Death Blossom

[Lishje]

Oh, godamnit.

Who the hell let Ahlah on these message boards?

[Counterfeit]

miss

[Seraph]

Hey! Some Testing!

Death Blossom at 100% TP with a Martial Anelace (TP Bonus). The Magic Evasion Down effect was lasting at max 60 seconds (with the equivalent of 200tp). Never lasted longer than that after over 20 trials. Times were accurate +/- 1 second. How long does it take your RDM to engage a different mob, get 100+ TP, and return back to the first mob?

We are going to need a melee RDM rotation, or a TP granting SAM rotation if we are really serious about this you guys~~~~

[Kaylia]

Hey! Some Testing!

Death Blossom at 100% TP with a Martial Anelace (TP Bonus). The Magic Evasion Down effect was lasting at max 60 seconds (with the equivalent of 200tp). Never lasted longer than that after over 20 trials. Times were accurate +/- 1 second. How long does it take your RDM to engage a different mob, get 100+ TP, and return back to the first mob?

We are going to need a melee RDM rotation, or a TP granting SAM rotation if we are really serious about this you guys~~~~

Well, most debuff (pre nerf...kinda hard to tell right) last more than 1 minute. You don't need to keep it up all the time, only before elegy/slow/para.

[Seraph]

Well, most debuff (pre nerf...kinda hard to tell right) last more than 1 minute. You don't need to keep it up all the time, only before elegy/slow/para.

If you can keep communication up, it wouldn't be too huge of a problem unless people had to sit on their casts waiting for the WS to go off. I just see it as a huge pain in the ass to get it to work, I am not saying it is impossible or useless. Plus, you know when the RDM runs in to WS a terrible AoE is going to go off at the worst possible time, and noone will be paying attention because they are priming to cast their debuffs.

[grimrising]

Or has a Samurai in party with Shikikoyo?

RDM/SAM new hot trend?

I sorry, I really wanted to say it.

Edit: Aw, if I'd read the thread, someone beat me to it.

[tymora]

I'm totally going RDM/SAM to the next HNM.

LOL @ Wiki

Historical Background

Death Blossom is a term originally from the 1984 movie "The Last Starfighter" in which a fighter pilot fires all weapons indiscriminately in several directions. It was later adopted by the US military during Operation Iraqi Freedom, again meaning to unleash a hail of fire indiscriminately.


I want to fire all weapons indiscriminately in several directions on HNMs

PKUNK of Star Control II. "The Last Starfighter" came first but who cares about that

[Kaylia]

If you can keep communication up, it wouldn't be too huge of a problem unless people had to sit on their casts waiting for the WS to go off. I just see it as a huge pain in the ass to get it to work, I am not saying it is impossible or useless. Plus, you know when the RDM runs in to WS a terrible AoE is going to go off at the worst possible time, and noone will be paying attention because they are priming to cast their debuffs.

I don't disagree with this, I was just commenting on the "1 minutes" issue.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of any strategies that involve more or less complex communication, because based on my experience, people screw up. They screw up a lot. The simpler it is, the better it is.

If we were playing FFXII, I would say the average players have 4 gambit lines at best, and I'm being generous. Their AI stop before "stay out of AoE" and "sleep the add" line.



[edit]

That said, I'm actually interested in the potency of Blossom. Is it true you can lower "immune" monsters to a level where you can enfeeble them?
Let's say stun on Absolute Virtue for exemple?

[Raineer]

It has STR and MND mods. -Dex wont hurt a one handed weapon like it does a 2 handed.

Edited cause i was thinking of Expiacion Mods.

I thought the point was to make sure you land the WS, not to do damage. Do you really care how much damage it does, at all?

If Composure/Enspell2/DB allows you to perpetually enfeeble previously resistant monsters, that's a pretty damn good one trick.

I agree with this, but the proponents of this idea are suggesting ideas to try to do damage instead of making sure the thing lands (it's not hard to read their minds and see they think they are some hybrid FF1 RDM meleeing for uber damage, look at the suggested builds!).

Realize that if you miss your 100TP DB and then debuffs fall, you are a complete waste of a spot for the amount of time it takes to get another 100TP. Keep the recently shortened duration of elegy in mind, and you need to build for as much accuracy as possible (I remember being laughed at for rdm/rng build by Max), but seriously... look at what you guys are proposing. If you are slow on TP or miss your DB you are complete fail.

If you're a one-trick pony, better know exactly how to make that bitch run.

[Dragir]

Never question what is and has always been the accepted norm, or swarms of people looking to demonstrate how witty/intelligent/superior or all of the above will appear from nowhere, swarm all around you and possibly have you executed. That's just the way it is. Everyone else says so.

http://ryanalfiannoor.files.wordpres...ld-is-flat.jpg

[Raineer]

Never question what is and has always been the accepted norm, or swarms of people looking to demonstrate how witty/intelligent/superior or all of the above will appear from nowhere, swarm all around you and possibly have you executed. That's just the way it is. Everyone else says so.

