RDM/NIN Tanking

[Belkin]

There is your problem. With the addition of Atonement, PLD's have been prompted to melee more than ever. And honestly, I think CE from straight damage is added on top of CE from spells like Sleep; although it has probably not been tested because all Kaeko's tests were done on Mandys.

PLDs with a good TP build who spam Atonement are something special. Although theoretically CE from RDM and PLD should be capped, I find that the Atonement spamming PLD has hate /way/ more often than the RDM. But like I said, I don't think extensive testing has been done looking at the difference between damage CE and spell CE, especially when the two are combined.

I'm just basing this statement off of first hand experience.

[Belkin]

Tiamat flies. Two minutes of not meleeing whilest taking damage = Enmity equaling out.

[Kaeko]

I've always assumed that the CE/VE you get from melee is just part of the same type you get from spells/abilities. I don't think I ever definitively showed that there's not some type of 3 enmity type related to damage dealt, so I suppose it's not out of the question.

Melee is a huge form of enmity gain as Belkin mentioned. This is why the Atonement version up upped PLD's hate holding abilities so much. PLD has some issues with CE gain from spells/abilities, and direct damage dealt is one of the best forms of CE gain you can get. To give you a number on a typical lvl88 HNM, a 750 damage atonement is 1000 CE / 3000 VE, WITHOUT enmity modifiers. That's a scary number. Add the fact that the Atonement damage is only based on your enmity and not gear and you can stack massive enmity+ gear in addition to this. Because of this, one of the best ways for a PLD to increase enmity is simply meleeing in something like a Joytoy. I've even heard of tanking builds which have some form of Acc in certain slots in increase the rate at which the PLD can fire Atonements.

Also, remember that normal swings add CE/VE too assuming it's doing some amount of damage. For instance, a PLD in a Joytoy still swings for like ~20 damage maybe on an HNM. That's roughly 80 VE a swing (w/o enmity gear), which nearly cancels out the VE decay, and certainly would with normal ~30ish enmity+. This is another reason why the situation I was debating C&O about is limited (to mobs you TP limit and don't melee on). RDM constantly recaps with spells, but if your PLD is meleeing, he's literally recapping every connecting hit, even with the low damage per hit.

[Belkin]

The other suspect as to why PLD can keep hate so long is what you mentioned

"he's literally recapping every connectiong hit"

So maybe if there isn't a third enmity type, this is the culprit.

[Ahlah]

Post is for Kaeko:

I'm going to go ahead and say we are having a semantics issue here. You even touch on this with Raineer. You're saying PLD 'cannot maintain capped VE' due to low frequency. I'm saying PLD has lower frequency but still caps VE when it uses a move like Flash. It's a definition of what capping VE is.

You keep telling me I have no practical significance, but I have to be 100% honest with you, the situation we are even arguing about (capped CE, no damage taken, PLD cannot DD for hate, repeatedly maxing VE) almost never occurs. You can reach very close to this potential on a fight where damage can be fully blink tanked or eaten with Phalanx 2 like Tiamat in the air + fire resist, but this 'ideal' situation is never actually realized and there are confounding factors you take into account when analyzing a situation like that.
I'm not sure what you do for a living but how they actually came to advocate the group of drugs known as the Statins and their ability to lower heart attacks was by making a graph that correlates LDL ('bad' cholesterol) to incidence of heart attacks - very famous graph. They then proved that Statins were able to lower LDL. Clinical trials measured a person's LDL and looked for side-effects. It did not directly show lowered incidence of heart-attacks because that would have taken decades. They indirectly showed it, which just as scientifically sound.

Capped emnity (or more correctly referred to as 'near capped') is not necessary in most HNM battles but it doesn't mean RDM can't actually maintain that sort of emnity in actual HNM fights. In fact it does make PLD look like a gimped tank in situation when capped emnity is required to keep mob away from DD. As I have already mentioned Tinnin is a perfect example, when DD jobs consistently deal large amount damage to the target mobs the only way tanks can hold hate is to keep both CE and VE near capped all the time. RDM/NIN and NIN/DRK tanks work a lot better than PLD/NIN in Tinnin fight.

RDM is not any better than PLD in Tiamat fight because Tiamat has very high resistance to elemental nukes plus BLMs typically only nuke when she is in the sky and they lose a large chunk of VE when Tiamat is not flying, i.e. capped emnity is not required to keep hate.

