Critical on WS Questions

[Masamune]

KJ modifiers may deny it but I yet have to see higher avarage dmg on KJ than on RR... on any mob, even if I'm putting every single STR gear I have during KJ (which is Alky over Heca only lol >.>).
But I would gladly read some way to improve KJ number, since this WS looks very nice.

Same got almost always better avg with RR than KJ, that's why i'm trying to better understand RR's mods regarding crit rates*DeltaTP.

[Shinryuu]

You use KJ when it doesn't kill the mob and it's going to make pretty lights off the last guy's WS; you're actually adding more damage that way. Of course, this won't show up on parsers, and e-peen is what really matters, so just spam RR. <_<

Regarding WSing at 105% crit: it's my understanding that between 100-200 TP effects scales linearly, and between 200-300 it does too. Example, at 150 TP Full Swing will have an fTP of 2.0. (1.0 at 100, 3.0 at 200). Say RR has +20% crit at 200 TP, and 0% (fairly sure, again) at 100. 105 will gives you an innate boost of 1% crit.

[Vejitta]

You use KJ when it doesn't kill the mob and it's going to make pretty lights off the last guy's WS; you're actually adding more damage that way. Of course, this won't show up on parsers, and e-peen is what really matters, so just spam RR. <_<

That's irrelevant. We're disscusing RR vs KJ avarage output alone, not what it's capable of in cooperation with other WSes.

Regarding WSing at 105% crit: it's my understanding that between 100-200 TP effects scales linearly, and between 200-300 it does too. Example, at 150 TP Full Swing will have an fTP of 2.0. (1.0 at 100, 3.0 at 200). Say RR has +20% crit at 200 TP, and 0% (fairly sure, again) at 100. 105 will gives you an innate boost of 1% crit.

Was that even proven (I mean 100tp gives no crit+ for RR)? And if it was, how and where are this test results?

[Max™]

Rampage and Vorpal give no Crit + at 100%, Nagamaki tested that a lot. Only shit like Backhand Blow, I assume Ascetics Fury, that one Drg WS that got changed to Crit hit but 1~2 hits, get significant +Crit at any value.

RR and DB should follow the Ramp/Vorp pattern, math shown for my gear sets and known damage averages lines up exactly with the assumption of WSing at 100~110% and getting 0~1% Crit boost at that TP value, only your dDex/Merits/Crit + shit affecting it.

KJ does better for me than RR in Dynamis, some Limbus zones, certain mobs in sea.

Attack is the main way to make KJ rock, I ONLY ever use it with Berserk up, Zerk down, RR > KJ 9 times out of 10.

2hring also rapes with KJ of course, 3.0 fTP at 100% no doubles, 50% Str mod, and the chance to toss out a big doubled light = ftw.

[dawdr]

Rampage and Vorpal give no Crit + at 100%, Nagamaki tested that a lot. Only shit like Backhand Blow, I assume Ascetics Fury, that one Drg WS that got changed to Crit hit but 1~2 hits, get significant +Crit at any value.

RR and DB should follow the Ramp/Vorp pattern, math shown for my gear sets and known damage averages lines up exactly with the assumption of WSing at 100~110% and getting 0~1% Crit boost at that TP value, only your dDex/Merits/Crit + shit affecting it.

KJ does better for me than RR in Dynamis, some Limbus zones, certain mobs in sea.

Attack is the main way to make KJ rock, I ONLY ever use it with Berserk up, Zerk down, RR > KJ 9 times out of 10.

2hring also rapes with KJ of course, 3.0 fTP at 100% no doubles, 50% Str mod, and the chance to toss out a big doubled light = ftw.

For what it's worth, I believe there was recent Evisceration testing over on Alla that showed it had a critical hit rate bonus of about 15% on top of your base rate, or at least the first hit did. I'll go dig around until I come across it, but if Evisceration can carry a bonus I wouldn't rule out a bonus for Raging Rush just yet.

Edit: Well that was faster than I expected. Here is the thread I was talking about. Sample size is only 350 weapon skills, but that should be enough to establish that there's at least a bonus of some kind.

[Masamune]

Rampage and Vorpal give no Crit + at 100%, Nagamaki tested that a lot. Only shit like Backhand Blow, I assume Ascetics Fury, that one Drg WS that got changed to Crit hit but 1~2 hits, get significant +Crit at any value.

RR and DB should follow the Ramp/Vorp pattern, math shown for my gear sets and known damage averages lines up exactly with the assumption of WSing at 100~110% and getting 0~1% Crit boost at that TP value, only your dDex/Merits/Crit + shit affecting it.

