RDM/NIN Tanking

[richardd]

nice reply kaeko.


i was always curious why i was able to hang with the other rdm/nins as a nin/drk almost better than when i was nin/rdm lol. and so easily too. i guess we both came to the cap and started switching off eachother.

i wish i had that parse saved with me and the rdm/nin tanking Ultima and me holding more hate while taking less dmg with a /rdm sub. The CE and VE spells of a nin these days are way too under rated. i hope more ninjas step it up now that me and ruke are gone lol. i know haka is doing it good! taru ftw?!

[Ahlah]

It's not wrong to say than once both CE and VE are capped, NIN/DRK and PLD/NIN can't pull hate off RDM. Because all 3 jobs are subject to the same VE decay (which is why I didn't include it in my initial argument), in other word, VE decay has nothing to do with which job will be able to hold hate better directly. The only difference is the CE loss from shadow loss. The key of holding hate is being able to keep both CE and VE as high as possible all the time (i.e. recapping hate). Unless PLD is able to deal damage with his/her sword it's likely that PLD will be working on a VE level that fluctuants periodically whereas RDM will be able to recap VE after every Blind/Bind, and we are not even talking about shadow's CE loss.

I am not sure whether we should discuss Death Blossom test here. I will just quickily go through it.

Target mob: Tiamat (lands and flies on 2 minute interval)
RDM/NIN should build TP on DC antlion and use DB on Tiamat right before she starts lifting off the ground. BLMs are asked to record their nukes before and after magic evasion effect wears off.

BLM nukes have fairly high resist rate on Wyrms, we are looking at min 30-40% partial or complete resist even for well geared BLMs. To make DB worthwile BLM should experience significant improvement in resist rate. A small increment does not justify RDM taking up a spot in the alliance since you can easily replace the melee RDM with another BLM. As you can see we don't even need to know the actual amout of DB's MEVA.

i was always curious why i was able to hang with the other rdm/nins as a nin/drk almost better than when i was nin/rdm lol. and so easily too. i guess we both came to the cap and started switching off eachother.

i wish i had that parse saved with me and the rdm/nin tanking Ultima and me holding more hate while taking less dmg with a /rdm sub. The CE and VE spells of a nin these days are way too under rated. i hope more ninjas step it up now that me and ruke are gone lol. i know haka is doing it good! taru ftw?!

A basic endgame tanking strategy requires tanks to bounce hate with his/her co-tank. Hate management is really not a big issue in HNM fights all 3 jobs can generate sufficient hate to keep mob away from other party members. PLD shines as endgame tank because the job provides extra survivability compared to NIN/DRK and RDM/NIN.

[Ruuz]

Awesome post Kaeko.

[Kaeko]

It's not wrong to say than once both CE and VE are capped, NIN/DRK and PLD/NIN can't pull hate off RDM. Because all 3 jobs are subject to the same VE decay (which is why I didn't include it in my initial argument). The only difference is the CE loss from shadow loss. The key of holding hate is being able to keep both CE and VE capped all the time (i.e. recapping hate). Unless PLD is able to deal damage with his/her sword it's likely that PLD will be working on a VE level that fluctuants periodically whereas RDM will be able to recap VE after every Blind/Bind, and we are not even talking about shadow's CE loss.

Yes, all players are subject to the -60VE/sec decay. This is true. However, I think the confusion here lies in how the cap is applied. I'll give you a very simple, hypothetical example to hopefully illustrate the concept:

Assume:
Capped CE (10,000CE).
Both tanks are starting at 9,999 VE (1 VE from cap).
No +Enmity Equipment for simplicity.
Blind/Bind are 640 VE, Stun/Flash are 1280 VE, Cure 'cheat' 1940VE.
t=time in seconds.
Bolded player has hate.

t=0 | (RDM 10,000VE, PLD 09,999 VE) | RDM uses Blind
t=1 | (RDM 09,940VE, PLD 09,939 VE)
t=2 | (RDM 09,880VE, PLD 09,879 VE)
t=3 | (RDM 10,000VE, PLD 09,819 VE) | RDM uses Blind
t=4 | (RDM 09,940VE, PLD 09,759 VE)
t=5 | (RDM 09,880VE, PLD 10,000 VE) | PLD uses Flash
t=6 | (RDM 10,000VE, PLD 09,940 VE) | RDM uses Blind
t=7 | (RDM 09,940VE, PLD 09,880 VE)
t=8 | (RDM 09,880VE, PLD 10,000 VE) | PLD uses "Cure Cheat"
t=9 | (RDM 09,820VE, PLD 09,940 VE)
etc.

Notice that the player who most recently performed at action always has hate!

