Endgame Rewards and Situational Gear

[Maxxthepenguin]

I completely, totally and in every way disagree. I would rather do (and have done) 4 no-drop Salvages in a row than suffer through Dynamis.

1 drop in Salvage in 20 runs is better than 1 Dynamis with 20 drops.

I was talking rewards, not enjoyability. Dynamis is a miserable slog, easily my most dreaded event, but you get currency (alexandrite doesn't really count at current drop rates and prices). You get gear. You even get crafting mats, some of which aren't completely worthless!

[Ruuz]

They don't even have to do it themselves. Have you ever looked at some of the dats that the FFXI player base make? Some are gorgeous with amazing detail. And i bet every one of them would say yes if SE asked if they could use them.

This was one thing I found very interesting in the LBR LM-17 podcast. There are so many people out there doing .dat mods that would be ecstatic to let SE use their work (with recognition of course), why not use this resource? SE could get work for free through contests or other avenues but they are just too narrow minded to do it.

[ringthree]

I was talking rewards, not enjoyability. Dynamis is a miserable slog, easily my most dreaded event, but you get currency (alexandrite doesn't really count at current drop rates and prices). You get gear. You even get crafting mats, some of which aren't completely worthless!

I still think the comparable rewards for both events massively favors Salvage.

[Gergall]

1. Because they are items you need to upgrade relics, and were rare in the past.

Have you looked at the prices the hourglass goblins charge for those items? They were NEVER even close to reasonable.

2000 coins for a Marksman's Oil
2500 for Lancewood Lumber
2800 for Mammoth Tusk

Yes, these items used to be more rare. A really, really long time ago. But coins were also more rare back then. Nobody has ever spent 2000 coins on a Marksman's Oil. I guarantee it.

[Yabby]

Actually, I don't agree. Some of them look pretty good in screen shots, but they in general have several problems including; they don't match the design of the game, they are two bright or too dark, they haven't made them for more than one character model, and most importantly, they aren't rendered properly so they clip or don't look natural during any character movement (especially breathing).

Then your just doing an overall to people trying to make this game look like something its not, which a lot of dats are I agree. But some of the dats are to perfection. The one i currently have as my blm AFv2 (Because the body is ugly as shit) has never gliched or done anything out of the ordinary. Not saying SE should pic the cloud dats from FFVII but there are many dats out there that go with the game design and even tho they love their PS2's are HD, which makes the game more enjoyable to me.

[Yugl]

I still think the comparable rewards for both events massively favors Salvage.

Not when you add in the fact that you have to pay for materials before you receive an item from Salvage.

[Yugl]

I still think the comparable rewards for both events massively favors Salvage.

Not when you add in the fact that you have to pay for materials before you receive an item from Salvage.

Edit: Aside from the disparity in drop rates, you must also consider the extra time spent attaining AP, the fact that you need three pieces of R/EX gear before you can complete a piece of gear, and the amount of gil spent buying new gear.

Can a Mod get rid of the old one?

[ErzaScarlet]

I like salvage infinitely more than Dynamis. Nothing is ever fun the 7000th time but I cant really say that Dynamis was even fun the first time. The drop rates in salvage may not favor everyone but personally i dont find them atrocious until you need that last specific piece to complete a set (35's from SSR).

I hear of too many salvage groups that are sloppy and only kill a few of the nms, even less if they have to go for boss, and its usually them who complain about the droprate. If you do it 6-7 times a week for 7 months you will have more than 1 set for 1 person, there is a luck factor but theres no reason that you wouln't have close to 4-6 completed sets. But this is assuming you can complete the maximum # of possible NM+Boss every run with 5-6 ppl.

You have to be on your game for salvage which is why i love it, people who are slow really stand out.

Dynamis does have a few exceptional pieces, but many have at this point been replaced. If you look at the quality of dynamis gear vs the quality of salvage gear and factor in the difficulty to obatin either piece IF you have a compitent group in each instance, dynamis gear is easier to get but the quality for most is exceptionally lower.

