Death Blossom

[Kaylia]

How are you planning on measuring the potency of Death Blossom? I was thinking about this eariler and I suppose if you assume every potency is equal, it might not be as hard to test as I am making it out to be, but have we figured that out yet for sure? The weaponskill description leads me to believe it's most likely static, but we all know how accurate the WS descriptions can be.

Can you land something with Elemental Seal on a PLD with Fealthy up (I thought I read that somewhere)? If it's a static number, you could try against a PLD in Ballista?

If it's m.eva-, you got to do it the long away.

[Kaeko]

Can you land something with Elemental Seal on a PLD with Fealthy up (I thought I read that somewhere)? If it's a static number, you could try against a PLD in Ballista?

If it's m.eva-, you got to do it the long away.

Traits are applied after all MACC checks are done I think... This is why ES Sleepga II on Dynamis Xarc trains will result in unslept PLD mobs sometimes right? I'm not entirely sure.

As to your question about making immune mobs no longer immune... I question OldWiki unless they provide a source. You could test this on RDM/BLM on any skeleton mob though I think right? Death Blossom a skele mob that you won't 1 shot, ES sleep. If it works, you have turned an immune to sleep mob not immune to sleep.

[Kaeko]

Edit: It does NOT overwrite itself. Duration will be based on the first weaponskill. I just tested it twice to be sure, same results as the first time.

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If you want to test this, it'll just be slower. You can get an awful lot of procs in 60 seconds on a KC if you happen to have one though. 400 trials with and w/o death blossom takes maybe an hour tops with a KC.

[Kaylia]

Traits are applied after all MACC checks are done I think... This is why ES Sleepga II on Dynamis Xarc trains will result in unslept PLD mobs sometimes right? I'm not entirely sure.

As to your question about making immune mobs no longer immune... I question OldWiki unless they provide a source. You could test this on RDM/BLM on any skeleton mob though I think right? Death Blossom a skele mob that you won't 1 shot, ES sleep. If it works, you have turned an immune to sleep mob not immune to sleep.

I'm not sure you can tell which one is applied first from this, but resist traits are definitively not applied directly to the m.acc roll for the reason you mentioned.

The only way to tell which one is rolled first would be cast enough spell with different magic accuracy level, and check if the "resist!" message is a static number, or if more resist mean less "resist!".


So, fealthy is just boosting the resist trait to the maximum? I thought I read somewhere you could land something on a PLD with Elemental Seal, that's why I thought it wasnt your traditional spell immunity.

[Kaylia]

Is there a difference between "immunity" and "resist trait". You don't get the "resist!" message when you cast on a elemental, meaning they are probably applied on a different level again.

[Kaeko]

I'm not sure you can tell which one is applied first from this, but resist traits are definitively not applied directly to the m.acc roll for the reason you mentioned.

The only way to tell which one is rolled first would be cast enough spell with different magic accuracy level, and check if the "resist!" message is a static number, or if more resist mean less "resist!".


So, fealthy is just boosting the resist trait to the maximum? I thought I read somewhere you could land something on a PLD with Elemental Seal, that's why I thought it wasnt your traditional spell immunity.

If Ashira had a PLD leveled with Fealty I'd have figured that move out by now =P

Fealty is really interesting since it not only provides almost 100% enfeeble resistance (not sure, but I remember a PLD with Fealty even resisting Bio III effect from Flayer Tribulation?), but resists Meteor. It's doubly effective in that it will resist damage moves as well... Any move that results in a 300 damage meteor from AV deserves in depth testing imo.

I can see how it works on enfeebles by just bypassing the MACC/MEVA check, but I'm not quite able to wrap my head around how it resists magic damage like AV Meteor. What's the 'cap' on straight elemental damage resistance? 1/8th? 1/16th? Maybe Fealty just automatically gives you the maximum resist tier?

[Kaylia]

I bet it's not elemental damage resistance, but a straigth 90% dmg reduction against "non elemental" attack like meteor and mijin.

Added to an immunity to most debuff with an icons.

[edit]
And shit, why am i here when I have a bunch of final this week.

[Raineer]

Look I don't have to apply the scientific method to anything, you're all a bunch of conformist jerks

Compelling argument.

Have you asked yourself why you post here? Are you trying to be convincing? Persuasive? Informative? Tossing out ideas is great, it's nice to put some kind of discussion behind the ideas.