It's that math you mentioning i'm interested in, to guessestimate those Critical WSs "crit%=f(dTP) pattern". Problem is i found only this sentence @ wikipedia :

"Only weapon skills that say "Chance of critical varies with TP" can have a critical hit within the WS without forced critical (i.e. Sneak Attack or Mighty Strikes).
Base critical hit chance varies between weapon skills."

...which confirm what you guys were saying above, BUT how to estimate that (supposedly) linear crit%=f(dTP) (for TP above 100% of course) since all those crited WSs Rampage, RR, VB, Penta, Guillo, ...) all have fixed fTP values ? (to use the fullswing example mentioned above)
Also, i'd need to find at least one base value at a given tier (100, 200 or 300%), i could start assuming some have 0% "innate" crit% @ 100TP, but not all those WSs have same base crit chances ....

EDIT: wow extremely relevant thread yu got there Dawdr, thank you deeply ^^. Reading...

[Max™]

Pick a target which you can safely determine you have capped dDex on.

Determine your melee critical hit rate.

Calculate what your damage range for crit/non-crit would be.

Spam WSes and report the data.

I did this myself a long while back as I recall, should have had something like 24% Crit rate with my setup/byakko's/pole/any target below 60 something Agi.

Did it on Gigas bats which were one shotted by any hits, in Delkfutts. Got something like 26 Crit damage 1 hitters out of 100 tests, off by a little bit, but far too low to have any significant +Crit at 100% Tp.

Nagamaki's Jin/Vorpal tests were the same, and showed the same results, but he did his in Lufaise on Gigas Sheep.


Rampage, Vorpal, Jin, Backhand Blow, Raging Rush, Drakesbane, Evisceration, Ascetics Fury, Iron Tempest, and I think Impulse Drive are the only Crit TP WSes I can recall off the top of my head.

[Shinryuu]

- Vorpal Blade/Scythe/Thrust
- Dulling Arrow
- Arching Arrow
- Hexa Strike
- Rampage
- Keen Edge
- Raging Rush
- Evisceration
- Power Slash
- Backhand Blow
- Stringing Pummel
- Blade: Jin
- Sniper Shot
- Heavy Shot
- Skewer
- Drakesbane

Probably missing some.

[VZX]

Snipe Shot ignore defense, not a critical chance WS.

[Max™]

Funnily, I just noticed I typed Iron Tempest instead of Keen Edge, because an LS mate said they had a War in their party using SA/Keen Edge.

Instead of SA Sturmwind.

Also:6,666th post, ooh, strings of numbers which have no actual significance... much like most of my posts.

[Masamune]

Your last post Max contradicts itself saying "no actual significance" while actually Keen Edge is a nice idea for testing innate crit% depending on TP : one hit only WS ^^

[Valyana]

Keen Edge is a good WS for testing the innate crit% on Keen Edge, but it doesn't tell us anything about other WS: Backhand Blow has a different base rate than Rampage, for instance.

[Max™]

I meant the 6,666th post, because the whole superstitious bullshit about 666 is utterly fucking retarded.

Also, as was stated, Keen Edge won't help determine the crit rate of RR, only mobs which are 1 shotted by RR's first hit with predictable damage returns are.

My own testing to that effect shows 0% Crit bonus at 100% TP.

[Masamune]

0% @ 100TP for RR, ok np thats one info; now what about @ 200 & 300TP ?

Same for other "crited" WSs ?

If someone could direct me to threads with results on that topic, like that evisceration one posted previously, would be cool pleas

[Masamune]

Also, about yur testing Max, did yu just subtracted yur parsed crit rate to yur "natural" crit yu should have (like 24% under capped conditions) ?

[Shinryuu]

Yes, the way you test it, you get 100 TP (105 or so is fine) with capped DEX crit (20%) and (most likely) merits: 24% total. Now, the RR hit needs to oneshot the target. You'll have a say, 300 RR hit for non-crit, and a 380 for crit. Count the 300s. Count the 380s. Calculate percentage. If it's (close to) 24%, RR doesn't gain innate crit. The same test is done for 200% TP. Except it takes twice as long, hur.

[Max™]

4 Merits, High enough Dex to cap for shit like Greater Colibri, against targets where it's certain to cap Crit rate (Gigas Bats are my favorites), and yeah count the 300~ vs 400~ WSes.

I did 100 while trying to determine if gorget fTP applied to the second hits (it doesn't btw), and noted 26 Crits out of 100 WSes, which is well within margin of error for 24% Crit rate/+1~% for being slightly over 100% TP.