[ringthree]

Then your just doing an overall to people trying to make this game look like something its not, which a lot of dats are I agree. But some of the dats are to perfection. The one i currently have as my blm AFv2 (Because the body is ugly as shit) has never gliched or done anything out of the ordinary. Not saying SE should pic the cloud dats from FFVII but there are many dats out there that go with the game design and even tho they love their PS2's are HD, which makes the game more enjoyable to me.

I have heard people say they like their dats and all, but in the end they still have the problems I listed.

People love their own artwork, but it's just like Deviant art, tons of pieces of art and only the smallest fraction of it is worth anything at all.

[Yugl]

It'd not a comparison of Salvage v Dynamis gear, it's a comparison of whether your investment is worthwhile. Dynamis has better drop rates and immediate rewards. Salvage puts you to work even after acquiring three pieces, which in itself is a lot of work. Even with such a vast disparity between the two, some Salvage pieces are replaceable (For Example, BLU Relic > Morrigans).

[ringthree]

It'd not a comparison of Salvage v Dynamis gear, it's a comparison of whether your investment is worthwhile. Dynamis has better drop rates and immediate rewards. Salvage puts you to work even after acquiring three pieces, which in itself is a lot of work. Even with such a vast disparity between the two, some Salvage pieces are replaceable (For Example, BLU Relic > Morrigans).

Ummm... what? 99% of Salvage gear is better than Dynamis gear. Better drop rates and immediate rewards don't matter if those rewards are useless.

Why does everyone say that Salvage gear costs so much? Only the body is expensive, and the head is marginally so, the rest of the gear is incredibly cheap.

[Yugl]

Ummm... what? 99% of Salvage gear is better than Dynamis gear. Better drop rates and immediate rewards don't matter if those rewards are useless.

The discussion was whether the rewards of an event mirror the amount of investment made into said event. Since this is the criteria by which we're judging the events, the goal is not to compare Salvage and Dynamis gear. The goal is to compare the amount of time invested in Dynamis v Rewards with the amount of time invested in Salvage v Rewards.

It's obvious that Salvage gear trumps Dynamis gear for most classes, but that doesn't mean the inpututput ratio is for Salvage gear is better. You could pay one person one dollar to carry a stone across town. You could pay another person one hundred dollars to carry three boulders across town. Obviously the one hundred dollar reward is greater, but I doubt the inpututput ratio of the boulder assignment is better than the inpututput ratio of the stone assignment. Now that I've explained the unnecessary analogy, apply this concept to the discussion.

Compare the the best situations in both cases. In Dynamis, that would be showing up for one run and having the piece you want drop. In Salvage, that would require three AP runs, three Salvage runs, and three drops. Even after all those are accounted for, you still need to obtain the money to pay for synthesis materials to give the NPC. Now consider a less pleasant situation. After 8473487388374387483743737 runs, you still don't have a single piece of gear from Dynamis or Salvage. What have you invested? For Dynamis, it's just the run itself that occurs only two times a week. For Salvage, it's the AP runs and the Salvage run itself. However, unlike Dynamis, you're optimally obtaining AP and entering salvage roughly 6x a week.

I leave the decision of which has better inpututput for you to decide since you're entitled to your own opinion. However, the way I see it, the "best situation" favors salvage while the "Less pleasant situation" favors Dynamis. Since most cases actually lean towards the "Less pleasant situation", I would argue that on average, you get more out of your investment from Dynamis. Also, don't forget to include relics.

[Malacite]

Well, this is only the first installment of Customizable gear. I fully expect there will be more in future updates and the next 2 mini-expansions. In fact, I'd say it's a fairly safe bet both the Shantotto and Moogle expansions will offer an item similar to what ACP gave us (if not a continuation of those 3 sets) just on a different slot. At least that's my hope.


As far as making augments random though, that I find is bullcrap. I don't mind it so much when it's a reward from a casket, but when we go to augment gear we already have it would be nice to be able to pick it.

I mean think about it, it's bad enough that rewards from things like BC's are totally random, but when you do get the drop you want only to have it come with a random set of buffs... quite simply it's ridiculous. They'll likely get better in the coming updates though (I can't WAIT to see what augments we can get out of the beastman areas and Xarc!)