The motto of all RDM melees, forever. Prove it works and prove it is more efficient and grats.

I'm sure it can work, I just don't know that it has a place everywhere. (oh god, it could be shit which is situational)

Also keep in mind that people on BG arguing with you aren't keeping your own linkshell from letting you do this, it's your job.

[Tempyst]

Look I don't have to apply the scientific method to anything, you're all a bunch of conformist jerks

[isladar]

Advanced Version Update 4.22.09

Ahlah has been removed from the forums for seven days. We apologize for any inconvenience.

[Kaeko]

Never question what is and has always been the accepted norm, or swarms of people looking to demonstrate how witty/intelligent/superior or all of the above will appear from nowhere, swarm all around you and possibly have you executed. That's just the way it is. Everyone else says so.

http://ryanalfiannoor.files.wordpres...ld-is-flat.jpg

Those that question norms must realize they are going against the grain and do their absolute best to provide the soundest argument possible when presenting a new idea. This usually requires some semblance of evidence.

Stating this idea will work and that the benefits of the MEVA down outweighs the negatives of a RDM feeding TP and being in nasty AoE range on HNMs requires that the actual MEVA down effect be quantified or studied in some fashion, correct? This includes the potency of the MEVA effect, the duration (which someone not the player proclaiming its use tested, ironically), and the percent change in the 'landing' rate of key enfeebles before and after its use. Before this is done, it would be a mistake to so boldly predict that this WS alone changes something as fundamental and established as the very position of the RDM in HNM.

I personally consider myself very open to new ideas but you have to come with at least some evidence, or at the very least and intent to test and debate. These posts seem meant more to incite, not investigate. Also, the best new ideas eventually become the norm because they withstand the attacks on the new idea itself. Survival of repeated attempts to be proven wrong is what strengthens any idea. If you meet your detractors with ad hominem attacks, such as this poster, you and your ideas will never be taken seriously.

*******

That being said, I'll actually try to provide an argument as to why I don't believe Death Blossom's MEVA effect will prove to be as useful on HNMs as the poster claims. I'll give you the testing performed by numerous SCHs when the group 2 merit charge ability "Focalization" was introduced.

Focalization is an ability, which fully merited, added +25 MACC. This is an awful lot of MACC for something and many SCHs merited this in hopes of it becoming "a mini elemental seal". Simply put, the results were far from amazing. Even if you were to give yourself weather + klimaform (raises MACC when you have correct weather on) + 5/5 merit focalization, which grants in the realm of +30 MACC (assume equivalent to -30 mob MEVA), you will not be able to land with high success the same enfeebles on resistant HNM like Elegy. It doesn't help you sleep in Brothers ENM like ES does either. Simply put, it is NOT a "mini elemental seal".

If we look at the mechanics behind this result, I think the reason why this is the case makes more sense. Based on Lodeguy's testing and Robonosto's translations on all that is MACC, when your 'landing rate' for a particular spell is below 50% (on say for example, slow on Khim, which is much lower than 50% even for a decked RDM), giving yourself +1MACC increases your landing rate by +0.5%. When a SCH uses the Klimaform + Weather + 5/5 Focalization combo (~+30MACC), each +1 MACC only adds +0.5% land rate, leading to a less than amazing +15% landing rate.

Also, remember that 'landing rate' is capped at 5% at the very worst. This is why your BRD can land silence on sky gods sometimes - because at the very worst he has a 5% chance still to land it. If your true land rate is well below 5%, even with stacking +~30MACC, your land rate will still be 5%. The reason Elemental Seal is so amazing is because it bypasses the MACC check. Even a LVL50 RDM can sleep Tiamat with Elemental Seal.

Whatever the -MEVA of Death Blossom is, it will likely follow the mechanics of MACC established by Lodeguy, whereas Elemental Seal will not. Because of this, DB's -MEVA effectiveness will come down to that -MEVA value. We already know that +30MACC (equivalent to -30 mob MEVA) won't provide significant benefit - SCH gets this for free every 2 minutes and they even find it underwhelming. +30MACC is still a lot. I would be very surprised if DB's MEVA was greater than this.

As a reference, Enspell II effects provide -10. Threnody, which is considered very useful, provides -50. Threnody can land this at a range, w/o TP, and can be spammed due to it not being TP based though. NIN spells are -30 I believe (not too sure).

While no one has provided the values for -MEVA on DB, it just seems difficult to imagine it being high enough to warrent meleeing on an HNM. Beginning of a fight as the OP suggests? OK, but even then the effects only last 1 minute unless you rotate, where the coordination vs. benefit ratio drops dramatically - so unless you're ganking the benefits won't last more than a minute (Izzy's point).