This is why I mentioned in my previous posts that despite being the best job (apart from Yagrush WHM) in holding hate, RDM is still not the most preferred tank job. In most stand HNM battles, capped emnity is not required, and survivability becomes an important factor when it comes to endgame tanking, that's why PLD has become the standard endgame tank job with extra survivability and spike hate tools which help them to take hate back after hate reset. Since PLD is more balanced than RDM in majority of the standard endgame events, it's important to discuss with your linkshell first before you start gearing up RDM tank so that you don't get disappointed when the LS leader tells you they don't want a RDM tank.

I am a qualified medical doctor. Since this is not a medical forum I will try to keep thing short. Statin is a group of drugs which reduce the risk of ischemic heart disease by lowering blood cholesterol levels. Measuring the level of lipids/cholesterol in your blood doesn't not tell us whether it will prevent heart attack. Even if statin lowers the bad cholesterol level by 50% it doesn't guarantee to drop the risk of heart attack. That's why medical studies should always focus on endresults or the so-called "desirable outcome". Measuring the exact values of Death Blossom's MEVA is like measuring your blood cholesterol/lipids level. It doesn't tell us whether DB is going to help RDM/BRD land debuffs or significanlty lower Tiamat's resistance to elemental nukes.

I guess the next question is can we establish the usefulness of Death Blossom with the data from one Tiamat fight? Majority of the medical studies are looking at a relatively small (but statistically significant) benefits which can only be picked up by properly conducted studies using a large samples and double controlled trials. Very rarely a study is terminated prematurely due to overwhelming evidence - either because all patients who already participated show significant benefits/adverse effects or negative results (such as death).

The only way LS will be convinced to bring a melee RDM to Tiamat fight is when DB actually make a huge impact to BLM's damage output. Unlike medical studies, we are not interested in a 20-30% boost of damage output. The results must be so overwhelming it can be "eyeballed" and one tiamat fight should be enough to determine whether it's worth giving up a spot in your alliance for a melee RDM.

P/S: I missed something in your post. Unless we know the exact amount of magic accuracy required for BLM to land nukes on Tiamat measuring the DB's MEVA is not going to help us decide whether DB actually makes a difference in HNM fight.

[Ahlah]

Take Cerb as an example:
I have done this a fair few times on rdm and it shines when your 2 PLds and dds take dmg and mages are not c4 spamming etc ... and i get a chance to land a cure or 2 myself then normally a blind/bind keep hate back on me and if i take any dmg a sleep dispel rotation and im back to a cure bind or blind - nice/easy hate bounce - all good

but how comes I've also done the fight where even after CS sleep II I've not lost more than a dozen sets of shadows all fight ... maybe doesn't help when the 2 Plds don't need curing idk and I mainly notice this when ive worked with one Pld who seems to solo tank a lot and the 2nd Pld acts as more an assister to them then and your then pushed into 3rd spot

RDMs should not have to rely on Cure spells to build hate. It costs a lot more MP and you probably wasted a bit of time to locate the player who needs cure.

When Cerb is not facing you, just keep spamming low cost hate spells. Cerberus take extra damage from Atonement and Spirit Within iirc. The problem here is Cerberus hits so fast RDM who has hate will have to focus on keeping shadow up and will not be able to cast any hate spell and you will lose hate to PLD eventually due to VE decay. Unlike RDM, when PLD has hate, they can still build enmity with melee hits and JA/spell (Flash is near instant cast) which does not interrupt shadow casting.

If you are interested in RDM tanking, try ZNMs. RDM are excellent tanks for many ZNM fights because they typically take a lot damage from BLMs and are relatively easy to blink tank. Pop items are easy to obtain it doens't matter if you screw up the fight. I will recommend Armed Gears, Gotoh and Tinnin.

[Izildur]

RDMs should not have to rely on Cure spells to build hate. It costs a lot more MP and you probably wasted a bit of time to locate the player who needs cure.

When Cerb is not facing you, just keep spamming low cost hate spells. Cerberus take extra damage from Atonement and Spirit Within iirc.

Sometimes things on paper and in practice are not quite the same ;;

i dont rely on Cures - but a well placed C4 (easy to target people with <stal>) really is a good or sometimes only way to get hate back in 1 action and stop the co tank taking it to the face xD but yes on "perfect balanced fights" (and ive done all HNMs now on rdm and pld) all you need is a bind or blind and the mobs back on you

mmm unfortunately i dont see me getting the chance to get off any WS on Rdm as i swap from swords to e-staff on all shadows - but yes its odd as i said as in both the time ive got hate np and struggled the Plds always melee now so i dont think TP/WSing is the differentiator - i may be wrong :/ and agree some testing of this 3rd emnity type idea would be valuable now its popular to see PLds in TP builds Joytoys and spamming Atonment

[Belkin]

Cerberus takes like...40 extra damage from those WS's, it's nothing amazing.