Because VE is capped, how much VE every action generates doesn't matter as long as it is able to reach 10,000VE. You don't get 'extra credit' for going over the cap, it just places you at 10,000VE. Decaying VE occurs with every player, but this SUPPORTS they idea that any job can take hate by capping VE, because at the instant that player caps with an action, VE decay has had no effect on him and he is truly at 'the hate cap' for that instant.

So basically in your argument, you claim RDM can't have hate pulled from him without CE loss. Very untrue. In fact, the RDM will have hate pulled from him EVERYTIME the other capped tank performs an action.

Once 2 tanks are at the hate cap, who has hate is based on who most recently performed an action to recap himself!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You don't seem to disagree with me when I say that all 3 tanks can reach the cap, albeit taking different amounts of time to reach CE and VE caps. If and when they do eventually reach it, the situation I outlined will predominate.

This is why I said the argument comes down to frequency of action. Because RDM and NIN/DRK have more spam tools than PLD, they produce more actions. Even though the PLD's individual actions grant higher VE, it's frequency that matters, not amount at this point. I suspect you know at least the basics of this concept though. This is where I think the problem really lies:

You seem to think that a PLD cannot recap hate without the aid of attacking or abilities and JAs. This is completely untrue. With simply Flash, a PLD can maintain hate cap. With reasonable Haste, a PLD can use Flash every ~25 seconds. After 25 seconds, 1500 VE has decayed. Simply using Flash with +18 Enmity (average PLD easily reaches this) will recap hate as a +18 enmity Flash grants 1518 VE. If the PLD did absolutely nothing but use Flash every 25 seconds, he would still maintain VE cap. Now, VE would certainly decay between those Flash casts, but he still maintains VE cap, it's just his action frequency is low so RDM will have hate most of the time by comparison. HE WILL HAVE HATE WHEN HE FLASHES THOUGH. HE STILL TAKES HATE EVERY MAJOR ACTION HE DOES.

TINY EDIT:
When I first found the caps, I found this property to be awkward. I had to test it myself with my testing partner Ashira where we both just spammed to hell some lvl-1 mob and it did work out this way. I then was able to study our own HNM fights looking for this property on easier mobs like Fafnir and it does work like this. In fact, Richardd in the post just before mine notes this property.

It looks good on paper but it works like this too in practice. This is a sign of good game mechanics testing: when you can predict what will happen in a situation you have never encountered before. This is the application of game mechanics.

To reiterate:
When 2 tanks are at 'hate cap', frequency matters at cap because the player that most recently performed an action will have hate. RDM will perform more actions more frequently than PLD, hence will have hate more often in ideal situations; however, when the PLD does do an action, he will still cap out, and hence have hate for the brief period after his action, but before the RDM does his next.

A PLD can pull hate off a RDM at cap. A RDM can pull hate off a PLD at cap. They will both do it every action they make. The RDM just performs more actions.

If this is still confusing to you, I'll try to illustrate it better. Just let me know.

*************************************

Target mob: Tiamat (lands and flies on 2 minute interval)
RDM/NIN should build TP on DC antlion and use DB on Tiamat right before she starts lifting off the ground. BLMs are asked to record their nukes before and after magic evasion effect wears off.

BLM nukes have fairly high resist rate on Wyrms, we are looking at min 30-40% partial or complete resist even for well geared BLMs. To make DB worthwile BLM should experience significant improvement in resist rate. A small increment does not justify RDM taking up a spot in the alliance since you can easily replace the melee RDM with another BLM. As you can see we don't even need to know the actual amout of DB's MEVA.

I'll just list this as a list of problems with this method:
1) Different BLMs have different skill, merits, INT, etc. and hence have different base resist rates on Tiamat. You would have to count each BLM as a separate test.
2) You have to make sure Threnody is either always or never applied.
3) You have to make sure they stop nuking or note exactly when DB ends. DB only lasts 1 minute
4) If you did this the entire fight for all 100,000 of Tiamat's HP, you would still only produce roughly 300 'attempts' You can't prove anything at 300 attempts statistically. Try 10,000. Hell, I'll even give you 3,000. That's 10 Tiamat fights with perfect procedure. This is if you have 1 BLM nuking the whole time. If you have multiple BLMs you must count each BLM separately, again, because they have their own base resists unless you have identical race, INT, gear, and merits.
5) Day/Weather possibly affects accuracy. We don't know yet so you must control for it. Fighting Tiamat on Thundersday? Have to just wait it out an hour?

I think the issue is you seem content on eye balling things and call it a day. That's fine for some people, but it's not 'testing game mechanics'. Ideally, you want to test on something simple, find the underlying principles behind it, and apply it to any mob as you see fit.

