RDM/NIN Tanking

[Kaeko]

I went to PMs with you C&O since you hit 25 posts for Advanced and I don't think most people care to read about Lipitor and bad cholesterol in a FFXI thread on RDM/NIN.

[Killkenny]

I have a screenshot somewhere of a normal attack doing 912 damage to me as nin/rdm with the typical -40% PDT taken, it was before rage was implemented so was nothing to do with that. That said, it was an isolated occurance but his physical attacks can randomly do triple/quadruple or even more than they normally do.

Edit: Lol @ Kaeko's post and I would agree that more tanks just make ixion fights slower because it changes direction more often unless your tanks are holding hands.

[Max™]

Isn't holding hands and playing patty cake with a pony the right way to do things?

[Kaeko]

About Ixion, we personally used NIN/DRK with a lightning resist set and he just flipped it on when Ixion bowed his head in preparation and it worked fine.

We eventually just went to PLD/NIN though because it's just plain easier. You can't hit the hate cap on Ixion with 2 tanks imo (and as others have mentioned, having more can be a negative thing). It just deals too much unavoidable damage to constantly maintain CE. I'll try to go over 3 options you can consider for Ixion and my opinions on this...

RDM/NIN

High CE gainers which can help you make up for the loss of CE due to damage. The problem is if you're spamming Dispel constantly for the CE, you're not spamming Blind for the VE. RDM has a hard time maintaining VE unless it's actively spamming Blind. Also Ixion makes you run quite often, unless you have a lightning resist set and just eat it. I personally just don't see this being optimal unless you just spammed and never worried about positioning or safety. Maybe would work with multiple tanks but again, lots of tanks on Ixion seems like an annoyance and not a benefit to me.

PLD/NIN

Hard to gain CE because you won't be meleeing on Ixion (wouldn't work even if you tried because meleeing from the front is like -90% damage taken). Also, Atonement damage is heavily reduced on Ixion. PLD/NIN has a hard time with CE gain without melee and with the unavoidable damage you take on Ixion, you're pretty much going to be floored at 0 CE constantly, certainly if you are solo tanking. If you use 2 PLD/NINs you may get some positive CE gain - though definitely not anywhere near the cap.

PLD/RDM

Basically you give up shadows but gain CE gainers like Dispel and some MDB traits. PLD/RDM has very high VE gainers, which RDM/NIN does not, making it very easy to keep your VE capped while still focusing on CE spamming (dispels). The downside is you get no shadows and take more damage, which means you'll lose more CE anyways. How this works in practice (with the tradeoffs) I don't know, I've never tried. I can honestly see this working with like 2 PLD/RDMs but can't say for sure - never seen it.

I'd personally just use PLD/NIN out of simplicity. I don't think you can work a situation where any tank gets capped on hate for Ixion... And considering you need 100k damage in 60 minutes, a couple of DDs are going to die or take hate anyways.

The best solution for a fast, low man kill I've found is to have a SAM/WAR just constantly DD it from the back. All of Ixion's TP moves are charge based so you can avoid and run from things like Archon kick, which helps the tank too because it's wasting time trying to hit a target that runs off. All you have to do is cure bomb the SAM while he uses Seigan. PLDs are good for this since they can cure bomb the DD. We managed to do a 7 man Ixion in about ~65 minutes this way a couple times (pre-rage obviously).

There seem to be a lot of valid strats for Ixion but I don't think any 1 strategy has come to predominate (which is maybe the sign of a good mob design on SE's part). I know when CoP came out there were many strategies for Wyrms (most commonly SMN burn, but also SATA etc.), but nowadays it's Manaburn in the air, TP limit on the ground and everyone copies that because it's the easiest/best. It's interesting no such de facto strategy exists for Ixion.

[TelosIllumini]

Isn't holding hands and playing patty cake with a pony the right way to do things?

Like this:
http://i86.servimg.com/u/f86/11/66/30/39/mylitt10.jpg

It has possibilities

On a serious note, I think Kaeko gave the best overview regarding tanks vs DI, gj

[Ars5]

I kind of cringe at the thought of pld/rdm on ixion. I understand people want to do somethings just to do them (ie climb mountains and shit), but god damn why make life harder on yourself..lol

[Izildur]

best thing ive ever seen on DI is one of our JP PLd/Nin's - a real solid tank from my experience but when it comes to DI he goes kamikaze !! im sure he would read this thread and tactics ideas jobs combos and think

"meh all idiots..."

His way is simple - works - and requires minimal effort xD

1. /nin

2. never ONCE runs from ANY move - we have sent him tells - said in ls chat - spoke about it on vent and u know what ... he thinks we are losers ;; he never takes one step away from DI- holds as much hate as any other Pld and he never dies lol - explain !

he just takes the beating to his face like a REAL MAN TANK - and makes me a sad panda ;; Well i could just try on rdm when i know we have one of our Plds around and if i didnt eat floor in 10 mins i may be tempted to release parse info lol

[Thorshammer]

Like this:
http://i86.servimg.com/u/f86/11/66/30/39/mylitt10.jpg

It has possibilities

lol... cute DI ^^

[Kaeko]

I kind of cringe at the thought of pld/rdm on ixion. I understand people want to do somethings just to do them (ie climb mountains and shit), but god damn why make life harder on yourself..lol

I generally agree but I've seen people on these boards talk about it. I don't know how much exaggeration there was to it but it seems like it could work in theory. Then again you could BLM tank this with enough cure bombs so you really have to see this for yourself to know how smooth the fight is going.

