event that takes skill. If you want to look at the gap, look at something more substantial that actually takes skill like Einherjar.

Einherjar is a horrible example. The measurement that determines your success in Einherjar is brute force. You could take the twelve BEST players from every server and stick them in tier 3 and they wouldn't be able to clear it unless they got insanely lucky on spawns.

Micromanaging Salvage, Dynamis, and HNMs are the best things to mark skill by, in my opinion. Sure, Fafnir's a puss with 12-18. But take it down with 6 in 20 minutes and you're clearly doing pretty well.

[Charismatic]

Basically...

bad: doesn't see threats, doesn't respond to instructions
ok: doesn't see threats, but responds to instructions
good: sees threats and acts without instruction, possibly informing others

So, once again... the difference in the players is what they know?

[Gadritan]

Again, for both of the above posts, knowledge... not skill.
My first time blink tanking wasn't hard because I leveled Paladin before I touched Ninja, I've seen the enemies swing at me a million times, I know how fast they swing, etc.

The knowledge I already had made Blink Tanking a breeze.

Yeah, I did the exact same and this is very true.

I think skill in FFXI basically comes down to intelligence. From the vanguard players who are the first to attempt and conquer things in game, to those that simply apply and refine those same strategies or create altogether new ones, it all comes down to comprehending game dynamics and a good memory.

[Thitaubian]

Again, for both of the above posts, knowledge... not skill.
...

skill

–noun
1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.
2. competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.
3. a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.
4. Obsolete. understanding; discernment.
5. Obsolete. reason; cause.
[from www.dictionary.com]

You two are arguing between two definitions of skill. 1st and 2nd.
For our discussion it is indeed interesting to see which definition of skill we wish to use.
But do please try to make your posts more than 'no you are wrong that is not skill blahrg'.

Why would you prefer to use one definition rather than the other?

I am perfectly fine with including 'knowledge' in 'skill'.
I have this opinion because the topic of the OP was the gap between the good and the bad, then we started speaking of skill.
For the purpose of discussing this gap using a definition of skill that includes knowledge is (imo) acceptable, not detrimental, but also unnecessary since we can simply apply other words to convey our meaning.

If you want to make a separation between knowledge and manual dexterity you can simply use those terms and disregard what 'skill' means.

[euph]

Einherjar is a horrible example. The measurement that determines your success in Einherjar is brute force. You could take the twelve BEST players from every server and stick them in tier 3 and they wouldn't be able to clear it unless they got insanely lucky on spawns.

Micromanaging Salvage, Dynamis, and HNMs are the best things to mark skill by, in my opinion. Sure, Fafnir's a puss with 12-18. But take it down with 6 in 20 minutes and you're clearly doing pretty well.

i take it your linkshell has trouble with einherjar then?

[Damane]

FFXI doesn't really take any skill.
It honestly doesn't.

Knowledge, yeah. Skill, no.

But isnt knowledge also some kind of skill?

I agree that if you know alot of FFXI, can learn fast and adapt fast to siuations you will be regarded a skilled player.

skilled player:
- knows the terrain, surrounding and enemy he is gonna face
- can adjust himself to various situations occureing
- has fast reflexes
- learns fast from mistakes/new things
- judges the situation right and acts according to it, considering efficience and security of the group
- sets the right prioritys at the right time when shit hits the fan
- knows his tools and their possiblitys, uses them according to that

its common sense.

[Charismatic]

@Thitaubian
Definition 2 from there is what I believe skill to be. If you say someone is a skilled marksman, you don't meant to say that he can fire a weapon, you mean that he can do it with great accuracy, etc.

[Therin]

i take it your linkshell has trouble with einherjar then?

Any linkshell that takes ~15 people on average will have trouble with it, even if all 15 have relic weapons and have been playing since release.

[byte]

@Thitaubian
Definition 2 from there is what I believe skill to be. If you say someone is a skilled marksman, you don't meant to say that he can fire a weapon, you mean that he can do it with great accuracy, etc.

Which requires knowledge of how to do it accurately, whether that be knowledge that can be written down or only developed through practise . That is why I favour definition 1.

[Charismatic]

Which requires knowledge of how to do it accurately, whether that be knowledge that can be written down or only developed through practise . That is why I favour definition 1.

Well obviously that's true.
But in FFXI... what do you require other than knowledge of when to hit Alt+5 at the correct time? Not a fucking thing.

That's not something you can really do better than someone else who has the same knowledge.

