RDM/NIN Tanking

[Ruuz]

congrats?

You're my hero! Screw avesta, people should be bowing to Rog.

[rog]

You're my hero! Screw avesta, people should be bowing to Rog.

so like, i totally can't tell if this is just some kind of odd joke...

[Ruuz]

so like, i totally can't tell if this is just some kind of odd joke...

It's a bit excessive, but not a joke.

[rog]

i find this a little creepy.

[Ruuz]

Dont worry, you'll get used to it.

[Max™]

Atonement in full +Enm is the pretty much the best way to generate CE on Pld aside from curecheating.

I like to do this, since my Cure 3 is one button no blinking, and my C4 takes a full equip/unequip of visible slots currently:
Flash
Cure 3
Atonement for 350~400 Dmg
Keep poking away with the Joytoy, because contrary to what you may hear said, you DO get worthwhile amounts of CE for every poke and stab over 0 Dmg, especially when hasted/marched.

That's why Pld/Rdm is so fun where it's viable, Flash, Dispel, Blind, Atonement and up the hate list you go!

[Vyrr]

Belkin has some good RDM/NIN solo guides on his LiveJournal. Sky and sea soloing is mainly what it centers around.

If that's not what you're looking into, then my bad, because I didn't take the time to read your actual post.

[Ruuz]

Or you could visit the master.

[Raineer]

Restraining order inc

[Ruuz]

Telescopes our outside the boundary.

[Ahlah]

Once RDM cap both CE and VE, it's near impossible for NIN/DRK and PLD/NIN to pull hate off them unless RDM take damage. A lot of players still prefer PLD tanks because capped enmity is not required in most HNM battles and PLD provide excellent survivability.

A very good exception is Tinnin which is very susceptible to elegy/slow and elemental nukes compared to other standard manaburn HNM such as Tiamat and Ouryu. RDM make an excellent tank since BLMs are allowed to deal more damage.

[Kaeko]

Once RDM cap both CE and VE, it's near impossible for NIN/DRK and PLD/NIN to pull hate off them unless RDM take damage. A lot of players still prefer PLD tanks because capped enmity is not required in most HNM battles and PLD provide excellent survivability.

A very good exception is Tinnin which is very susceptible to elegy/slow and elemental nukes compared to other standard manaburn HNM such as Tiamat and Ouryu. RDM make an excellent tank since BLMs are allowed to deal more damage.

If a player caps CE and VE, you can overtake hate by simply capping CE and VE yourself. This is why when a tank boasts "I can hold hate off any DD" it just means his DDs aren't that good - because they are unable to reach the hate cap.

It is impossible to 'hold hate' in any situation due to the cap being so reachable. A NIN/DRK for sure can hit hate cap on anything a RDM/NIN can. They both have strong CE generators. A RDM will cap CE faster in an ideal situation, but a NIN will follow suit shortly after. Once they both cap CE, they will simply alternate who has hate, given that they both maintain high VE.

PLD does have somewhat an issue generating VE. This problem was somewhat alleviated with Atonement and PLDs can now generate good CE using Atonement spam. However, on targets where you cannot constantly melee, I agree that PLD will not cap CE easily like NIN/DRK or RDM/NIN.

[Ahlah]

If a player caps CE and VE, you can overtake hate by simply capping CE and VE yourself. This is why when a tank boasts "I can hold hate off any DD" it just means his DDs aren't that good - because they are unable to reach the hate cap.

It is impossible to 'hold hate' in any situation due to the cap being so reachable. A NIN/DRK for sure can hit hate cap on anything a RDM/NIN can. They both have strong CE generators. A RDM will cap CE faster in an ideal situation, but a NIN will follow suit shortly after. Once they both cap CE, they will simply alternate who has hate, given that they both maintain high VE.

PLD does have somewhat an issue generating VE. This problem was somewhat alleviated with Atonement and PLDs can now generate good CE using Atonement spam. However, on targets where you cannot constantly melee, I agree that PLD will not cap CE easily like NIN/DRK or RDM/NIN.

Even if all 3 jobs have capped CE and VE RDM still beat NIN and PLD because RDM can generate consistent VE and cast shadow significantly faster than PLD and NIN. If HNM uses a TP move RDM will lose less CE compared to NIN and PLD thanks to Stoneskin. Since NIN/DRK is unable to effectively evade most HNM hits and the alliance is not fighting HNMs that strip shadow faster than RDM can put them up with capped haste gear.

