RDM/NIN Tanking

[Max™]

Actually... how viable would it be to plink shit for 0 Dmg + Enspells?

Do they give hate, and Excal is just weird like that, or do added effects never give hate?

[Kaeko]

Actually... how viable would it be to plink shit for 0 Dmg + Enspells?

Do they give hate, and Excal is just weird like that, or do added effects never give hate?

Added effects like spikes and enspell don't give you hate. If they did, Excal would be really good hate.

[Max™]

See, wasn't sure if Excal was the exception or what.

That's a damn shame, that sword would be ridiculous.

[Ruuz]

Is RDM melee tanking even an option? PLD can melee since their major damage reduction comes from armor/shield when the shadows go down, but a RDM will be torn asunder if they cant get shadows up in time (hence the use of Earth/Terra staff). PLD does not have to compromise his melee ability too heavy to do what he normally does, RDM does not have this same versatility.

[Izildur]

It changed to .info instead of .net. ^^;
We have used RDM/NIN x2 or RDM+PLD a few times on Ixion and it worked well.
Tanks should never get hit by his TP moves so keeping CE capped wasn't an issue.
Once you get into blind spam mode it's a little harder since you have to be running around to dodge at the same time. I suggest you make a macro with an MDB setup + Wyrmal Legs that allows you to blink when Ixion readies a move, that way you don't get stuck in the casting animation.

Don't think it has been mentionned in the thread but I find Composure to be a huge addition to RDM tank and was wondering how other tank used it.
When I tank I have Composure up for a short time, applying as many buff as possible (including refresh/haste) while keeping up with blindspam and changing to full Haste set to cast Utsusemi, and cancel it when I'm done buffing, takes around a minute. Or for Tia I do it when it flies and cancel it before it lands.

now i have something to try and aim for ! cheers xD one thing i think i noticed in some pics and wanted to just clarify - do u have both tanks stand side by side or wide apart (similar to the omega "AI glitch" tank style)

cheers

[Belkin]

Is RDM melee tanking even an option? PLD can melee since their major damage reduction comes from armor/shield when the shadows go down, but a RDM will be torn asunder if they cant get shadows up in time (hence the use of Earth/Terra staff). PLD does not have to compromise his melee ability too heavy to do what he normally does, RDM does not have this same versatility.

Something with Slow II and Elegy on it can easily be tanked with Utsusemi alone, making melee available. But as I previously stated, meleeing for 1-2 damage isn't my idea of practical. You would be feeding the mob TP more than anything. And with mobs like Khimaira and Cerberus, it is more trouble than its worth.

[kotaru]

now i have something to try and aim for ! cheers xD one thing i think i noticed in some pics and wanted to just clarify - do u have both tanks stand side by side or wide apart (similar to the omega "AI glitch" tank style)

cheers

We do it with both tank stay apart and pingpong hate. Not so far, but far enough so the tank that doesn't have hate can keep working on enmity when an AoE comes.

Another advantage RDM also have over other tank that isn't mentioned is the ability to claim/hold easier^^
A rdm/nin with a brd can claim Tiamat and hold it until people get there or solo hold Sandworm straight if not enough people to have a PT at NPC, etc...

[Izildur]

cool got some sound advice - so im guessing like 12 apart xD

Yes i cant see me ever focusing to much time meleeing on rdm/nin - we have enough to do as it is xD and again i prefer unlike some to swap to staff on shadows which also makes WSing impossible ;;

[Greenjade]

I have experience tanking JoL, now I'm wondering if I can use the same gear sets to tank Ultima or is there anything different that I would need for it? I'm still working on a decent -physical reduction set. And it would pretty much be the same way as tanking JoL?

[Eugene]

if you can get good emnity gear use sharkstrap and terra's, adds hp and physical resisntance. your survivability is more important than feeding a mob tp and getting minimal hate from the times you do land a sword hit for more than 2 points of dmg. unless i felt the need to death blossom i won't melee on a mob because it just gives tp and being locked on limits your mobility.

you shouldn't be being melee'd by jol? i dunno if you can tank from ultima from a distance, and even if you could the plds you are tanking with wont want to, because they'll melee for hate. ultima should be very straight foward except for citadel buster.