Then again, my LS used to astral burn Timmy and my LS leader groaned over the idea of completely revamping the strategy when we had a working one already. It paid off in the end though. So it doesn't hurt to be open minded sometimes. (I agree you have to be able to axe a bad idea when you see one though lol)

[stewie]

nice reply kaeko.


i was always curious why i was able to hang with the other rdm/nins as a nin/drk almost better than when i was nin/rdm lol. and so easily too. i guess we both came to the cap and started switching off eachother.

i wish i had that parse saved with me and the rdm/nin tanking Ultima and me holding more hate while taking less dmg with a /rdm sub. The CE and VE spells of a nin these days are way too under rated. i hope more ninjas step it up now that me and ruke are gone lol. i know haka is doing it good! taru ftw?!

Trying! I don't think any HNMls on siren let NIN tank though, sadly.

[Killkenny]

Do ixion's tp moves actually cause you to lose CE? Every time I've tanked it I can share hate just fine with co-tank, usually utsu is enough to make it look at the other tank. I have also been hit by stance and kick plenty of times for well over 700 damage and yet if I had just casted a spell or shadows it would still come for me even if other tank didn't get hit.

[Max™]

Any physical damage taken aside from a few odd instances (Namas type shit) results in lost enmity.

[Kaeko]

Do ixion's tp moves actually cause you to lose CE? Every time I've tanked it I can share hate just fine with co-tank, usually utsu is enough to make it look at the other tank. I have also been hit by stance and kick plenty of times for well over 700 damage and yet if I had just casted a spell or shadows it would still come for me even if other tank didn't get hit.

Actually I'm rather embarrassed reading this.

I never tested if indirect TP damage causes CE loss... only direct melee damage and TP moves on the main target...

Need to test this...

EDIT: I have done this using spells. I remember having Firaga hit 2 people with Goblin Shaman and checking to make sure the damage CE loss was on both players, not just the main. I have never checked TP moves though. I'm inclined to believe that if it works for spells like Firaga, it should work on TP moves like say Hurricane Wing, but it's not a perfect.

Also, I know from experience that solo tanking PLD/NIN Ixion is a nightmare hate wise. You can't keep hate off anyone DDing more than a minute... But 2 PLD/NINs do fine. If you're avoiding the AoEs well, you're basically splitting the damage taken between 2 targets, so the rate of CE decay will decrease for both tanks. This makes it easier to build CE. Usually from what I've seen firsthand, the PLD builds CE in chunks (when Sentinel is active and when they do not have hate), then loses it in chunks when they take hits or one of those nasty triple damage shots when its in zerk mode (red eyes).

[Killkenny]

It is just something I have observed from tanking ixion as his tp moves don't require a real target, they will go off regardless of whether people are in range.

[Kaeko]

It is just something I have observed from tanking ixion as his tp moves don't require a real target, they will go off regardless of whether people are in range.

Yes, the random Wraith of Zeus out of nowhere after you've Shadowbound it and no one is within 20' always makes me look twice.

[Greenjade]

As much as reading this whole thread gave me a headache, it did make things easier to understand in how RDM/NIN tanking works. Which is my current project, and if it wasn't for Belkin's and Kaeko's journals on both RDM/NIN tanking I probably would have lost interest long ago.

If not losing interest, I'd probably be tanking JoL in Morg's body.

In short I wanna say thanks to both Kaeko and Belkin for making me a good RDM tank. =D

[Gwylan]

We had SMN who died from Ixion tp move and got raised up and was just resting and died again and got raised and died again like 3-4 times in a row without doing anything at all after his first raise. And no it wasn't because he happened to be in range when the Ixion did the move on other members, the Ixion ran right to him and kicked his face. Just some odd weird hate. ;x

[Greenjade]

I thought DI's AoE moves could hit anyone outside of alliance. And isn't all his TP moves at least AoE in some regard? I remember watching some LS on my server fighting DI and almost died because I got to close. >.>;

[kotaru]

think it could of been eminence ls maybe but their url isnt working atm.

It changed to .info instead of .net. ^^;
We have used RDM/NIN x2 or RDM+PLD a few times on Ixion and it worked well.
Tanks should never get hit by his TP moves so keeping CE capped wasn't an issue.
Once you get into blind spam mode it's a little harder since you have to be running around to dodge at the same time. I suggest you make a macro with an MDB setup + Wyrmal Legs that allows you to blink when Ixion readies a move, that way you don't get stuck in the casting animation.

Don't think it has been mentionned in the thread but I find Composure to be a huge addition to RDM tank and was wondering how other tank used it.
When I tank I have Composure up for a short time, applying as many buff as possible (including refresh/haste) while keeping up with blindspam and changing to full Haste set to cast Utsusemi, and cancel it when I'm done buffing, takes around a minute. Or for Tia I do it when it flies and cancel it before it lands.

Has anyone tried to Joyeuse/Genbu while tanking?
If Atonment PLDs can "ride" the VE cap with melee dmg, RDM could do the same and save a bit of blind spam on meleeable HNMs, while adding Meva reduction.
I don't really like feeding TP myself but if PLDs do it without causing problem I guess it's ok for the RDM to do it?
I did it once on Cerb but it was only to check Enspell2 damages which weren't great. ^^;

[Belkin]

A large portion of being a successful Atonement spamming PLD is the incorporation of accuracy into your idle set. This involves either blinking every macro or full timing melee gear on RDM. That is why most people don't do it.

I think it would be particularly difficult for RDM to melee EFFECTIVELY, especially if they don't have 8 sword merits, fortitude torque and suppanomimi. Even then, you will be hitting for piddly damage all the way to 300 TP for Spirits. A large part of why PLD Atonement spam is so good is because you don't have to get to 300 TP.

Honestly, I think there is a point where you can melee effectively, and a point where you just feed mobs TP. More often than not, I feel like RDM would fall in the latter.