[Kaeko]

Even if all 3 jobs have capped CE and VE RDM still beat NIN and PLD because RDM can generate consistent VE and cast shadow significantly faster than PLD and NIN. If HNM uses a TP move RDM will loose less CE compared to NIN and PLD thanks to Stoneskin. Since NIN/DRK is unable to effectively evade most HNM hits and the alliance is not fighting HNMs that strip shadow faster than RDM can put them up with capped haste gear.

RDM cannot generate faster VE than PLD and NIN.

In fact, one of the more difficult aspects of RDM tanking is constant VE generation. PLD generates VE significantly easier and can cap 10,000VE without 2hr or JAs in about 15 seconds. If you add JAs, it's like 5-6 seconds, if you add 2hr, it's like 2 seconds. There is no way to compare VE generation of PLD to RDM. NIN also has easier time with VE, simply because it has access to stun. RDM's highest VE generators are Bind and Blind at 640VE. In addition the other 2 tanking jobs generally can field better enmity sets.

With regards to the "loss of CE" is less on RDM, this is about damage reduction. PLD is going to win in damage reduction in higher end HNM tanking. Shield Block and moves like Reprasial significantly reduce the amount of damage taken on PLD. In fact, in your earlier argument you even state people like PLD because it has higher survivability!

I'm a fan of RDM tanking too but it's not as good as you make it sound... Most HNMs can be tanked by any of the 3 typical tanking styles and all 3 have their own little special advantages. 1 is not far and away better than the other 2.

[Ahlah]

PLD excels in generating spike VE, not consistent VE. As you know each blind/bind generate 600 VE (iirc). Once both CE and VE are capped, all 3 jobs will only lose VE when shadow absorbs damage. PLD who exhausted all their JA/spell are limited by recast cooldown whereas a properly geared RDM can pretty much spam those 2 spells nonstop. I think only NIN/DRK with capped haste and Yagrush WHM can keep up.

As for TP moves, PLD do not have significant advantage compared to NIN and RDM, esp. against magic based TP moves. Also you can't predict when HNM is going to use next TP moves.

Most LS prefer PLD tanks because there are quite a significant number of HNMs (esp post COP) cannot be safely tanked with capped haste gear. When shadow is down, PLD are more likely to survive direct hits with the help of sentinel/shield block/reprisal.

Simply put if RDM is able to keep shadow up without taking a single hit, there is a very small window when NIN/DRK and PLD can pull hate off the RDM - right after RDM loses a shadow and before he/she casts the next blind or bind.

[Kaeko]

PLD excels in generating spike VE, not consistent VE. As you know each blind/bind generate 600 VE (iirc). Once both CE and VE are capped, all 3 jobs will only lose VE when shadow absorbs damage. PLD who exhausted all their JA/spell are limited by recast cooldown whereas a properly geared RDM can pretty much spam those 2 spells nonstop. I think only NIN/DRK with capped haste and Yagrush WHM can keep up.

As for TP moves, PLD do not have significant advantage compared to NIN and RDM, esp. against magic based TP moves. Also you can't predict when HNM is going to use next TP moves.

Most LS prefer PLD tanks because there are quite a significant number of HNMs (esp post COP) cannot be safely tanked with capped haste gear. When shadow is down, PLD are more likely to survive direct hits with the help of sentinel/shield block/reprisal.

Simply put if RDM is able to keep shadow up without taking a single hit, there is a very small window when NIN/DRK and PLD can pull hate off the RDM - right after RDM loses a shadow and before he/she casts the next blind or bind.

(Bold, Red Statement is incorrect)

Uh, VE decays at -60VE/sec. Shadow loss causes CE loss.

You have to keep spamming or VE will decay on its own without you doing anything. This is why if you are 'capped' on hate someone else can rip hate off you if you perform an action that caps hate themselves - if 2 players perform actions that 'cap hate', the person who did it most recently has undergone less VE decay and hence will have higher overall CE+VE.

Also, you mention Yagrush WHM as one of the only things that can 'keep up'... when you've reach the caps, you just need to spam enough VE to recap yourself. It doesn't matter how much VE you generate as long as it recaps. For instance, if a RDM and PLD are both at 9500 VE, a RDM using Blind vs. a PLD using 2hr is the same thing - a 10,000 VE result due to cap. So you don't need extremely high VE to reapply the VE cap, you just need to spam at a high frequency. This is why RDM is even able to maintain its VE cap without a high VE ability. High VE values will help you cap quicker. After it is capped, it is about frequency.