[Greenjade]

if you can get good emnity gear use sharkstrap and terra's, adds hp and physical resisntance. your survivability is more important than feeding a mob tp and getting minimal hate from the times you do land a sword hit for more than 2 points of dmg. unless i felt the need to death blossom i won't melee on a mob because it just gives tp and being locked on limits your mobility.

you shouldn't be being melee'd by jol? i dunno if you can tank from ultima from a distance, and even if you could the plds you are tanking with wont want to, because they'll melee for hate. ultima should be very straight foward except for citadel buster.

I don't melee period. Not on JoL or JoP...*cough snickers* As for Ultima I already talked about it with Fur, he said he wouldn't mind if I want to try. We usually have two PLD's there so if I can't do it, they'll step up and I can go back to curing and refreshing. *shrug* not a big deal TBH just something I want to try.

[Max™]

I'm not saying you should or have too.

I'm just saying the Rdm's who are all hard up about wanting to poke shit with their swords should maybe be trying to build a tanking setup around it, not trying to play buffer/enfeebler while soloing random shit mobs for TP.

[Eugene]

I wasn't suggesting you shouldn't tank ultima, I just don't understand why you wouldn't tank it in a straight forward tanking build.

Biggest reason i am putting together a tank set (slowly) is so i can be ready for tanking if we need another tank. My gear sets for support, curing, enfeebling, etc are all done. They might not be perfect, but gives me another option if im idling in wg and tiamat pops, ill be ready to hold it.

[Greenjade]

Ah yea, you've yet to show me your sets. xP I'm in WG atm but not sure for how long gonna get some RR and Food then log out at Dunes for Dynamis tonight.

[Killkenny]

Ultima is extremely easy to blink tank, it hits slowly and doesn't DA as far as I can remember. Its tp moves are hit and miss but with 350 stoneskin, terras staff/umbra cape and natural MDB trait nothing will be cause for concern. Citadel buster is far easier to survive as rdm when compared to a pld, save convert for after CB to regain hate. Like anything with a mixture of potentially damaging tp moves don't feed it too much tp and you will have no problems at all and you really don't need a huge amount of tanking gear to be proficient, it will depend on how far you want to take it.

[Eugene]

sent you a pm jade, can't log on cuz class in a few.

i'm not quite sure where all these people are saying its easy to die if you lose shadows a second. The vit and def of a rdm is considerably lower than a pld, and you don't have a shield but with stoneskin and properly bouncing hate you shouldn't have a problem. any slowed and elegyed mob that doesnt constantly take multiple shadows is easy. combine that with the speed of which rdm casts ichi, and i've gone nearly entire fights using ichi alone (1 or 2 ni casts), bouncing hate where needed, stoneskin and etc.

in terms of interupting on pld vs rdm, assuming you don't shield block on pld, and you don't have stoneskin up on rdm you will be interuppted, most of the time, critical or not. a crit might have more danger of killing a rdm, but if you count stoneskin points as hp i can hit about "1800 hp" on rdm with food. add that to an eventual terra staff full time, survivability jumps fairly high.

[Killkenny]

Rdm has more suvivability than pld, you can easily achieve over -40% PDT, being able to get 27 damage phalanx with just 3 pieces of gear, 350 damage stoneskin. Its not a glass cannon that will get smashed every time the mob looks at it for a prolonged period.

[Izildur]

yes agree with ken - also from a recent Tiamat parse i averaged 10 % less shadow interrupts than the pld and even when naked took about 50 less dmg per hit * Shrug

[Ahlah]

Tiamat is not most standard HNM fights, it is actually an exception (and it is still extremely beneficial to cap hate because you may SC it on ground to speed up fight if you are in a capable ls). Rdm is better than a Pld in any situation where you don't melee (ixion may be an exception here). Pretty much everything else (khim/cerb/kings/ixion/etc) you will be required to keep hate pushing against the cap if you are in a half decent ls which doesn't take over 30mins to kill fafnir with a full ally. No matter how well you do your job if the DDs in your ls don't suck then they're going to get hit every so often.

There is no reason to feed excessive TP to Tiamat when it's on the ground, the max. amount of damage done by BLM is limited by their MP pools. Tiamat's high resistance against elemental nukes means BLMs will probably run out of mp before they hit VE cap. Even if they do it's better for BLM to pull hate when Tiamat is still in the sky to avoid risk of Spike Flail.

Care to explain how DDs in your linkshell manage to maintain capped VE/CE without getting hit by AOEs etc?

Survivability is extremely high on rdm, the ability to now get 410 stoneskin and larger access to -PDT/MDB gear, natural MDB trait, fast cast, phalanx.