Eyeballing is fine for some types of tests, but not for anything that involves probabilities greater than 0% and less than 100%. For anything between those, you have to either rely on statistics or the game has to directly feed you information (e.g. how they test melee accuracy via 'check' command).

[Fridell]

Seriously, it is stupid to argue with Kaeko about this thing.

[Ahlah]

Assume:
Capped CE (10,000CE).
Both tanks are starting at 9,999 VE (1 VE from cap).
No +Enmity Equipment for simplicity.
Blind/Bind are 640 VE, Stun/Flash are 1280 VE, Cure 'cheat' 1940VE.
t=time in seconds.
Bolded player has hate.

t=0 | (RDM 10,000VE, PLD 09,999 VE) | RDM uses Blind
t=1 | (RDM 09,940VE, PLD 09,939 VE)
t=2 | (RDM 09,880VE, PLD 09,879 VE)
t=3 | (RDM 10,000VE, PLD 09,819 VE) | RDM uses Blind
t=4 | (RDM 09,940VE, PLD 09,759 VE)
t=5 | (RDM 09,880VE, PLD 10,000 VE) | PLD uses Flash
t=6 | (RDM 10,000VE, PLD 09,940 VE) | RDM uses Blind
t=7 | (RDM 09,940VE, PLD 09,880 VE)
t=8 | (RDM 09,880VE, PLD 10,000 VE) | PLD uses "Cure Cheat"
t=9 | (RDM 09,820VE, PLD 09,940 VE)
etc.

Notice that the player who most recently performed at action always has hate!

This is why I said you have the tendency to ignore practicability.

If you continue to work on the timeline, soon you will realise PLD will run out of spell/JAs to build VE while RDM will be able to continue spamming Blind/Bind. Also there seem to be a slight misunderstanding on how we define "holding hate". Just because PLD has slightly more VE immediately after casting Flash doesn't always mean the HNM will definitely hit the PLD, as long as RDM can sneak in another spell in time mob will still turn to RDM. This is why I said overall, RDM being able to cast spell faster and at cheaper price make it the best job at capping (or recapping according to your definite) both VE and CE.

Regarding Tiamat fight, I am sure after 100k damage, any BLM should be able to tell whether DB actually make a significant difference to their own damage output, it's unlikely for a melee RDM to convince their LS leader to sacrifice a slot in their alliance if the result cannot be "eyeballed". The exact amount of MEVA doesn't really matter because there is no difference between +30 magic accuracy and +60 magic accuracy if you can't even see the difference in a fight which involves a HNM with 100k HP.

[Kaeko]

I'll do this as a series of quotes and responses. I feel I've adequately responded to these in the previous post so I'll just re-highlight them. Sorry my responses are so long it's easy to miss out on some key points.

************************

Your Quote:

If you continue to work on the timeline, soon you will realise PLD will run out of spell/JAs to build VE while RDM will be able to continue spamming Blind/Bind.

From My Last Post:

You seem to think that a PLD cannot recap hate without the aid of attacking or abilities and JAs. This is completely untrue. With simply Flash, a PLD can maintain hate cap. With reasonable Haste, a PLD can use Flash every ~25 seconds. After 25 seconds, 1500 VE has decayed. Simply using Flash with +18 Enmity (average PLD easily reaches this) will recap hate as a +18 enmity Flash grants 1518 VE. If the PLD did absolutely nothing but use Flash every 25 seconds, he would still maintain VE cap. Now, VE would certainly decay between those Flash casts, but he still maintains VE cap, it's just his action frequency is low so RDM will have hate most of the time by comparison. HE WILL HAVE HATE WHEN HE FLASHES THOUGH. HE STILL TAKES HATE EVERY MAJOR ACTION HE DOES.

PLD can maintain cap with just Flash and a simple +18 Enmity (easy nowadays). He doesn't "run out". I think this point I quoted illustrates this amply as I show you can do it with just 1 spell rotated repeatedly.

************************

Your Quote:

Also there seem to be a slight misunderstanding on how we define "holding hate". Just because PLD has slightly more VE immediately after casting Flash doesn't always mean the HNM will definitely hit the PLD, as long as RDM can sneak in another spell in time mob will still turn to RDM.

From My Last Post:

Once 2 tanks are at the hate cap, who has hate is based on who most recently performed an action to recap himself!

I never said who the mob would hit, just who would have hate. Obviously if the mob attacks slowly, doing an action does not necessarily mean the mob will strike you back.