Then when you mention strength of VE generation... it is absolutely off base to not include PLD, but include RDM in a debate about who gains VE quickest. A PLD gains VE so quickly it's ridiculous. Simply using Sentinel + Flash + Cure IV + Atonement practically caps your VE. It takes RDM much longer to reach 10,000 VE, even using Chainspell.

No offense, but I think you're somewhat confused on what affects CE and VE.

[Ahlah]

(Bold, Red Statement is incorrect)

Uh, VE decays at -60VE/sec. Shadow loss causes CE loss.

You have to keep spamming or VE will decay on its own with you doing anything. This is why if you are 'capped' on hate someone else can rip hate off you if you perform an action that caps hate themselves - if 2 players perform actions that 'cap hate', the person who did it most recently has undergone less VE decay and hence will have higher overall CE+VE.

No offense, but I think you're somewhat confused on what affects CE and VE.

Yes I do know about the VE decay. It doesn't change the result either way. Over time, PLD is lacking behind RDM since the latter can consistently generate VE with low cost spells such as Blind/Bind. Shadow loss actually causes CE loss which can be easily replenished with a simple sleep/sleepII since it generate both CE and VE, whereas PLD will have to rely on flash and Cure cheat.

Overall RDM is more likely to keep both CE and VE capped than NIN/DRK and PLD, which is not important in many HNM fights because HNM typically take less physical/magical damage and it's unlikely that your DD jobs are able to hit the hate cap and survivability plays an important role here. Tinnin is a good example when capped enmity actually matters because it rarely resists elemental nuke from well geared BLMs and highly susceptible to elegy/slow/paralyzed. Try both RDM and PLD tanks you can easily see the difference.

Just because PLD can hit VE cap fast doesn't mean the job is capable of maintaining capped VE since all PLD spells/JAs are limited by recast cooldown. To do so PLD will have to cast something, perform a JA that generates VE or deal damage with sword every few seconds.

In theory, Yagrush WHM should be able to generate 1.8k VE for casting aoe Paralyna(12mp)/poisona(8mp). Both spells have extremely short casting time and recast time which make Yagrush WHM the most powerful VE generators without 2hrs.

[Kaeko]

Yes I do know about the VE decay. It doesn't change the result either way. Over time, PLD is lacking behind RDM since the latter can consistently generate VE with low cost spells such as Blind/Bind. Shadow loss actually causes CE loss which can be easily replenished with a simple sleep/sleepII since it generate both CE and VE, whereas PLD will have to rely on flash and Cure cheat.

Overall RDM is more likely to keep both CE and VE capped than NIN/DRK and PLD, which is not important in many HNM fights because HNM typically take less physical/magical damage and it's unlikely that your DD jobs are able to hit the hate cap and survivability plays an important role here. Tinnin is a good example when capped enmity actually matters because it rarely resists elemental nuke from well geared BLMs and highly susceptible to elegy/slow/paralyzed. Try both RDM and PLD tanks you can easily see the difference.

Just because PLD can hit VE cap fast doesn't mean the job is capable of maintaining capped VE since all PLD spells/JAs are limited by recast cooldown. To do so PLD will have to cast something, perform a JA that generates VE or deal damage with sword every few seconds.

In theory, Yagrush WHM should be able to generate 1.8k VE for casting aoe Paralyna(12mp)/poisona(8mp). Both spells have extremely short casting time and recast time which make Yagrush WHM the most powerful VE generators without 2hrs.

Well now that we've corrected some of the more basic errors in your argument we can talk about more complex points. I'm not here to make anyone look bad, just to make sure the best information is out there. Now your argument has shifted from the strength of VE abilities (something which I've pointed out PLD does better than the other 2 typical tanks) to frequency, which is on the right track.

You are right in that at the cap or near the cap, you are looking to have the most frequent number of casts - basically to constantly recap VE as often as possible. Theoretically, RDM should have an easier time than PLD with this because it has lower recast timers and better MP efficiency on Blind. It should have the same ease as a NIN/DRK trying to do the same though. NIN/DRK and RDM cycle through roughly the same spells and since all these spam spells cast at a high speed, the fast cast differences are small at best. At this point it is about how often you cast, not what you cast. PLD lacks a large arsenal of spammables, which place it behind NIN and RDM, but RDM doesn't have a huge advantage over NIN in this situation - they both have lots of cheap, fast spammables.

