Endgame Rewards and Situational Gear

[Tortalius]

AA rotation?

[Drace]

Aerial Armor

[Tortalius]

Oh lord. I figured that's what it was, but I still can't believe people used to do that...

[Gadritan]

Oh lord. I figured that's what it was, but I still can't believe people used to do that...

Yeah. i.e. at Fafnuts we'd have PLD/WARx2 RDM/SMN WHM/SMN BRD/SMN etc.

In hindsight it was fucking ridiculous.

On topic though, I really like having situational gear. It's just getting overboard from stacking up over the years. Instead of looking to incorporate gear that surpasses what's available, it'd be great if they would fuse some of this stuff together.

Using situational gear is one of the differences between "good" and "bad" players, but the answer to overstocked inventories shouldn't just be adding more inventory space.

And I couldn't agree more with how retarded the drop rates are for events that require close to, or more than, 18 people. Even if they added some situational shit that's not omfgbbq, it'd still be nice to see 6-7ppl walk away with at least something.

[Max™]

Arc is the one who was getting mad at me when I was like "dude, wtf, why not just go /Nin?"

He was like "look, you come tank this shit and then we'll talk."

[Gadritan]

lol. I assumed that.

It's a shame he got relic disease and his tanking/attitude went to hell.

He went from one of my best friends to a worthless piece of shit pretty quick, lol. When I came back he was a totally different person man. And I was his main WHM. Which I gotta say was a huge fucking pain in the ass. He required more cure bombs than almost any other tank I've maged for. And that's saying something. I'm extremely efficient with my MP, but I was always struggling to find more to try and keep him alive. He started going PLD/RDM to everything, which is fine as long as you don't forget that you have cures too. All he would do is spam dispel/sleep etc for hate. Self-curing was a myth.

[Max™]

Eh, he's cool with me except for that whole going to Titan shit.

I'd go Pld/Rdm all the time too, I will have to bug him about self curing though, it's a lot of enmity too... >.>.

[Gadritan]

I will have to bug him about self curing though, it's a lot of enmity too... >.>.

You'd be wasting your time. He's got that "I have an Aegis so I am Jesus," attitude now.

I hate when people forget where they came from. Especially relic holders who's relic cost their LS 8+ members.

Oh well. Olde is olde.

-

I think a reduced rage timer on a lot of hnm would make a world of difference too. They need to change the risk vs reward. High risk high reward would make this game so much more interesting instead of just simply needing to kill a weak ass mob a couple hundred times to get the items you need.

[ringthree]

I don't know if higher risk/reward is a direction we want to go. Essentially you are asking for more farming for pop items with harder enemies making it easier to waste a whole lot of farming time for no reward.

What I think you mean is that you want more challenge and more reward. I think everyone wants that.

[Hyan]

What I think you mean is that you want more challenge and more reward. I think everyone wants that.

They'll have to make it so it's challenging in 5 years+ too. So far Kirin and AV have failed in this. It's not really as easy to do as some might think.

Isn't your avatar the picture of that fairy from the anime berserk? XD

yep, 'tis ;D

[Gadritan]

I don't know if higher risk/reward is a direction we want to go. Essentially you are asking for more farming for pop items with harder enemies making it easier to waste a whole lot of farming time for no reward.

What I think you mean is that you want more challenge and more reward. I think everyone wants that.

More challenge and more reward is high risk, high reward. It's high risk because it's more challenging...

The fact I just had to say that hurts my brain.

And I was talking about rage timers/drop rates on hnm.

Even then, that's the whole point ya know. You do realize it would balance out if you got a greater pool of drops per mob killed right? Those that excel at killing efficiently would gain an advantage, and rightly so.

The bitching about this always comes from the lower tier players who see their omgridill dreams slowly fading away knowing they can barely kill faf in under an hour to begin with.

It's ridiculous. Most of the better rare items are made so and put on more difficult mobs because they're not meant for the casual player. It's supposed to be a reward for excelling.