[euph]

Any linkshell that takes ~15 people on average will have trouble with it, even if all 15 have relic weapons and have been playing since release.

the point im trying to make is this; the self proclaimed skilled players that go around killing kings and saying they are the best cant win an einherjar with 36. Where as a skilled group of 25-27 can win einherjar no problem. everytime.

[BRP]

-In response to Charismatic.

At the lowest level just learning to use your spells and abilities would be able to preoccupy a player.

Somewhere higher would be reacting to the monster with spells like Stun. Using your abilities to their fullest would be around here too.

I think at the highest level you are predicting what the monster will do and attempt to create a safe and stable environment where you can no longer wipe. Or the alternative, beat it before it reacts enough to wipe you... this probably drops the need for skill back down to the middle there.

Now you can read information alone and understand these concepts, but not unlike learning how to do a special joystick motion you still will need to perform them first in order to master them. This is especially true for the last where you will often come to "react or die" unstable situations, the type we said earlier we'd expect from an expert player.

The real question is how necessary is this? For example in the case of exp you don't need to go beyond the middle step. Right now that's what I am more interested in. This talk of "knowledge vs skill" probably won't provide much.

There is also the issue of job balance undermining challenge. I am not sure how to touch that issue yet. SE doesn't anyway lol.

EDIT: Oh I didn't make it clear: The person would never be able to advance if he didn't solve the previous step through some sort of practice.

[miokomioko]

So, once again... the difference in the players is what they know?

more like whether they pay attention to what they know.

[byte]

Well obviously that's true.
But in FFXI... what do you require other than knowledge of when to hit Alt+5 at the correct time? Not a fucking thing.

That's not something you can really do better than someone else who has the same knowledge.

As I said earlier,

I've seen ninjas solo some incredible things.. but I know that I don't have the skill or patience required to do it. Whenever I've tried, many of the things they solo seem "hard" even though they sometimes claim they are "easy". Matter of perspective.

I do not possess the dexterity/reaction-time or super fast thinking to do these kind of solos and I don't know that I ever will. That's pretty much the same reason I play MMORPG and not FPS. I'm a strategist, not a soldier. (Metaphorically speaking <.<)

Being able to comprehend and understand concepts is a different skill (haha here we go again) to being able to think quickly. I have the former, not the latter and that's why I come out with so much stupid shit on BG when I don't think before I post.

[Shin Volcano]

Einherjar is a horrible example. The measurement that determines your success in Einherjar is brute force. You could take the twelve BEST players from every server and stick them in tier 3 and they wouldn't be able to clear it unless they got insanely lucky on spawns.

Micromanaging Salvage, Dynamis, and HNMs are the best things to mark skill by, in my opinion. Sure, Fafnir's a puss with 12-18. But take it down with 6 in 20 minutes and you're clearly doing pretty well.

I don't really agree on the HNM part... i'v seen some of the WORST players decked out on a bodies/e bodies/etc and were horrible skill wise compared to almost every other even half-decent LS simply because Kings werent hard, they just had better bots. yet when these said groups tried tiamat for example they couldn't get it past 95% without getting ass raped.


It's really on "Select" HNMs that really require skill. Dark Ixion is a good example of somthing you can't just rush it and wack it to death or depend on a bot without thinking .

[Asura_Zilla]

Skill (in FFXI), imo, can be divided into several categories:
-It is your capability to not break down and fuck up when shit hits the fan. To think calmly, carefully and rationalize the situation while reacting quickly(granted it doesn't happen often in FFXI.. but it can happen).
-Your ability to avoid aggro. Surprising as this may sound, I still don't have any idea how 75% of people aggro what they do, seriously (No, I'm not talking about pots in RuHmet (the fast spinning ones)).
-Being able to choose what gear to wear based on what situation. I suck with numbers, TERRIBLE at them, this is why I admire those maths peoples that can make my life easier without banging my head so hard against my desk (intuition can only take you so far...).

[Charismatic]

If you truly were a strategist you'd be able to solo the same enemies byte.
I've yet to see one thing in FFXI that really did require much dexterity/reaction-time. In fact, the game is built in a way where these things do not benefit you much. The game often limits you.
I really don't want to continue this conversation though, let's just agree to disagree and move on to the real question.

The real question is how necessary is this? For example in the case of exp you don't need to go beyond the middle step. Right now that's what I am more interested in. This talk of "knowledge vs skill" probably won't provide much.

I will say that I honestly don't have a real answer for this question... but I'd say practically all of the content in FFXI only really requires you to go to that middle step unless you're imposing challenges on yourself (low-man, etc)