To say RDM is superior in hate generation may be true in a very specific setting with a very specific mob, and a very perfect playstyle, but you can make the exact same argument for the other 2 tanking styles if you vary the situation slightly. I'm not trying to say RDM/NIN is inferior; I'm only trying to debate with you that it is not superior. In specific situations, yes, but overall, no. All 3 tanks excel in particular settings.

[Ahlah]

Well now that we've corrected some of the more basic errors in your argument we can talk about more complex points. I'm not here to make anyone look bad, just to make sure the best information is out there. Now your argument has shifted from the strength of VE abilities (something which I've pointed out PLD does better than the other 2 typical tanks) to frequency, which is on the right track.

The only "basic error" in my post is to do with VE loss associated with shadow loss and it's not even that important since we were trying to establish which job is likely to maintain max VE and CE.

I have read your previous posts in other threads Kaeko and I think you are slightly obsessed with numbers and kind of ingore the practicability of many job/spells you have tested or make suggestion on how to test them. For example, I noticed you have mentioned using enaero to test Death Blossom's MEVA effect on greater colibri. Not only it's a very tideous and time consuming method, the results are likely to have very little significance in practice, even if we somehow manage to determine the exact amount of MEVA. For example, elemental ninjitsu is said to lower elemerntal resist of the target mob by 30, yet we still don't know whether BRD or RDM are more likely to see less resistance when HNMs are debuffed with elemental ninjitsu. If you are going to invest your time it's better to test Death Blossom's effect directly on HNMs.

Well I didn't mean to hijack this thread, only mention it since my post count is still low. To OP: RDM/NIN is a decent tank job but PLD/NIN has become the universal tank job and works on pretty much all HNMs in this game. If you want to play RDM tank it's better to discuss with your LS first so that you won't get disappointed after putting in tons of effort to gear up RDM tank.

[Kaeko]

Always good to hear some criticism. I'll address each point individually since you sort of hit on a number of topics. Feel free to be as critical as you'd like towards me. You need something like 25 posts to post advanced anyways - at least you're getting 25 through a debate and not spam this way.

*********

1) "Mistakes"

Once RDM cap both CE and VE, it's near impossible for NIN/DRK and PLD/NIN to pull hate off them unless RDM take damage.

This is a fundamental error. One of the biggest points I've stressed with the enmity testing is that no matter what, you can always have hate ripped from you if someone else caps hate. To say it is 'near impossible' for NIN/DRK and PLD/NIN to pull hate off a RDM w/o damage is directly implying that NIN/DRK and PLD/NIN cannot cap hate.

Remember that any job can take hate from anyone else if they cap hate. So making this bold statement is implying other jobs cannot cap hate. I hope you realize and understand this is a poor statement to make - I think you understand that all 3 of these jobs can reach hate cap, quite easily. If you want to debate 'frequency' that is another story. "Near impossible" to cap is misleading though.

Just because PLD can hit VE cap fast doesn't mean the job is capable of maintaining capped VE since all PLD spells/JAs are limited by recast cooldown.

Remember any action recaps VE once you are at the cap assuming you can spam fast enough. For example, even spamming a low VE move like Poison only has to be once every 5 seconds to maintain VE cap. So PLD 'maintains' VE fine with basic actions like Flash and "cure cheats" as you call them, he just can't spam them as often. This is an issue of frequency of recap, not the ability to recap. I sense this is somewhat a semantics argument though. PLD overall maintains VE just fine though and if you had a PLD/NIN cotanking with a RDM/NIN, the PLD would 'take hate' every action. The RDM would retake hate every action, too, so it just comes down to frequency.

Once both CE and VE are capped, all 3 jobs will only lose VE when shadow absorbs damage.

Already admitted by you. This is a huge, huge error though. "Only lose VE when shadows absorbs damage" implies no decay, which is the only thing that even affects VE period... Not understanding this concept alone would kill any chance of someone understanding how hate in this game works.

Really I'm probably being an asshole for requoting you but forgive me for trying to win an argument When someone challenges your knowledge on a topic you essentially discovered/invented, you're going to fight over it.