Don't forget your posting in Advanced.

[ringthree]

They'll have to make it so it's challenging in 5 years+ too. So far Kirin and AV have failed in this. It's not really as easy to do as some might think.

Do they? Kirin is decently hard, either fought straight up or melee-burned. Time's may vary but the process to get to Kirin is, I believe, a fundamentally good one. Kill 8 NM's (fought in a variety of ways), use drops to kill 4 harder NM's, use drops to kill 1 even harder NM.

Kirin isn't just Kirin but everything below him too.

I agree keeping it fresh for 5 year old content is going to be hard if not impossible but I look at it more like a stepping stone to higher end gear. The problem is that I can't think of another NM system that is as rewarding as Sky. They got worse (though not progressively) after Sky.

I know people hate sidegrades but I think small variations from current gear would be a good idea. There need to be more rewards in general in the game, even if they are small or marginal improvements. There is no reason why we can't have a +4 STR, +6 Great Katana skill, +6 Scythe skill neck piece, because it doesn't hurt the Justice Torque, but it can act as a new reward in the process to getting some bigger reward from something else.

This is what I find strange, it appears with gear and spells that SE is very, very concerned about game balance, but then they turn around and don't really care about game balance between the jobs. There really might be a problem with group think at SE when it comes to this game, or maybe it is just brain drain to work on Rapture or FFXIII and no one that is left wants to over step their bounds on the work that other people have done.

It does seem like it's time for some fresh thinking in end-game, because there is a ton of really good and fresh ideas in other parts of the game like FoV, Level Sync and Augments. It's time that end-game gets some focus from SE.

[ringthree]

More challenge and more reward is high risk, high reward. It's high risk because it's more challenging...

The fact I just had to say that hurts my brain.

And I was talking about rage timers/drop rates on hnm.

Even then, that's the whole point ya know. You do realize it would balance out if you got a greater pool of drops per mob killed right? Those that excel at killing efficiently would gain an advantage, and rightly so.

The bitching about this always comes from the lower tier players who see their omgridill dreams slowly fading away knowing they can barely kill faf in under an hour to begin with.

It's ridiculous. Most of the better rare items are made so and put on more difficult mobs because they're not meant for the casual player. It's supposed to be a reward for excelling.

Don't forget your posting in Advanced.

I know what you were talking about, and I am telling you that you might want to be careful what you wish for.

Higher risk is PW. Higher challenge is Salvage.

I know I am posting in Advanced thanks, and I also think you might not really know the vibe of advanced. Very few people consider Fafnir difficult anymore, it's about the claim and not the fight.

And that is kind of my point, a harder Fafnir that is instanced would be awesome if it had good drops. Even completely new end-game players can kill Fafnir, it is just about the claim.

Claiming sucks. Camping Kings doesn't mean you are a higher level of player, it doesn't mean anything at all. I have barely ever camped Kings, I have no interest in it at all. And I don't think I am being too arrogant if I say that I am a decent player with decent gear.

[Yabby]

I remember a Pld bud of mine getting mad a long time ago when I thought he was joking about Pld/War + AA rotation...

He's got an Aegis now... I was like "why not just Pld/Nin?"

Remember back then pld wasn't the powerhouse it is now. Getting and keeping hate voke was almost needed if you were not being tricked on. I do remember back in the day doing this and the question was asked (Why not sub /nin) which then the plds said, "Why not just come nin main" Next run we had two nin/wars instead... didn't use pld sense they buffed it after that.

[Max™]

I've camped Kings now, that was my biggest weakness before, having not experienced it.

I did it religiously, every window, as it cycled through JP time and back into NA time, for about two months... it's all kind of a blur honestly.

It's kinda fun to shit talk in DA, it's a big rush trying to actively claim on PS2 with a tommygun dart macro (FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKK, he popped directly behind me... *slow motion* TTTUUUURRRNNNN AAARRRROOOUUUNNNDDDD), it's AWESOME when someone manages to rage shit and wipe the whole zone.