[Max™]

Since I got Atonement, I've left the MH without my chainsaw +1, but never forgotten my Joytoy.

The fact that even a lower damage Atonement is one of the best ways to cap your hate to increase the damage your next one does is ridiculous.

I don't think there is a third Enm type, if anything it might be that physical hits have a certain base Enmity applied on top of the actual VE/CE from the straight damage dealt, but I notice it doing shit like sky farming Pld/Nin with DD's going full retard.

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I'd be pissed too if I had a fucking taru doing that shit to MY ankles, especially if he was doing it in 10~20 +Enm after merits/random +Enm from gear.


As for Rdm/Nin tanking, honestly every time I hear Rdm meleeing come up, I wonder why it can't be incorporated into a Rdm/Nin hate cycle somehow. If the Pld is whacking away anyways, why aren't you?

[Killkenny]

Capped emnity (or more correctly referred to as 'near capped') is not necessary in most HNM battles but it doesn't mean RDM can't actually maintain that sort of emnity in actual HNM fights. In fact it does make PLD look like a gimped tank in situation when capped emnity is required to keep mob away from DD. As I have already mentioned Tinnin is a perfect example, when DD jobs consistently deal large amount damage to the target mobs the only way tanks can hold hate is to keep both CE and VE near capped all the time. RDM/NIN and NIN/DRK tanks work a lot better than PLD/NIN in Tinnin fight.

RDM is not any better than PLD in Tiamat fight because Tiamat has very high resistance to elemental nukes plus BLMs typically only nuke when she is in the sky and they lose a large chunk of VE when Tiamat is not flying, i.e. capped emnity is not required to keep hate.

This is why I mentioned in my previous posts that despite being the best job (apart from Yagrush WHM) in holding hate, RDM is still not the most preferred tank job. In most stand HNM battles, capped emnity is not required, and survivability becomes an important factor when it comes to endgame tanking, that's why PLD has become the standard endgame tank job with extra survivability and spike hate tools which help them to take hate back after hate reset. Since PLD is more balanced than RDM in majority of the standard endgame events, it's important to discuss with your linkshell first before you start gearing up RDM tank so that you don't get disappointed when the LS leader tells you they don't want a RDM tank.

Tiamat is not most standard HNM fights, it is actually an exception (and it is still extremely beneficial to cap hate because you may SC it on ground to speed up fight if you are in a capable ls). Rdm is better than a Pld in any situation where you don't melee (ixion may be an exception here).

Pretty much everything else (khim/cerb/kings/ixion/etc) you will be required to keep hate pushing against the cap if you are in a half decent ls which doesn't take over 30mins to kill fafnir with a full ally.

No matter how well you do your job if the DDs in your ls don't suck then they're going to get hit every so often. Survivability is extremely high on rdm, the ability to now get 410 stoneskin and larger access to -PDT/MDB gear, natural MDB trait, fast cast, phalanx.

No cerberus doesn't hit fast and he doesn't hit particularly hard either and a good rdm can continue to cast hate spells as solo tank on most of the typical HNM fights.

Curing isn't just about hate, low man situations or situations where you are short on mages often arise and you can get slightly ls mp efficient hate whilst keeping other people alive longer.

[Max™]

I think I'd be totally cool with a Rdm/Nin as Co-tank in pretty much any situation where I'm not primary DD due to atonement spam.

Having a hatebuddy who I can 100% count on will not fall down? Who can support me some if need be, and I can trust to bounce hate wonderfully?

These days I think you'd have to be a tard to refuse a well set up Rdm/Nin the opportunity to even prove they can tank.

[Izildur]

Rdm is better than a Pld in any situation where you don't melee (ixion may be an exception here).

Pretty much everything else (khim/cerb/kings/ixion/etc) you will be required to keep hate pushing against the cap if you are in a half decent ls which doesn't take over 30mins to kill fafnir with a full ally.

i was asked if i was interested to try DI solo on rdm ... i declined lol as didnt wish to be laughed at hard xD. Im sure with 3 rdm/nin it is possible and without to much brain drain.

Now... im pretty sure ive seen some LS website where a rdm and pld tanked DI and they said the rdm performed well ... think it could of been eminence ls maybe but their url isnt working atm. I dont know if anyone else has played around with rdm on it

[Max™]

Well, Pld/Rdm can do Dixie with the right setup/support, I can't help but be curious how a Rdm/Pld with Gambu shield and merits/the right support would do.

Problem with Rdm that I can think of is being caught midcast when he charges a TP move and not being able to avoid em, or is there something else I'm missing?

Never seen DI actually up, Levi and Carby had JP shells that held him in JP time forever (til recently obviously), much less being fought.

