The DRG at 75 by Starr

[Shinryuu]

Grips:
There are only currently only 2 grips you should ever use, well it's really 1 and maybe the other very occasionally, they are Pole Strap which is awesome as not only does it give 2% more attacks, it increases WS frequency by 1.85%, and Claymore Grip only when combined with Clentine and using solely Drakesbane. Brave grip under no circumstance will outparse either of these grips, do not use it.

No.

Pole grip wins when your level corrected pDIF is higher than 1.5ish. Claymore wins when it's under that. This is assuming you use Drakesbane; if not, Pole pretty much always wins.

I'd do the math on Cletine vs. Thalasso but predict it to be a tossup. However, it's retarded to say Drakesbane is a reason for suddenly picking critical hit equipment. Critical hitrate doesn't have increasing returns to damage, and the returns of critical hitrate are calculated as follows: critical hitrate%*(pDIF+1/pDIF)/pDIF.

Edit: meh.

[Starr]

No.

Pole grip wins when your level corrected pDIF is higher than 1.5ish. Claymore wins when it's under that. This is assuming you use Drakesbane; if not, Pole pretty much always wins.

I'll edit things in with math/parses/proof.

I'd do the math on Cletine vs. Thalasso but predict it to be a tossup. However, it's retarded to say Drakesbane is a reason for suddenly picking critical hit equipment. Critical hitrate doesn't have increasing returns to damage, and the returns of critical hitrate are calculated as follows: critical hitrate%*(pDIF+1/pDIF)/pDIF.

I was using the logic that DA works on TP, Jumps and WS and Crit only works on TP, Jumps and Crit WS (Drakesbane) so it is only logical to stack it then. I can edit that formula in sure.

Btw: mentioning where graphs come from makes you more popular. Not to mention, were this to be an academic setting, it makes you not get arrested. Hugs, Araelus/Shinryuu.

Not sure who the Haste/DA belongs to, I know it was some DRK who posted on KI.
pDIF belongs to VXZ but I wanna change that ASAP to a new, correct 2 handed pDIF graph as soon as one becomes available.
Crit graph I also forgot who it belongs to.

Would be nice to be constructive rather than point out errors and say; "I'd show you the math but I can't be bothered.

[Shinryuu]

Yes, but that's saying every melee with a crit WS should use claymore. Obviously, none of them are, and it's got a reason.

Ok, Claymore v. Pole. I've done this at least 3 times before, but whatever, I totally need to be more constructive.

pDIF of 1: crit +3% increases damage by 3% (100% damage increase from pDIF+1 on 3% of your swings: same for WS. Like, exactly the same, considering DRG doesn't have Mighty Strikes).
Pole increases damage by ~2% through an increase in swings, WS frequency, and WS damage. The odds of DA'ing more than twice through the pole grip on DB (which is an impossibility), and the slightly less-than-2% increase in swings if you have brutal cancel out the increase in WS frequency, so say it's roughly 2%.
pDIF of 2: crit+3% now increases damage by 50% 3% of the time. Therefore: 1.5% increase in damage. The cutoff point is a pDIF of 1.5: 2% for both.

Carry claymore and pole grips, fin.

Also, I thought the pDIF graph was Araelus', my bad. Crit graph is mine, and the input came from critical hit tests from way back.

[Argettio]

Don't mystify meripos like they're not an artless and banal task. When should you WS in a meripo? When you have TP. See how simple it is?

I thought the same until it I saw done 'right', doesn't take much, but a little consideration goes a long way.

And for the record I don't demand /nin. Just in my experience, most people should, because they just aren't good enough to /sam.

[Ultimagi]

My question is if, despite not showing the lower bar, the bonus to wyvern HP is actually applied in time. If not, I'd be better off triggering in a combo of HP+ gear and the wyvern HP+ gear, and only switching helms. But I'm curious what other people do for this. I'd rather get the benefits of lower triggering and higher breath healing but if it's not possible I'll change those.

This is just your user interface updating on an interval timer. Trust that your wyvern's HP on the server is updated immediately.