It's nice seeing people get drops they've waited for, but it sucks ass going through streaks without claiming shit.

Con: You'd lose the drama potential and fun of bullshitting with "the cool kids" in the Aery.

Pro: You'd be able to fight the mobs on a regular schedule with your friends, and get the drops sooner or later.

I think they should both exist, cause while it did get boring as hell sometimes, it was really really really fucking fun running up to a raged fafnir to steel cyclone him in the ass for laughs before he ate me.


Also, I know Pld has been buffed lately, and the hate mechanics being understood dramatically changed the way you can play it, but I'm talking fairly recently people were still doing this shit. It's still hard to get some Pld's to /Nin.

It could also be that I, as a War, know the power and weakness of Voke.

Voke is not a hate tool, it is an attention getter.

[EternalSnow]

They'll have to make it so it's challenging in 5 years+ too. So far Kirin and AV have failed in this. It's not really as easy to do as some might think.



yep, 'tis ;D

zomg I love that fairy!! His name is Puk I believe <3 he is so nice and cool!!

[Gadritan]

I know I am posting in Advanced thanks, and I also think you might not really know the vibe of advanced. Very few people consider Fafnir difficult anymore, it's about the claim and not the fight.

That's my point.

I have barely ever camped Kings, I have no interest in it at all.

Then don't chime in on something you're not familiar with.

Camping Kings doesn't mean you are a higher level of player, it doesn't mean anything at all.

That's why you shouldn't even be discussing kings/hnms. There was a time when it actually did mean something. There was a time when it was more than just claiming. There was a time when it took skill to kill these.

SE let players evolve beyond the mobs by updating them far too little too late. That's the problem, and that's my point.

Kirin is decently hard, either fought straight up or melee-burned.

...

[ringthree]

That's my point.



Then don't chime in on something you're not familiar with.



That's why you shouldn't even be discussing kings/hnms. There was a time when it actually did mean something. There was a time when it was more than just claiming. There was a time when it took skill to kill these.

SE let players evolve beyond the mobs by updating them far too little too late. That's the problem, and that's my point.



...

/sigh I know this is going to turn into one of those "discussions" where you are doing to say something and I will respond and then you will say I am wrong and just repeat what you originally said.

But I will try anyway.

First, fighting Fafnir is not hard. You say I shouldn't talk about it because I don't have any experience with it but then you agree with me when I said it isn't about the fight it is only about the claim.

So which is it? Is it so easy that the claim is the only thing that matters, or is it so hard and scary difficult that I can't comment on it because I have never done it? Seriously make up your mind.

It doesn't take a some kind of hidden skill or knowledge to fight Fafnir, it takes a bot. A good player is a good player universally, whether fighting Fafnir or a Salvage boss.

Fighting a dragon day in and day out doesn't make you any more special or unique than I for doing Salvage day in and day out. You are using the logic of a fourth grader. You can learn everything you need to know about everything in the game from the wiki. We aren't talking about theoretical physics here, this is a freaking video game.

As for the Kirin statement, try reading beyond one line. It's really helpful not just for this conversation, but as a life skill.

Now, as I was saying, you aren't necessarily wrong about wanting more challenge, everyone wants that. What we don't want is artificial challenge, challenge that is based on shortened timers or stupidly inane puzzles that no one is going to figure out. Higher risk could just mean that a new end-game system could be like ZNM's except with lower drop rate on pop items and three more tiers before you get to the good gear.

I am just saying you should be careful what you wish for. More risk just means they make things more annoying than they already are. More real challenge is much more difficult to design. I do agree that SE has let the players evolve beyond almost all mobs at this point, but the solution to that is not another AV or PW or shortened timers, it is something like a more difficult Kirin.

[Gadritan]

First, fighting Fafnir is not hard. You say I shouldn't talk about it because I don't have any experience with it but then you agree with me when I said it isn't about the fight it is only about the claim.