*********

2) "Obsession with numbers" / Death Blossom Testing

I have read your previous posts in other threads Kaeko and I think you are slightly obsessed with numbers and kind of ingore the practicability of many job/spells you have tested or make suggestion on how to test them. For example, I noticed you have mentioned using enaero to test Death Blossom's MEVA effect on greater colibri. Not only it's a very tideous and time consuming method, the results are likely to have very little significance in practice, even if we somehow manage to determine the exact amount of MEVA. For example, elemental ninjitsu is said to lower elemerntal resist of the target mob by 30, yet we still don't know whether BRD or RDM are more likely to see less resistance when HNMs are debuffed with elemental ninjitsu. If you are going to invest your time it's better to test Death Blossom's effect directly on HNMs.

This quote I have to admit I can't really reach a middle ground with you on. On the Enmity stuff, I think we can argue it down to semantics and agree on 99% of things in the end (honestly we probably did after just 3-4 posts), but not this. You are basically advocating that the most useful tests are done on the mobs intended for the test to be used on...

This is without a doubt, the exact OPPOSITE of how you would begin a test on something - whether it be video game mechanics, medicinal treatments, physics, biology, etc. When you are unsure of the fundamentals underlying something, you start simple because you can control more variables. My entire enmity testing was based on lvl-1 Mandragoras for instance. All this argument over enmity mechanics on HNM fights you and I are debating is about data from lvl-1 mobs! I never tested a thing on an "impossible to gauge mob". If you believe that a test on some random Colibri mobs has no 'significance' with regards to HNM, then the entire knowledge base of FFXI game mechanics will crumble before you. They were all tests on simple mobs - from fTP, to enmity, what little we do know about MACC, BLU spell mods, etc.

Simply put, 'game mechanics' are things that apply to everything in the game. They are fundamental and can be extracted from basic sources and applied to complex scenarios. "How MACC and MEVA work" is a fundamental game mechanic - one of the few still unknown by the playbase. When you know so little, you start simple. Find the absolute easiest control scenario with the absolute easiest data collection process. The colibri suggestion I made is an example of that.

If you try to collect basic data on an HNM, there is so much shit flying around you can't tell what is going on. You don't know the mob's resistance traits, what everyone else is doing to affect it, and most of all, you cant generate a large trial number! I don't know what kind of LS you're in, but if you are in a LS that would let you dick around testing MACC for 10,000+ trials on an HNM, please tell me your server and LS and I'll join in a heartbeat; because the average HNM LS would laugh at the suggestion.

MACC and MEVA testing require probability and statistical analysis. This requires MASSIVE trial numbers. We're talking in the realm of 10,000+ minimum probably. You mention my methods being tedious... It is tedious, not because I suggested a bad testing method, but because that's the nature of statistical analysis... There's no way around it. The method I suggested attempts to alleviate as much of the tediousness as possible. If you're someone who's happy with someone 'testing' something 5 times on Khimaira and deeming DB good or useless, then we're just looking for 2 different things in general.

*********

3) My "lack of practical application"

I have read your previous posts in other threads Kaeko and I think you are slightly obsessed with numbers and kind of ingore the practicability of many job/spells you have tested or make suggestion on how to test them.

Well I'm always open to criticism but I'll have to disagree with you here (not surprising). I'm an engineer at heart. I don't test stuff for the sake of testing it - I test it with the hopes of later applying that knowledge in practice. I have a strong knowledge of testing procedure, which I already talked about in #2 and will disagree with you on your idea of a 'good test' pretty much 100%, but ultimately I am about application. I think my and my LS's record speaks for itself in terms of application. I am not some guy that plays with a calculator all day doing FFXI formulas and has never seen anything in this game past NQ behemoth. I've seen it all, killed it all sans PW, and died to it all.

Really I think this comment stems from you disagreeing with the way I suggest others to test things, not a personal attack on me or anything. Though I must say if you disagree with the fundamental method of how I suggest others go about testing game mechanics, you're disagreeing with every nearly single person that has ever contributed to FFXI game mechanics. We all start simple and go complex.


TL;DR Version:
1) Normal Enmity / Tanking Arguments, mostly semantics now, probably can end that argument with both sides pretty happy.
2) You think you test game mechanics via HNMs because it's more applicable. I strongly disagree.
3) You think I'm impractical sometimes and am too into numbers. I disagree and say I've done it all in this game sans PW and have a good understanding of the game in both mechanical terms and in experience.

To the OP:

Google Search Belkin's Livejournal.