Though I must say a player can only spam a maximum number of 18 actions per minute. Try going outside and Chainspelling and see how many spells you can get off before it wears. It'll be 18. This is due to casting delay between spells. Because of this, you can't expect a RDM to always recoop his hate cap right after a PLD performs an action, if anything, simply because of this 'casting delay'.

Kind of ironic I should mention this fact since this is a practical issue where the paper equation doesn't fit, the very thing you have mentioned multiple times that I am incapable of doing since I love the paper formulas so much.

************************

Your Most Recent Quote:

This is why I said overall, RDM being able to cast spell faster and at cheaper price make it the best job at capping (or recapping according to your definite) both VE and CE.

If your original point was to say RDM is best at capping then well we actually agreed from the very beginning. But based on your original quote, which actually was the reason I even popped up in this thread, you can imagine why I would think otherwise.

Your Original Quote:

Once RDM cap both CE and VE, it's near impossible for NIN/DRK and PLD/NIN to pull hate off them unless RDM take damage.

It's hard for me to wrap my head around how this statement could possibly imply that you were talking about recapping hate. Especially since even the best job at recapping hate will still have hate stolen from them constantly by any other player who can cap hate (see other tanks like PLD and NIN/DRK)

************************

Your Quote:

Regarding Tiamat fight, I am sure after 100k damage, any BLM should be able to tell whether DB actually make a significant difference to their own damage output

See many paragraphs on eyeballing and how it is not an ample test of game mechanics when statistical analysis is required. I had once a Kirin fight where I landed 5 straight gravities on my BLM. Weird shit happens when you run limited trials. Also, in a normal Tiamat fight with ~3-4 BLMs you're only nuking like 50 times tops...

************************

Your Quote:

it's unlikely for a melee RDM to convince their LS leader to sacrifice a slot in their alliance if the result cannot be "eyeballed". The exact amount of MEVA doesn't really matter because there is no difference between +30 magic accuracy and +60 magic accuracy if you can't even see the difference in a fight which involves a HNM with 100k HP.

My Quote from Previous Post:

If you're someone who's happy with someone 'testing' something 5 times on Khimaira and deeming DB good or useless, then we're just looking for 2 different things in general.

Guess we're looking at 2 different things then right? I want to know how it works. You want to know if it's 'worth using' on X HNM. The original thread where this discussion was based on where I gave out the testing procedure was for figuring out 'HOW IT WORKS', so I still feel like you're arguing something completely different.

I want to know if it's 'worth using' too, but I want to do it by figuring out how the move works in general - game mechanics. You just want to eye ball it and make a judgment call, which I admit is probably easier considering what you want (is it worth using on X NM). Again, though, we want 2 different things...

(BTW I'm going to bed but I'll keep arguing with whatever you have to say tomorrow)

[Izildur]

good read as always xD must say from tanking on rdm/nin a bit

End of day Rdms are not "tanks" but can hold hate fine - its just "looks and feels" different to a Pld for everyone involved in the fight. Just remember your need more time at start to cap hate off

question - thinking out loud

Ive seen 3 (even 4 rdm/nin at tiamat) turn most HNMs into MUSH it works very well due to you balancing each other out so well and general self survivability - and in an ideal situation you want to spend close to equal time re-buffing/spamming hate so more rdms give you more space for this - is my thinking

shame more people around me don't want to seem to tank on rdm ;;

But you wouldn't really see more than 2 plds at most HNMs as its to much of a MP sink and the don't need that much space (ideally)

So why is it when ive tried to tank with 2 PLds it don't work so well .. like at best you will get hate for 15 % time if both Plds are so so (inc Aegis Plds) but if one of them knows how to hold hate really well your "tank" more like 2 % (even after CS) and turn more into a support healer with shadows

anyone help explain the maths for this ? * Cough Kaeko

[Ahlah]

Wow what time is it now? o.O sweet dream btw.

You seem to think that a PLD cannot recap hate without the aid of attacking or abilities and JAs. This is completely untrue. With simply Flash, a PLD can maintain hate cap. With reasonable Haste, a PLD can use Flash every ~25 seconds. After 25 seconds, 1500 VE has decayed. Simply using Flash with +18 Enmity (average PLD easily reaches this) will recap hate as a +18 enmity Flash grants 1518 VE. If the PLD did absolutely nothing but use Flash every 25 seconds, he would still maintain VE cap. Now, VE would certainly decay between those Flash casts, but he still maintains VE cap, it's just his action frequency is low so RDM will have hate most of the time by comparison. HE WILL HAVE HATE WHEN HE FLASHES THOUGH. HE STILL TAKES HATE EVERY MAJOR ACTION HE DOES.