So which is it? Is it so easy that the claim is the only thing that matters, or is it so hard and scary difficult that I can't comment on it because I have never done it? Seriously make up your mind

Seriously? Wonder why I said this:

There was a time when it actually did mean something. There was a time when it was more than just claiming. There was a time when it took skill to kill these.

SE let players evolve beyond the mobs by updating them far too little too late. That's the problem, and that's my point.

As for the Kirin statement, try reading beyond one line. It's really helpful not just for this conversation, but as a life skill.

k.

Kirin is decently hard, either fought straight up or melee-burned. Time's may vary but the process to get to Kirin is, I believe, a fundamentally good one. Kill 8 NM's (fought in a variety of ways), use drops to kill 4 harder NM's, use drops to kill 1 even harder NM.

The opening to your statement is that Kirin is decently hard in reference to actually fighting him. The rest of your statement is about the process you go through to pop him. Two separate issues. I was addressing the fact that you believe Kirin is "decently hard."

You should brush up on your reading comprehension skills. It's really helpful not just for this conversation, but as a life skill.

I do agree that SE has let the players evolve beyond almost all mobs at this point, but the solution to that is not another AV or PW or shortened timers, it is something like a more difficult Kirin

The reason that rage timers would have an impact is that it would require more than 5-6ppl to kill within the time allowed. It'd also help reduce the amount of time you can recover if things go sour, such as sleeping. The fight would have to be more flawless, which would require a higher level of talent.

These things would be obvious to you if you had some experience with it. A lot of us have spent too much time watching full alliances sleep him over and over and barely kill before rage because they're horrible players. These players wouldn't be able to do that anymore. They'd have to improve on their skills if they wanted a legitimate chance at killing him.

That's just one simple way to increase the difficulty on certain mobs. It's not groundbreaking, but I can assure you it'd have one hell of an impact on the lower tier LSs.

Instead of just saying they need to make something more difficult, I provided a very basic idea as to how they could do so. This is part of the reason rage timers were introduced to begin with. That, and it prevented players from holding them for 3hrs to keep them within their prime time. (Yes, that's right, originally they didn't rage.)

[ringthree]

The reason that rage timers would have an impact is that it would require more than 5-6ppl to kill within the time allowed. It'd also help reduce the amount of time you can recover if things go sour, such as sleeping. The fight would have to be more flawless, which would require a higher level of talent.

These things would be obvious to you if you had some experience with it. A lot of us have spent too much time watching full alliances sleep him over and over and barely kill before rage because they're horrible players. These players wouldn't be able to do that anymore. They'd have to improve on their skills if they wanted a legitimate chance at killing him.

That's just one simple way to increase the difficulty on certain mobs. It's not groundbreaking, but I can assure you it'd have one hell of an impact on the lower tier LSs.

Instead of just saying they need to make something more difficult, I provided a very basic idea as to how they could do so. This is part of the reason rage timers were introduced to begin with. That, and it prevented players from holding them for 3hrs to keep them within their prime time. (Yes, that's right, originally they didn't rage.)

I don't know if there is enough space in this thread for your ego and everyone else, but I will give it a try.

You are still contradicting yourself. Either Fafnir is so easy it can be killed with 5-6 or it's so scary hard I would know nothing about it because you assume I have never done it. I would like to ask though why watching Fafnir get slept over and over makes you a so much better player than I though. Please to be explaining.

Fake difficulty is reducing the timer. You just want it so you can get more claims not because you want more of a challenge. No one besides you and your LS care about your claims, everyone else cares about real challenge. Everyone wants mobs that are fun to fight instead of pops that just require a claim bot. Your concern about improving the skills of other players with timers is completely disingenuous.

You don't want challenge, you want claims. A timer doesn't make them harder for you, they just make them harder for other people. You only want that so you can get it more often.

I am going to go ahead and assert that game design shouldn't be based on increasing your claim rate on Fafnir. No one cares.