*********

What I just posted above is an example of constructive criticism. I don't truly care if I end up being right or not - in fact if the DB -MEVA is something outrageous like -100 then that's awesome and will add more opportunities for RDM in the future. All I care about providing is good, logically-based information that weeds out the bad new ideas because they are bad, and strengthens the good new ideas because they can pass critique such as this.

BG forums is notorious for the strength of particular posters in game mechanics who are able to weed out these good and bad ideas. This is why so many things ranging from HNM behavior to HNM strategy to fundamental game mechanics are found here. This is not to say other forums do not have this, but I think BG Forums' record speaks for itself - we have lots of people that critique well. Hence, it's a great place to show off and popularize your own ideas - if they are good ones and survive criticism.

[Kaylia]

Advanced Version Update 4.22.09

Ahlah has been removed from the forums for seven days. We apologize for any inconvenience.

Was it really ban worthy? I disagree with his idea, but discussion isn't a bad thing either, even if he is just waving his argument without any field testing.

In the worst case, it will simply be review of the basic, but maybe someone will go test it eventually to "win" his side of the argument, and everyone has something to gain from this.

[isladar]

Unfortunately (or not), he wasn't really discussing anything, as you pointed out, nor has he contributed anything to these sorts of threads other than a mass of flamebait. It was not permanent, but it's gotten to the point where what he was posting was just disruptive.

Going back to read Kaeko's post now!


[edit]: Everything is working as intended.

[Seraph]

[Whole bunch of stuff]

How are you planning on measuring the potency of Death Blossom? I was thinking about this eariler and I suppose if you assume every potency is equal, it might not be as hard to test as I am making it out to be, but have we figured that out yet for sure? The weaponskill description leads me to believe it's most likely static, but we all know how accurate the WS descriptions can be.

[Kaeko]

How are you planning on measuring the potency of Death Blossom? I was thinking about this eariler and I suppose if you assume every potency is equal, it might not be as hard to test as I am making it out to be, but have we figured that out yet for sure? The weaponskill description leads me to believe it's most likely static, but we all know how accurate the WS descriptions can be.

Best method of testing imo is RDM/NIN main hand sword off hand KC with enspell 1. Use enspell proc as the 'magical spell' you are taking data on for resists with the aid of a parse. You should be able to get enough TP to constantly supply DB (does the effect refresh itself if you WS again before the effect wears?) and you can count a ton of enspell procs quickly with DB.

Mob choice I think enaero on Colbri is a good candidate since it resists wind heavily, so you can get below average accuracy on a EP mob, but still not floored at 5% because it is an EP mob. Basically avoid the 5% and 95% floors and ceilings. There was a tester on Alla RDM forums with an incredibly well designed setup using enspells.

Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI

Collect some data before spamming DB, then with spamming DB. As far as trials, 1000 trials is a reasonable start, but insufficient to nail down a precise value. If you simply wish to give a range of MEVA down ~400 like this poster on Alla did is probably sufficient. Really depends if you want to nail down X MEVA or feel comfortable showing a range.

[Kaylia]

Unfortunately (or not), he wasn't really discussing anything, as you pointed out, nor has he contributed anything to these sorts of threads other than a mass of flamebait. It was not permanent, but it's gotten to the point where what he was posting was just disruptive.

Going back to read Kaeko's post now!

You're the boss! I'm not going to lose sleep over it I guess >_>.

As a reference, Enspell II effects provide -10. Threnody, which is considered very useful, provides -50. Threnody can land this at a range, w/o TP, and can be spammed due to it not being TP based though. NIN spells are -30 I believe (not too sure).

Ancient spells on BLM are -20? I can't remember, and I can't find the information on both wiki.

Anyway, can you stack those debuff together? I assume threnody can be stacked with everything else because it's a song, but what about "iconless" debuff like Ninja's elemental wheel, Ancient spells, Death blossom, en-spell II? If it's anything like accuracy/defense debuff, only the strongest should stick...reducing the possible difference between DB and the other alternative.


Also, the otherwiki says you can land debuff on monsters that are normally immune (highly resistant?). Assuming this piece of information is even accurate, the value would need to be something significant. I don't think it would be possible to notice something under 20-30


And there is always the possibility it follow a different pattern (add a 20% chance your enfeebling skip the m.acc check), but I doubt so, it's probably m.eva like you said.

[Seraph]

You should be able to get enough TP to constantly supply DB (does the effect refresh itself if you WS again before the effect wears?)

Very interesting setup. As for your question, I honestly have never fought a mob that didn't either die before the effect wore off, or took me longer than 60 seconds to get 100tp again. Once this next Beseiged starts, I'll most likely get some free TP wings, and ill fire off a second DB about 30 seconds after the first, and see if it takes 90 seconds to get the 'wears off' message.

Edit: It does NOT overwrite itself. Duration will be based on the first weaponskill. I just tested it twice to be sure, same results as the first time.

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