PLD have access to the same if not better Magic damage reduction/MDB/element resist gear than RDM, plus they can always sub RDM for stuffs like Ouryu and JoL.

Damage reduction gear is only useful if you can anticipate nasty attacks/TP moves, most of the time they are only used in "ohshit" macro as the last resort to keep RDM alive. Have you ever wondered why PLD don't carry Darksteel set?

The most important function of stoneskin is to prevent spell interruption when RDM try to get shadow back up. Many touch HNMs in this game will shred through stoneskin and deciminate your tank in seconds when both utsusemi are down. Sentinel/reprisal/shield block give PLD much bigger error margin when things go wrong. Will you rather bring a RDM/NIN to tank AV, PW and Vrtra fight?

No cerberus doesn't hit fast and he doesn't hit particularly hard either and a good rdm can continue to cast hate spells as solo tank on most of the typical HNM fights.

I will love to see your RDM/NIN solo tank Cerberus.

Curing isn't just about hate, low man situations or situations where you are short on mages often arise and you can get slightly ls mp efficient hate whilst keeping other people alive longer.

The only person RDM tank should cast cure on is the RDM him/herself or the co-tank. The same amount of MP can be used to cast more low cost hate spells plus attempt to locate players who are not in your party will only slow yourself down. If your DDs keep taking damage may be it's time for them to learn how to back off and stay out of aoe/spell range.

Of couse it's reasonable to throw in emergency cures esp. when mages are out of mp, if your LS is using a right strategy mages shouldn't have mp issues. Just imagine what will happen to the fight if NIN/DRK is the only tank available.

[Killkenny]

There is no reason to feed excessive TP to Tiamat when it's on the ground, the max. amount of damage done by BLM is limited by their MP pools. Tiamat's high resistance against elemental nukes means BLMs will probably run out of mp before they hit VE cap. Even if they do it's better for BLM to pull hate when Tiamat is still in the sky to avoid risk of Spike Flail.

If you can speed up the fight whilst controlling it through use of SC/MB on ground then why wouldn't you? Just because your ls isn't capable of this doesn't mean others aren't.

Care to explain how DDs in your linkshell manage to maintain capped VE/CE without getting hit by AOEs etc?

The idea of capped hate does not necessarily mean you will have capped values at all times as it is impossible for any job to achieve that due to decay and damage. However you will be able to repeatedly reach the cap which I think is a concept everyone but you has grasped.

PLD have access to the same if not better Magic damage reduction/MDB/element resist gear than RDM, plus they can always sub RDM for stuffs like Ouryu and JoL.

No they don't, short of an aegis allowing a pld to stack full MDB a rdm will take lower magic damage due to the trait and relative ease with which they can cap MDT.

Damage reduction gear is only useful if you can anticipate nasty attacks/TP moves, most of the time they are only used in "ohshit" macro as the last resort to keep RDM alive. Have you ever wondered why PLD don't carry Darksteel set?

You would idle in damage reduction gear, as idling in haste and enmity is pointless and we've already established you aren't going to be meleeing. Plds don't tend to carry around darksteel set because they can idle in shield gear which is a completely different concept.

The most important function of stoneskin is to prevent spell interruption when RDM try to get shadow back up. Many touch HNMs in this game will shred through stoneskin and deciminate your tank in seconds when both utsusemi are down. Sentinel/reprisal/shield block give PLD much bigger error margin when things go wrong. Will you rather bring a RDM/NIN to tank AV, PW and Vrtra fight?

No, one of the functions of stoneskin is allow you to get spells back up, depending on the fight it can be just as important for nullifying AoE damage. Seeing as how unlocked AV can't really be tanked by anything being that it has the ability to wipe the alliance in one move makes that completely invalid. I have no real experience with PW but I would imagine Atonement could provide much needed damage to take it down in the 2hr time limit, other than that I can't see why a rdm wouldn't tank it. Why couldn't vrtra be tanked by rdm, a nin can do it so a rdm sure as hell can.

I will love to see your RDM/NIN solo tank Cerberus.

Fucking lol at this one

The only person RDM tank should cast cure on is the RDM him/herself or the co-tank. The same amount of MP can be used to cast more low cost hate spells plus attempt to locate players who are not in your party will only slow yourself down. If your DDs keep taking damage may be it's time for them to learn how to back off and stay out of aoe/spell range.

Not even close, you don't always have the perfect setup and there are plenty of situations where it may benefit your alliance if you help cure some melees, mp often isn't an issue.