What I am trying to say is PLD is unable to maintain capped VE. If PLD only uses Flash (without cure cheat, Atonement or any other JAs) every 25 sec, RDM will have mob's attention. As you correctly pointed out Flash's VE will decay over time whereas RDM will be spamming Blind/Bind to keep VE capped. Every time PLD recast Flash, it doesn't guarantee HNM will turn to PLD, esp. if the target mob hits slowly. In other word, for every 1 mins there is a small chance that PLD will be able to hold hate for 2 secs only if RDM doesn't cast spell before next hit after each flash. I don't know what you think about that, the PLD certainly doesn't sound like a tank job to me.

If both tanks are at the hate cap, who has hate is based on who most recently performed an action to recap himself!

If you mean who has the highest VE and CE, this statement is only true before PLD runs out of spells/JAs plus it has no practical relevance. For example, when fighting Tinnin, RDM/NIN will be able to keep both CE and VE capped (or near cap) by simply casting Blind/Bind every 2-3 secs and throw in occasional Sleep, which allows BLMs to nuke freely. PLD on the hands will not be able to maintain VE cap throughout the whole fight. RDM will make a much better tank than PLD because capped emnity actually matters in this case.

See many paragraphs on eyeballing and how it is not an ample test of game mechanics when statistical analysis is required. I had once a Kirin fight where I landed 5 straight gravities on my BLM. Weird shit happens when you run limited trials. Also, in a normal Tiamat fight with ~3-4 BLMs you're only nuking like 50 times tops...

I am sure if you can land gravity 50 times in a row on Kirin your LS will be impressed.

I do agree we seem to be looking at different things. I am just not sure if it's a good idea to try to determine the exact value of DB's MEVA. If I run a trial on statin I want to know whether it's going to lower the risk of heart attack, not how much it will lower my blood cholesterol level.

[fishstix]

I've never tried rdm/nin tanking, although I have done nin/drk in the past. Can anyone give suggestions on an event or hnm mob that I could try tanking? Something low risk (doesn't matter if I screw up and die), while still being impressive to tank still (not something like lolgenbu)

[Raineer]

What I am trying to say is PLD is unable to maintain capped VE.

Semantics..but...

No job can "maintain" capped VE. One tick goes by where the game has recalculated hate and some other job has capped hate and you didn't, and you lose hate. Even that RDM who is spamming spells like no tomorrow can't peg it 100%-infinitely. This is why two tanks with capped hate will bounce it, or why it is always possible to take hate off a tank as a DD if you cap yours.

I'm not sure why you assume in your post that the PLD doesn't get to use JA's or cure cheat. Tbh I don't get the whole negative stigma with "cure cheat" at all. Does someone here actually think it's cheating?

[Ahlah]

Semantics..but...

No job can "maintain" capped VE. One tick goes by where the game has recalculated hate and some other job has capped hate and you didn't, and you lose hate. Even that RDM who is spamming spells like no tomorrow can't peg it 100%-infinitely. This is why two tanks with capped hate will bounce it, or why it is always possible to take hate off a tank as a DD if you cap yours.

I'm not sure why you assume in your post that the PLD doesn't get to use JA's or cure cheat. Tbh I don't get the whole negative stigma with "cure cheat" at all. Does someone here actually think it's cheating?

Really depends on how you define capped VE. If you put a RDM/NIN and PLD/NIN in the same tank party, give both job permanent immunity to all forms of damage and ask both jobs to try their best to keep hate up, eventually PLD is going to lag behind. This is because RDM will be able to spam Blind/Bind continously and every 2-3 secs VE will hit the cap again. PLD do not have access to low mp cost hate spells and will run out of MP fast if they try to spam cure spells. Technically RDM will be able to keep VE capped or near capped all the time whereas PLD are limited by spell/JA cooldown, also everytime PLD cast a spell or use a JA there is still a possibility that target mob will not turn to PLD if RDM manage to land a spell before next hit. It will look as if target mob only shows interest in RDM tank.

If both tanks have capped hate it's really down to which tank can perform spell/JA more frequently (to recap VE). NIN/DRK can probably keep up but PLD/NIN will have to catch the small window to get mob's attention.

RDM is able to hold hate better than PLD and NIN if you actually push all 3 jobs to their max potential but in practice this is completely irrelevant because good tanks are supposed to bounce hate with their co-tanks and in many HNM battles they do not have to maintain capped emnity. Healers in tank party used to have major hate issue when PLD/WAR was the standard endgame tank and the introduction of /NIN completely changed the concept of endgame tanking.


I won't consider cure cheat as "cheating" but it's definitely not the most cost-effective hate spells. In fact, RDM tanks should never use Cure spells as hate tools. Only cast cures when RDM/co-tank take damage or right after convert.