[Starr]

Yes, but that's saying every melee with a crit WS should use claymore. Obviously, none of them are, and it's got a reason.

What the fuck? The only 2 2handed jobs with a Crit WS that is good for them is DRG Drakesbane and WAR Raging Rush both of which can and a lot of people do make use of Claymore Grip.

[Kkel]

Only in merit and merit-like situations will the mob fall before Angon wears off.

Hmmm, I never realized that Bahamut and Dynamis Lord were both merit mobs.

I was kind of disheartened by the lack of any /mage mention since it's a huge aspect of DRG that sets it far apart from other melee jobs. I know a lot of old school DRGs like myself still prefer /WHM over /BLU, but both add such a unique dimension and possibilities to the job. It's been said already though, so no real need to go into it all again.

[Shinryuu]

What the fuck? The only 2 2handed jobs with a Crit WS that is good for them is DRG Drakesbane and WAR Raging Rush both of which can and a lot of people do make use of Claymore Grip.

There's also tons of NIN TPing in Kirin's Osode. Just use the 1.5 pDIF rule. It's not rocket science. For jobs without a crit WS, claymore is even worse.

Hmmm, I never realized that Bahamut and Dynamis Lord were both merit mobs.

As far as hitrate and pDIF goes, they pretty much are, due to ultra buffs. As far as dDEX for Drakes goes, not so much.

[Yugl]

Yes, but that's saying every melee with a crit WS should use claymore. Obviously, none of them are, and it's got a reason.

Ok, Claymore v. Pole. I've done this at least 3 times before, but whatever, I totally need to be more constructive.

pDIF of 1: crit +3% increases damage by 3% (100% damage increase from pDIF+1 on 3% of your swings: same for WS. Like, exactly the same, considering DRG doesn't have Mighty Strikes).
Pole increases damage by ~2% through an increase in swings, WS frequency, and WS damage. The odds of DA'ing more than twice through the pole grip on DB (which is an impossibility), and the slightly less-than-2% increase in swings if you have brutal cancel out the increase in WS frequency, so say it's roughly 2%.
pDIF of 2: crit+3% now increases damage by 50% 3% of the time. Therefore: 1.5% increase in damage. The cutoff point is a pDIF of 1.5: 2% for both.

Carry claymore and pole grips, fin.

Also, I thought the pDIF graph was Araelus', my bad. Crit graph is mine, and the input came from critical hit tests from way back.

I don't know if this changes your calculations, but he says to use Claymore in Drakesbane only situations. I assumed he meant WS only situations not TP gain situations.

Clentine, with it's Critical Hit Rate+3%, when paired with Claymore Grip and Zahak's Mail on Drakesbane, and only when using solely Drakesbane,

Grips:
There are only currently only 2 grips you should ever use, well it's really 1 and maybe the other very occasionally, they are Pole Strap which is awesome as not only does it give 2% more attacks, it increases WS frequency by 1.85%, and Claymore Grip only when combined with Clentine and using solely Drakesbane. Brave grip under no circumstance will outparse either of these grips, do not use it.

Edit: Now that I look at it, has anyone tried Brave Grip + SATA Wheeling? I know there aren't many SATA situations in this game, but it would be interesting to see.

[Panthera]

So you drg/blu's keeping cocoon up at all times in Greater Colibri Camps? telling me that it doesn't have a lengthy casting time on it?

It's not that Exp per hour > shadows, it's Exp per hour = shadows. A rdm isn't lazing for not wanting to cure bomb a /sam. They're lazy for not doing Dia II or III on every mob, sleeping the next pull should Lullaby fail, and hasting 3-4 melees, and Curing.

I recognize that Drgs/sams will have higher damage output and the mobs die faster, but the epeening Drg/sam will die faster as well for lack of defense. If someone told you they didn't have Utsusemi: Ni, would you PT with them? They only had Ichi, and get this, for whatever reason, it doesn't overwrite itself. Doing damage to the mob is only 50% of the fight. It doing damage to you is the other 50%.