Your comment makes the scientific method sound ineffective... When someone puts forth a hypothesis, that person should be it's biggest critic as well. This is how the best ideas are refined.

If an idea can survive the random criticism from BG (or wherever), then it potentially has merit. The fact that most proponents (not all, but certainly you) have their figures in their ears shouting lalala isn't supporting the idea very strongly.

[Plight]

While it's not terribly relevant to the thread, it seemed worth mentioning due to how often this seems to come up; despite Death Blossom, I was still unable to silence a PLD AF NM, so it seems unlikely that it would make anything else susceptible to debuffs to which they would otherwise be immune.

[Kaeko]

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic Raineer lol

[Demosthenes11]

am I the only one that finds it funny the ban avatar has a word, that if used in us normal folk posts, results in a temp ban?

[Kaylia]

While it's not terribly relevant to the thread, it seemed worth mentioning due to how often this seems to come up; despite Death Blossom, I was still unable to silence a PLD AF NM, so it seems unlikely that it would make anything else susceptible to debuffs to which they would otherwise be immune.

How many silence attempt?

Also, any early conclusion is risky considering the spell can be blocked on many different levels. It's most likely just m.evade like we thought initially, but if it's as awesome certain people are saying, it could be something else.

[Plight]

How many silence attempt?

Gave up after the third cast. It's only level 62 so I figured if it wasn't landing with 332 enfeebling, it wasn't going to happen. Nothing about Orcish paladins would make them particularly resistant to silence, would it?

[Altariel]

Is enspell testing appropriate for testing enfeebling magic accuracy? This most certainly should work to estimate stick rate of elemental magic. However with elemental magic assuming there is no magic barrier in place, at worst you get gimped down to the lowest damage tier (1/16 maybe?). To my knowledge you'll never see "The Colibri resists the effects of Enaero!" Wouldn't it be more accurate instead to cast the same enfeeble on the same level mobs with the same gear setups a few thousands with and without Death Blossom?

[Raineer]

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic Raineer lol

Internet anger cannot be so easily quenched, you jerk.



lol

[Kaeko]

Is enspell testing appropriate for testing enfeebling magic accuracy? This most certainly should work to estimate stick rate of elemental magic. However with elemental magic assuming there is no magic barrier in place, at worst you get gimped down to the lowest damage tier (1/16 maybe?). To my knowledge you'll never see "The Colibri resists the effects of Enaero!" Wouldn't it be more accurate instead to cast the same enfeeble on the same level mobs with the same gear setups a few thousands with and without Death Blossom?

Enspells resist similar to elemental magic as you said, however, enfeebles resist on various tiers as well. This is why it is generally not good to use them for testing purposes. For instance, if you land Slow on a mob, that could have been a 1/2 resist slow that lasts for 1/2 duration, but based on the log you would never know unless you waited out the duration. It's tedious and gives you a false number of positive enfeebles b/c it will clump partial resists with no resists.

Always try to use spells with direct damage so you can mark the type of resist. Usually when you want to use enspell testing, you're just clumping any type of resist (1/2 or greater) together into a general "resisted" field. There is a theory on how the 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 resist system works but that's probably not important atm.

So basically to test this get like 400 hits on Enaero, then you see how many didn't resist at all vs. how many did resist some amount (doesn't matter 1/2, 1/4, etc.).

[Altariel]

I do see where you are coming from in terms of the tediousness and inaccuracies of testing on enfeebles, but it seems that the enspell method just ignores the mechanic of enfeebling magic resists. Is there is any existing testing or theory that suggests what the expected percent of outright enfeebling resists would be if you know already know the stick rate of elemental magic at each tier?

For example if someone uses your example and gets a data set using enaero on colibri both with and without Death Blossom, are we able to make any useful prediction about how often silence or gravity would be resisted on the same mob?

I am just a bit concerned that this test would create an apples to oranges comparison which may not be applicable to things such as sticking a slow or elegy on cerb after a DB.

[Kaeko]

I do see where you are coming from in terms of the tediousness and inaccuracies of testing on enfeebles, but it seems that the enspell method just ignores the mechanic of enfeebling magic resists. Is there is any existing testing or theory that suggests what the expected percent of outright enfeebling resists would be if you know already know the stick rate of elemental magic at each tier?