[lolwut]

Already put this in Randomer thread, but figured this might be a better place to ask, since it's on topic.

In what order are dmg/mdmg mitigation buffs calculated?

Original Damage(including mcrit and weather bonus) > Resist > MDB/Shell > MDT > Phalanx > Actual dmg taken?

Does Stoneskin get applied after the defense boosts to absorb part of the final dmg?

Do physical attacks have a similar order, and does -pdt get calculated before or after Phalanx?

[Kaeko]

(POST MEANT FOR C&O)

What I am trying to say is PLD is unable to maintain capped VE. If PLD only uses Flash (without cure cheat, Atonement or any other JAs) every 25 sec, RDM will have mob's attention. As you correctly pointed out Flash's VE will decay over time whereas RDM will be spamming Blind/Bind to keep VE capped. Every time PLD recast Flash, it doesn't guarantee HNM will turn to PLD, esp. if the target mob hits slowly. In other word, for every 1 mins there is a small chance that PLD will be able to hold hate for 2 secs only if RDM doesn't cast spell before next hit after each flash. I don't know what you think about that, the PLD certainly doesn't sound like a tank job to me.

I'm going to go ahead and say we are having a semantics issue here. You even touch on this with Raineer. You're saying PLD 'cannot maintain capped VE' due to low frequency. I'm saying PLD has lower frequency but still caps VE when it uses a move like Flash. It's a definition of what capping VE is.

"Technically" what Raineer said is correct though. It's impossible to maintain capped VE spamming moves b/c of delay. VE is always constantly decreasing so you're really only at the 'cap' for the instant you cast that spell.

If you mean who has the highest VE and CE, this statement is only true before PLD runs out of spells/JAs plus it has no practical relevance. For example, when fighting Tinnin, RDM/NIN will be able to keep both CE and VE capped (or near cap) by simply casting Blind/Bind every 2-3 secs and throw in occasional Sleep, which allows BLMs to nuke freely. PLD on the hands will not be able to maintain VE cap throughout the whole fight. RDM will make a much better tank than PLD because capped emnity actually matters in this case.

You keep telling me I have no practical significance, but I have to be 100% honest with you, the situation we are even arguing about (capped CE, no damage taken, PLD cannot DD for hate, repeatedly maxing VE) almost never occurs. You can reach very close to this potential on a fight where damage can be fully blink tanked or eaten with Phalanx 2 like Tiamat in the air + fire resist, but this 'ideal' situation is never actually realized and there are confounding factors you take into account when analyzing a situation like that.

Basically, we are arguing about what fundamentally occurs in an ideal situation that never occurs in truest form in the endgame. And you're trying to say my argument is not practical, but it is an ideal situation that is meant to illustrate basic mechanics... It's like your teacher giving you 100 physics problems based on a roller-coaster to help you learn Conservation of Energy and you telling the professor this has no practicality.

This is more an issue of semantics that doesn't even have to do with RDM at this point. Overall, RDM looks great on paper and performs very well on tanking, but it's not as good as it looks on paper. PLD is better in practice than on paper; RDM is better on paper than in practice.

I do agree we seem to be looking at different things. I am just not sure if it's a good idea to try to determine the exact value of DB's MEVA. If I run a trial on statin I want to know whether it's going to lower the risk of heart attack, not how much it will lower my blood cholesterol level.

I'm not sure what you do for a living but how they actually came to advocate the group of drugs known as the Statins and their ability to lower heart attacks was by making a graph that correlates LDL ('bad' cholesterol) to incidence of heart attacks - very famous graph. They then proved that Statins were able to lower LDL. Clinical trials measured a person's LDL and looked for side-effects. It did not directly show lowered incidence of heart-attacks because that would have taken decades. They indirectly showed it, which just as scientifically sound.

When the Statins, most famous of which is Lipitor, passed the FDA by showing it lowered LDL through tests, then implied that this would lead to reduced heart attacks over time due to the correlation with the graph I mentioned previously. You measure 1 thing (LDL) as in indicator of another thing (heart attack incidence, the one you want). This is very, very, very fundamental to doing studies. You often are incapable of measuring directly what you want, so you must use indicators. You do NOT have to see something directly to pass muster.

My point here is you seem to think measuring something directly is the only/best way to go, when many/most things in our world (Vana'Diel and RL) are derived indirectly through fundamental concepts. This is the crux of our difference here. You don't have to measure something directly - in fact most of the time you don't because you cannot control the scenario! As odd is it is, the most reliable studies are via indirect links.