The fact is, when i ask someone to change to /nin, they will do so because they just want a party. Few people turn down a Bard/nin (me) when there's ten other melees seeking. Who's getting more exp hour, the humble Drg/nin who's willing to compromise, or the proud Drg/sam who's standing around in Whitegate? Take a look at the Ridill War/nin, the Ranger, the Black Belt Monk seeking, and tell me you'll decline based on a subjob.

great troll or greatest troll

/blush. You give me too much credit, sir. Now if anyone needs me, i'll be in Halvung with mah hommies. If you need the title "Troll Subjugator" for the quest "an Imperial Heist" for your mythic weapon, i'm feeling less spammy today.

[Zekyr]

Quick question from what someone said about "not halfassing crit or str" on drakes, if you're not building a WS build around crits is zahak's usefulness dropped dramatically compared to heca? I already have heca (no aurum) and was planning on using it until I could get zahak's on drakes but wans't planning the whole cletine/claymore/lotsoDEX thing. In that case, would heca stay better or not?

[Zekyr]

Who's getting more exp hour, the humble Drg/nin who's willing to compromise, or the proud Drg/sam who's standing around in Whitegate? Take a look at the Ridill War/nin, the Ranger, the Black Belt Monk seeking, and tell me you'll decline based on a subjob.

Probably the drg/sam who doesn't need to look for party and goes with a competent LS party none of which are subbing ninja and have a rdm/brd/cor who are more than happy to join his party for disgusting exp/hr, but hey maybe that's just my LS. Also, most wars sub sam rather than use ridill in merits, most rngs sub sam, and most mnks sub war. Otherwise, they're slowing killspeed down and causing the party to take more damage, at least in the merits parties my LS makes. But hey, if you're happy with the subpar exp/hr a full set of /nin DDs give you, more power to you man, some of us aren't.

EDIT: When I said "none of which are subbing ninja", I'm partially wrong, the bard usually does. :V

[Killkenny]

I recognize that Drgs/sams will have higher damage output and the mobs die faster, but the epeening Drg/sam will die faster as well for lack of defense. If someone told you they didn't have Utsusemi: Ni, would you PT with them? They only had Ichi, and get this, for whatever reason, it doesn't overwrite itself. Doing damage to the mob is only 50% of the fight. It doing damage to you is the other 50%.

The fact is, when i ask someone to change to /nin, they will do so because they just want a party. Few people turn down a Bard/nin (me) when there's ten other melees seeking. Who's getting more exp hour, the humble Drg/nin who's willing to compromise, or the proud Drg/sam who's standing around in Whitegate? Take a look at the Ridill War/nin, the Ranger, the Black Belt Monk seeking, and tell me you'll decline based on a subjob.

No you've got it wrong, the mob doing damange to you isn't 50%. The limiting factor is your rdm, a good rdm can support 3 fulltime hasso melees at bird camp if they are killing fast.

Those parties where you have to sub /nin generally aren't good parties, and if you are that desperate for exp you can always kill 2 birds with one stone and do some campaign.

Not even going to get into the debate of seigan vs utsusemi on birds because you've already got the mentality that /nin is the only way you can ever hope to survive those brutish birds and their array of extremely damaging tp moves which in no way favour third eye.

[Yugl]

So you drg/blu's keeping cocoon up at all times in Greater Colibri Camps? telling me that it doesn't have a lengthy casting time on it?

I use /RDM for faster cures. Cocoon spamming ultimately serves no purpose since the only way for mobs to one shot you from half HP would be if a member had Berserk up.

It's not that Exp per hour > shadows, it's Exp per hour = shadows. A rdm isn't lazing for not wanting to cure bomb a /sam. They're lazy for not doing Dia II or III on every mob, sleeping the next pull should Lullaby fail, and hasting 3-4 melees, and Curing.

You're right, XP/Hr = Shadows since crappy playing style = crappy XP. If massive cures are necessary to keep up a /SAM DD TP Burn PT, then you're probably playing with lackluster DDs or a lackluster healer. TP Burn PTs where the DDs are /SAM shouldn't need much healing due to the rate at which they kill mobs compared to /NIN PTs. There is a huge disparity between the damage output of a DRG/NIN and DRG/SAM.