For example if someone uses your example and gets a data set using enaero on colibri both with and without Death Blossom, are we able to make any useful prediction about how often silence or gravity would be resisted on the same mob?

I am just a bit concerned that this test would create an apples to oranges comparison which may not be applicable to things such as sticking a slow or elegy on cerb after a DB.

The prevailing theory on 'partial resists' for all magics is that there is a base resist rate. Let's say for instance, you have a 60% chance (p=0.6) of landing blizzard 1 with no resist. The partial resists would look like this:

0 resist: p
1/2 resist: p(1-p)
1/4 resist: p(1-p)^2
1/8 resist: (1-p)^3

This would apply to be elemental magic as well as enfeeble types, though certain enfeebles don't have a 1/8th tier like sleep. The evidence that this works for elemental magic is strong as Lodeguy's tests were using water magic. However, it would be difficult to prove this for enfeebles without using the same methodology Lodeguy used, but on an enfeeble (which would take forever using 20000+ trials).

The most trials I've ever seen using a test of an actual enfeeble was 1000 trials using Paralyze on Aura Statues. The results of this test were deemed questionable at best on BG, however, because the tester lumped all partial resists as no resist (since the log message said Paralyze landed, which cannot tell you 1/2 or full duration).

To answer your question though, we have an idea on how the resist tiers work for elemental damage, and simply extrapolate that enfeebles will follow a similar (1-p)^n axiom. We can't really prove that w/o a test, but such a test would be extremely time consuming

So basically no promises that elemental damage translates to elemental enfeebles, but we have nothing to suggest it doesn't right now. If you are not willing to take this 'leap of faith' that it translates to enfeebles, then the test I suggested using Enspells will not tell you anything in terms of enfeebles.

EDITED for Math errors (thanks Teorem)

[Spider-Dan]

+30MACC is still a lot. I would be very surprised if DB's MEVA was greater than this.

As a reference, Enspell II effects provide -10. Threnody, which is considered very useful, provides -50. Threnody can land this at a range, w/o TP, and can be spammed due to it not being TP based though. NIN spells are -30 I believe (not too sure).

Not sure if I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying that -elemental resistance is directly (and inversely) proportional to +MACC?

In any case, there is a precedent (somewhat) for an attack greatly crippling evasion: Feint. Feint tests show that it's somewhere in the range of evasion -140; if DB had anything close to that number, it would indisputably be one of the best debuffs in the game.

I'm not saying that it's likely that DB's -MEVA is that high, but it wouldn't be completely unthinkable.

[Kaeko]

Not sure if I'm misunderstanding you, but are you saying that -elemental resistance is directly (and inversely) proportional to +MACC?

In any case, there is a precedent (somewhat) for an attack greatly crippling evasion: Feint. Feint tests show that it's somewhere in the range of evasion -140; if DB had anything close to that number, it would indisputably be one of the best debuffs in the game.

I'm not saying that it's likely that DB's -MEVA is that high, but it wouldn't be completely unthinkable.

As far as I can tell, there are many similarities between the melee acc formula and the currently accepted macc knowns. I think the assumption that MEVA is the opposite of MACC is a valid one; however, if someone produces information that says otherwise, I'll have to eat my words on it.

Some similarities between the 2 are 1) they both have 'level corrections' that penalize fighting mobs higher level than you, 2) inflection point at 50%, 3) accuracy floors and accuracy caps are the same (5%/95%), and 4) 1 skill = 1 acc in magic, 1 skill = 1 acc in melee until after 200 skill, then (0.9). This difference between melee and magic acc after 200 skill can be explained by a patch SE gave around Zilart era that specifically noted changes in the melee skill to acc formula.

Feint is such an oddball in that the boost is so massive that it essentially revolutionized zergs, especially KC DRK zergs, where the evasion decrease is so strong that it can allow a C weapon to hit 95% accuracy with songs. I'm not saying it's out of the question that DB can do this, but if the boost was so drastic, I would think someone would have been able to find this out purely by eyeballing it.

I know you aren't suggesting DB works with -140 MEVA, but to give you an idea at how ridiculously strong -140 evasion is, it would be like increasing your land rate on slow II on Khim from 15% to 85%. I'd think someone would have noticed this by now if it were that strong. Still, a easy ~400 trial enspell parse would end this debate imo. Even if you can't nail down the exact value due to small sample size, you can get a nice range.