[TelosIllumini]

Personally, I've only gone RDM/NIN on casting monsters (MDB trait and endurace) since well... as stated throughout the topic, PLD can survive longer once shadows are down and spike hate much faster with a JA / Flash (RDM needs to build a bit longer) in case a DD delivers a huge damage spike.

The thing you should watch out for is that you, as RDM/NIN, are actually treated as a tank and not as a support (you may lol at this comment but I've had the confusion before XD). Yes, I cure my alliance members / co tank but I generally don't have the MP to spare to keep buffs up on my entire PT <.<; And for the love of god, WHMs that know when to cure, are fast with status cures and can give you room to cure yourself for hate are invaluable Q_Q;

As for tanking Dark Ixion and other HNM, I think it is possible to let RDM solo tank as you would let a PLD solo tank but I find it much safer to have a co tank in both situations, especially on RDM.

[Killkenny]

Personally, I've only gone RDM/NIN on casting monsters (MDB trait and endurace) since well... as stated throughout the topic, PLD can survive longer once shadows are down and spike hate much faster with a JA / Flash (RDM needs to build a bit longer) in case a DD delivers a huge damage spike.

This only applies to the first 2-5 minutes of the fight until hate is capped.

[Izildur]

Well, Pld/Rdm can do Dixie with the right setup/support, I can't help but be curious how a Rdm/Pld with Gambu shield and merits/the right support would do.

Problem with Rdm that I can think of is being caught midcast when he charges a TP move and not being able to avoid em, or is there something else I'm missing?

i dont know i wouldnt let a non Aegis Pld/rdm try this - dont get me wrong its doable im sure just a little to scary at times, as to rdm/pld i would say the same * Shrug

As to pld having more survivabilty over rdm without shadows i wouldn't agree due to sskin etc but the fact remains ixion hits at such a relentless pace i think safety in numbers would allow rdms space and time to keep CE capped and potentially turn this into butter - now all we need to do is find an LS who will let 3 rdms tanks and someone parse it hehe >>

And for anyone thinking your a "support mage" when tanking on rdm is 100 % - idiot - and dont worry ive also had people think and talk to me like we are still in 2004 xD And yes u must give rdms a good 5+ mins in any fight to hit /re hit cap ( a point many DD dont like or understand sometimes )

[Max™]

Well, yeah, it isn't retard proof like Pld/Nin is.

(1, 2... wait, what comes after 2? BLARGH I AM DED!)

Still, I bet one of these crazy bastards that post here has done it or would/could pull it off.

[TelosIllumini]

@ Killkenny: Agreed, the moment hate is capped on the tanks they take turns, it just goes faster for PLD from the start. The fight in general requires much more work for RDM compared to PLD.

Regarding survivability for RDM: Capped Stoneskin is not to be underestimated for sure and <3 the fast cast, but if you're getting a (crit) hit, you'll have much more trouble getting the spell up when shadows are wiped out as well (think of a ga spell and you just re-did utsu) ; ;. So I find it easier for PLD to survive thanks to Sentinel / shield bash / flash / shield proc / ... and their higher physical defense, but that may be just me Haven't tanked anything in about a year or so by now Q_Q;

PS: Never knew I was this frustrated over my rdm/nin experiences ; ;

[Killkenny]

Subbing /rdm at ixion means you won't be avoiding many (intentionally, any) tp moves as you will be bound and gravitied the majority of the time. The whole idea behind it is that a pld in full shield skill gear can easily make his attacks and physical tp moves managable and give the MDB trait to help protect against spear and wrath.

That aside ixion is easy enough for a nin to tank (about the least nin friendly mob in the game outside of JoL) but it can still kill you at any time because its regular attacks can randomly do up to 1k damage and its physical tp moves can also randomly do 1k+ (less to a decently geared tank but if you get kicked out of mage range it can finish you off before mages get to you).

[Ars5]

For shits and giggles if you were so inclined you could easily make a decent +thunder resist set for ninja which would pretty much nullify spear and wrath of zeus (minus the negative effects).

I was pretty hardcore set on nin/drk and was able to make it work on every (cept khim) hnm in the game, but once i finally got used to rdm/nin I couldn't go back to nin/drk.

I wouldn't go far as to say that its normal attacks will do 1k on a nin. Ive found most of my 1shot deaths on ixion was from a DD turning it which caused that stupid archeon kick to go off.

@izildur, you should try tanking ixion solo as rdm/nin. It's not as hard as you may think, just have a back up in case you get owned. Just try it.

Im sure with 3 rdm/nin it is possible and without to much brain drain.

I dunno ive found the more tanks you have on ixion the more annoying the fight can get.