I recognize that Drgs/sams will have higher damage output and the mobs die faster, but the epeening Drg/sam will die faster as well for lack of defense. If someone told you they didn't have Utsusemi: Ni, would you PT with them? They only had Ichi, and get this, for whatever reason, it doesn't overwrite itself. Doing damage to the mob is only 50% of the fight. It doing damage to you is the other 50%.

I would ask them why the hell they're telling me they don't have NI, then I would tell them to /SAM or gtfo. The faster your kills the less damage you take. You seem to forget there is an inverse relationship at work. For DRG/mage PTs, damage taken in inconsequential because our cures are cheap. As mentioned earlier, Berserk melees would be the only way for a bird to one shot a melee from 50% HP (Possibly Tarus as well). Even if that's a problem, just make sure the melees Seigan before their WS. However, in my experience as a DRG healer, I've never run into such a problem.

The fact is, when i ask someone to change to /nin, they will do so because they just want a party. Few people turn down a Bard/nin (me) when there's ten other melees seeking. Who's getting more exp hour, the humble Drg/nin who's willing to compromise, or the proud Drg/sam who's standing around in Whitegate? Take a look at the Ridill War/nin, the Ranger, the Black Belt Monk seeking, and tell me you'll decline based on a subjob.

So what you're saying is, you take advantage of your position as a BRD in order to intentionally reduce your PT's XP/hr.

Edit: Perdu G Axe WAR/SAM > Ridill WAR/NIN if I remember correctly.

[Starr]

Edit: Perdu G Axe WAR/SAM > Ridill WAR/NIN if I remember correctly.

Before I got Ebody and a couple other things I got outparsed 46% to 45% by a Maneater/Ridill using Ares Cuirass and Sushi+1 on Mamool Ja Staging point with DNC doing 9% total damage. Double March, Double Minuet and 10% Haste from DNC were the buffs, you can't say for sure one is always greater than the other.

[Panthera]

Chill guys.

My point here is you don't need /sam anymore than you need /war or /thf or any other sub to be able to clear out the bottom floor and whatever you can and from the middle camp (or vice versa), with only 1 colibri up at a time. Greater Colibri are not so strong defensively that you need the stat boosts from sam. Not with the gear and food that you've outlined, provided you party with a bard or cor. I never party without one, do you?

I had a Ridill War do that /sam stuff in another area. He got his face smashed in, and he quickly changed to /nin of his own accord. Not to mention the hate the rdm is getting from having to spam Cure IV to a Dragoon with something to prove. Recall the interview with our JP player counterparts? They specifically said stop subbing samurai. They tend to play more conservative setups and playstyle. I'm not alone on this one.

My opinion is that /nin is not as strong agressively, but good enough to get the job done, and much better defensively. It's just an opinion, just as /sam or /mage is yours, and you're entitled to it. Only a parser with the same players using the same gear, partying for the same amount of time, trying one out with /sam, and one with /nin can say as a fact which is sufficiently superior in terms of exp per hour to call one gimp GIVEN the following bottleneck:...

The real bottleneck to Nyzul Isle > Bhaflau Thickets is there's just not enough pops in the bottom or middle camp by themselves, so middle and bottom camps parties end up stealing from one another. And that's a fact, whether you're subbing /nin or /sam.

Peace.

[Yugl]

Greater Colibri are not so strong defensively that you need the stat boosts from sam.

Sub SAM makes you kill faster, it doesn't really do much against high DEF aside from the STR.

I had a Ridill War do that /sam stuff in another area. He got his face smashed in, and he quickly changed to /nin of his own accord.

Learn to be defensive? I can accomplish the same results with sub NIN if I choose to ignore recasting Utsusemi.

Not to mention the hate the rdm is getting from having to spam Cure IV to a Dragoon with something to prove.

If a DRG is doing enough damage, hate from cures should never be a problem.