This is not an argument about MEVA, but about testing procedure, scientifically derived research, and analysis. I do not know your RL background in science or research, so I don't want to accidentally patronize your education. I will say that how I would go about testing MEVA mimics exactly how one would test things in real life. That's how the enmity testing was done, and that's why it is now almost universally accepted.

***********

Generally, I feel like we are just debating Semantics on enmity at this point. I don't really care to argue about that too much more simply because we're arguing about definitions and not concepts now (though I still honestly feel you miss out on a few of them, but we can agree to disagree).

It's OK to argue practicality vs. ideal 'paper' situations. I, again, do not know your background in tanking or endgame, but I feel pretty confident in debating with just about anyone in this game so I guess it doesn't matter, be it random poster or Rukenshin himself. My 'numbers' are always backed by use and practical application - and I've seen and used all 3 tanks over the years.

In the end though, arguing 'which tank is best for X' is like arguing is the E.Body blue or purple. People feel so strongly about it that it's impossible to change minds. This is why I feel I have a unique perspective on this because I have no bias towards a certain job - I have none of the 3 leveled.

Pleasure to argue with you and while I'm frustrated that I can't fully seem to convince you on things, I'll take the silver lining and say I've at least gotten you to admit 1 fault and the asshole/child in me will cling to that and count that as a win. Your criticisms are noted though.

[Kaeko]

good read as always xD must say from tanking on rdm/nin a bit

End of day Rdms are not "tanks" but can hold hate fine - its just "looks and feels" different to a Pld for everyone involved in the fight. Just remember your need more time at start to cap hate off

question - thinking out loud

Ive seen 3 (even 4 rdm/nin at tiamat) turn most HNMs into MUSH it works very well due to you balancing each other out so well and general self survivability - and in an ideal situation you want to spend close to equal time re-buffing/spamming hate so more rdms give you more space for this - is my thinking

shame more people around me don't want to seem to tank on rdm ;;

But you wouldn't really see more than 2 plds at most HNMs as its to much of a MP sink and the don't need that much space (ideally)

So why is it when ive tried to tank with 2 PLds it don't work so well .. like at best you will get hate for 15 % time if both Plds are so so (inc Aegis Plds) but if one of them knows how to hold hate really well your "tank" more like 2 % (even after CS) and turn more into a support healer with shadows

anyone help explain the maths for this ? * Cough Kaeko

I'm a bit confused as to your question. Are you talking about your RDM tanking with 2 PLDs? Or just 2 PLDs tanking something in general?

I THINK you are talking about your RDM tanking with PLD co-tanks and you being unable to gather more hate than them. If this is not the case, disregard what's below this sentence lol.

What C&O and I are arguing about is a very, very, VERY unorthodox situation that is virtually never seen in endgame where multiple non-DD based tanks hit the CE+VE cap. It is possible to come close to this on certain HNM fights, namely the mobs that attack ultra-slow, can be blink tanked 100%, and are TP limited via BLM or SMN damage, but it is really never realized outside of a controlled test. We're basically debating in an ideal situation, not a practical one to begin with - you always lose CE and you can't constantly use hate moves b/c you need defensive moves as well.

In reality, you will not constantly maintain CE cap on most fights. As someone that does fight strategy, you always attempt to strive for this, but it's rarely reached on any mob of medium + difficulty. When you are able to be in a situation where CE cap is attainable, that is where RDM tanking will shine, and that is the situation C&O and I are arguing in.

I don't know what you were fighting with the PLDs as your co-tanks, but I suspect it was a case where CE was not capped. This is often the case on mobs that deal reasonable damage to tanks. If you look at the damage taken formulas, you can lose an awful lot of CE via damage. For instant, if Tiamat gets 1 good critical on you for 600 damage on your RDM (say ~1200HP), that's -900CE right there - almost 3 dispels worth. That will add up in fights where the HNM can and will constantly damage you (e.g. Ixion). In situations where you cannot cap your CE, VE plays a larger role (obvious right?). It becomes VERY crucial to keep a maxed VE.

Don't like the arguments between C&O and I fool you. We are talking about the ideal situation of constant hate cap. If you fight something like Dark Ixion, it is very difficult for a RDM to spam Blind over and over unless he doesn't have hate. You have to run like every 10 seconds from lightning moves, keep your shadows up, etc. etc. This is why PLD plays better in practice than on paper - it has very high VE per 1 action. You throw on that Flash and you're good for like 15-20 seconds where you can focus on not getting yourself killed. A RDM has to constantly spam hate moves to keep up with VE because its highest VE generator doesn't even break 1000 VE. If it loses focus on this because of safety issues, it will lag behind quickly.