Recall the interview with our JP player counterparts? They specifically said stop subbing samurai. They tend to play more conservative setups and playstyle. I'm not alone on this one.

We recognize that people will agree with you, but as we have said, for optimal damage and performance, sub SAM is best. I hope you're not using the JP's reference just because they're JP. I think that with PW we've proven the NA base to be just as good as the JP base.

My opinion is that /nin is not as strong agressively, but good enough to get the job done, and much better defensively. It's just an opinion, just as /sam or /mage is yours, and you're entitled to it. Only a parser with the same players using the same gear, partying for the same amount of time, trying one out with /sam, and one with /nin can say as a fact which is sufficiently superior in terms of exp per hour to call one gimp GIVEN the following bottleneck:...

The real bottleneck to Nyzul Isle > Bhaflau Thickets is there's just not enough pops in the bottom or middle camp by themselves, so middle and bottom camps parties end up stealing from one another. And that's a fact, whether you're subbing /nin or /sam.

Peace.

The situation you described favors /SAM since /SAM kills *faster* than /NIN. Regardless of the fact that /NIN is capable of clearing both floors, /SAM gives you a competitive advantage.

[Killkenny]

Chill guys.

My point here is you don't need /sam anymore than you need /war or /thf or any other sub to be able to clear out the bottom floor and whatever you can and from the middle camp (or vice versa), with only 1 colibri up at a time. Greater Colibri are not so strong defensively that you need the stat boosts from sam. Not with the gear and food that you've outlined, provided you party with a bard or cor. I never party without one, do you?

No you don't need /sam to clear out the colibri on the lower level, but I've done that with 4 people easily enough not using any relics, just well equipped people. Clearing the colibris in bottom camp will yield less than 20k/hr (I don't remember how many pops there are but you can easily work out your exp/hr killing x number of pops), its possible to get higher exp/hr killing wirves, or going to mamool ja staging point and camping in middle.

Also colibri are not so offensively strong that there is any reason to sub nin other than a bad mage or poorly equipped melees killing too slow.

I had a Ridill War do that /sam stuff in another area. He got his face smashed in, and he quickly changed to /nin of his own accord. Not to mention the hate the rdm is getting from having to spam Cure IV to a Dragoon with something to prove. Recall the interview with our JP player counterparts? They specifically said stop subbing samurai. They tend to play more conservative setups and playstyle. I'm not alone on this one.

I myself am a ridill war and whilst it had some novelty value I tend to use GA even on the occasions it is actually required I sub nin (NB not merits). Ridill is for zerging on drk when you can't afford the better options and maybe for soloing /dnc or farming.

If the mobs are lasting long enough that the rdm has time to pull hate you're already doing it wrong, merit mobs should last 10-30 seconds in a good party depending on the mob and whether people have tp when they engage.

Who the fuck cares what the JP community thinks, maybe as little as even 3 years ago the jp cocksucking still existed but now the NA community is almost always the first to achieve what is still left to. Playing conservatively is the same as admitting you are getting inferior exp/hr, just sounds like lazy mages who shit a brick when they drop below 600mp or actually have to convert when its ready.

My opinion is that /nin is not as strong agressively, but good enough to get the job done, and much better defensively. It's just an opinion, just as /sam or /mage is yours, and you're entitled to it. Only a parser with the same players using the same gear, partying for the same amount of time, trying one out with /sam, and one with /nin can say as a fact which is sufficiently superior in terms of exp per hour to call one gimp GIVEN the following bottleneck:...

Yes /nin will get the job done, but arguing it is somehow superior is retarded, why play defensively when there is scope to play more offensively.

The real bottleneck to Nyzul Isle > Bhaflau Thickets is there's just not enough pops in the bottom or middle camp by themselves, so middle and bottom camps parties end up stealing from one another. And that's a fact, whether you're subbing /nin or /sam.

There are wirves there also, and I'm sure you poked one once, lost the chain and vowed never to do it again.

[Marcicus]

NAs are pretty much superior than JPs when it comes to this game anyway amirite?

[Starr]

Panthera fucked my thread up