So to recap, RDMs have to be constantly active to maintain their caps. PLD and to a lesser extend for VE, NIN/DRK have higher hate moves (basically Flash/Stun are the big ones) in conjunction with generally better +enmity sets. They need LESS ACTIONS to gain the same amount of VE as a RDM. Less is better in this case because you want to spend as much time as possible worrying about safety on harder mobs. On easier stuff like Fafnir, you just blink tank it and you spend very little time on safety. In contrast, on Ixion, you are running constantly and must focus more time on safety over hate casts.

*******

PLD is the easiest job to play because of the high VE per action. You have to do less to get the same result. It's also by far the most intuitive tank job (probably the only one of the 3 SE actually intended to be used). I remember talking to Ryko and he said the enmity testing doesn't really change a thing about his PLD, which is pretty much true since the job is so intuitive you don't need a ton of numbers to tell you what to do - it's quite obvious.

RDM is like the complete antithesis to PLD style wise. It requires constant upkeep due to low VE per action, but has other benefits like high CE gaining moves like Dispel with strong CE/MP ratios. It's harder to max out in practical situations because of the low VE per action still though. You must constantly keep your actions high and if you lose focus on this to keep yourself alive you will lose some functionality. RDM tanking is the most technical and difficult of the 3 tanks imo. I would highly suggest anyone trying to max themselves out on this to learn as many 'tricks' as possible to improve performance. What C&O and I are arguing about won't help you too much to improve. I highly suggest Belkin's LJ as far as RDM tanking goes. There aren't as many good sources for learning this as say NIN/DRK, or PLD (which doesn't require much 'learning' imo).

NIN/DRK is a bit in the middle. It spams like a RDM would, has good CE gainers (Sleep really), but still has a nice VE gainer in Stun. I've found that this most excels on mobs that you can employ 'stun abuse' on, since Stun is inherently one of the strongest moves in the game. To have your tank spam it every 25 seconds, or hell even 2 NIN/DRKs spam it every 12 seconds makes a fight like Tiamat a breeze. I'm very big on "brain-dead" strategies where my entire LS can be at like 20% mental capacity and still win an HNM - NIN/DRK is great for this because of stun abuse. Makes Tiamat at 4AM bearable. I suspect SE got tired of stun abuse so post-CoP era stuff usually has building resists or full resist - but man, CoP-era and before, NIN/DRK cheese is amazing.

[Kaeko]

I've never tried rdm/nin tanking, although I have done nin/drk in the past. Can anyone give suggestions on an event or hnm mob that I could try tanking? Something low risk (doesn't matter if I screw up and die), while still being impressive to tank still (not something like lolgenbu)

RDM is most ideal is situations you fully blink tank or where the mob simply doesn't melee. Try Fafhogg, Tiamat (if you have the fire resist), Omega (very easy because it won't even double attack you), Ultima (another ideal RDM situation b/c of high MDB), or JoL.

CoP-era stuff is very RDM tank friendly.

[Belkin]

I feel like my LJ needs updated for the times. Maybe I'll rewrite it soon

[Izildur]

ok so answering my question

1. putting 3-4 rdm/nin on Tiamat for example must of worked so well due to allowing them to keep CE capped between them - as bouncing it around a lot and taking no/minimal dmg?
i could also imagine Tiamat in this fashion can become sleepy to tank vs the time i duo tanked him with me on rdm and a pld co?

2. regarding my co tanks being Plds - yes its a difficult one to sum up but to be fair i would be happier if more just wanted to come on rdm/nin for fun.

Take Cerb as an example:

I have done this a fair few times on rdm and it shines when your 2 PLds and dds take dmg and mages are not c4 spamming etc ... and i get a chance to land a cure or 2 myself then normally a blind/bind keep hate back on me and if i take any dmg a sleep dispel rotation and im back to a cure bind or blind - nice/easy hate bounce - all good

but how comes I've also done the fight where even after CS sleep II I've not lost more than a dozen sets of shadows all fight ... maybe doesn't help when the 2 Plds don't need curing idk and I mainly notice this when ive worked with one Pld who seems to solo tank a lot and the 2nd Pld acts as more an assister to them then and your then pushed into 3rd spot

Just trying to understand why this is so different and don't work well like my Rdms on Tiamat example. Yes its popular and sensible to have just 2 tanks on most HNMs don't get me wrong just trying to get my head around a few points xD

Also i think Omega has to be the most sleepiest mob to tank on Rdm - if people want something to try 1st

[Belkin]

Are the PLD's meleeing?

[Izildur]

yes but in both examples of me keeping hate and not getting any - spamming Atonment if they can.