[ringthree]

The discussion was whether the rewards of an event mirror the amount of investment made into said event. Since this is the criteria by which we're judging the events, the goal is not to compare Salvage and Dynamis gear. The goal is to compare the amount of time invested in Dynamis v Rewards with the amount of time invested in Salvage v Rewards.

I understand this and I still conclude: Salvage Time * Salvage Reward > Dynamis Time * Dynamis Reward.

It's obvious that Salvage gear trumps Dynamis gear for most classes, but that doesn't mean the inpututput ratio is for Salvage gear is better. You could pay one person one dollar to carry a stone across town. You could pay another person one hundred dollars to carry three boulders across town. Obviously the one hundred dollar reward is greater, but I doubt the inpututput ratio of the boulder assignment is better than the inpututput ratio of the stone assignment. Now that I've explained the unnecessary analogy, apply this concept to the discussion.

You are right, it was an unnecessary analogy and it didn't make any sense. Please see the equation listed above.

Compare the the best situations in both cases. In Dynamis, that would be showing up for one run and having the piece you want drop. In Salvage, that would require three AP runs, three Salvage runs, and three drops. Even after all those are accounted for, you still need to obtain the money to pay for synthesis materials to give the NPC. Now consider a less pleasant situation. After 8473487388374387483743737 runs, you still don't have a single piece of gear from Dynamis or Salvage. What have you invested? For Dynamis, it's just the run itself that occurs only two times a week. For Salvage, it's the AP runs and the Salvage run itself. However, unlike Dynamis, you're optimally obtaining AP and entering salvage roughly 6x a week.

1. Dynamis is close to 8 hours a week in huge 4 hour chunks. Salvage is much better distributed.

2. You obviously haven't done much if any Salvage because you keep repeating that all the pieces cost a lot of money. I already went over that above.

3. Spending time getting crappy gear is wasted time. A large majority of AF2 is completely useless. A small minority of Salvage gear is useless.

I leave the decision of which has better inpututput for you to decide since you're entitled to your own opinion. However, the way I see it, the "best situation" favors salvage while the "Less pleasant situation" favors Dynamis. Since most cases actually lean towards the "Less pleasant situation", I would argue that on average, you get more out of your investment from Dynamis. Also, don't forget to include relics.

What you said here makes no sense.

And Salvage has Mythics. For the most part, neither relics or mythics have a good time, cost, reward ratio.

[Yabby]

I like salvage infinitely more than Dynamis. Nothing is ever fun the 7000th time but I cant really say that Dynamis was even fun the first time. The drop rates in salvage may not favor everyone but personally i dont find them atrocious until you need that last specific piece to complete a set (35's from SSR).

I hear of too many salvage groups that are sloppy and only kill a few of the nms, even less if they have to go for boss, and its usually them who complain about the droprate. If you do it 6-7 times a week for 7 months you will have more than 1 set for 1 person, there is a luck factor but theres no reason that you wouln't have close to 4-6 completed sets. But this is assuming you can complete the maximum # of possible NM+Boss every run with 5-6 ppl.

You have to be on your game for salvage which is why i love it, people who are slow really stand out.

Dynamis does have a few exceptional pieces, but many have at this point been replaced. If you look at the quality of dynamis gear vs the quality of salvage gear and factor in the difficulty to obatin either piece IF you have a compitent group in each instance, dynamis gear is easier to get but the quality for most is exceptionally lower.

We kill all NM's and boss in our SSR runs..... 0/232 on turtle. 21 of those are after the update. Fuck SSR, and fuck the .0002 upped % in drop rates

[Yugl]

I understand this and I still conclude: Salvage Time * Salvage Reward > Dynamis Time * Dynamis Reward.

Your logic is twisted and fails to access the situation at hand. If it were as you described it, working for 20hrs and making 5 dollars is better than working for 10hrs and making 5 dollars. Obviously it is better because Time*Reward for the former is better than the latter right? Again, your logic is flawed.

You are right, it was an unnecessary analogy and it didn't make any sense. Please see the equation listed above.

I'll admit the analogy was bad, but your equation was worse. Why the hell would you multiple time by reward and say that the greater number is the better event? Basically what you're saying is that an event that takes forever with very little reward is better than an event that takes little time for respectively little reward. That kind of logic only supports SE's Kings HNM system. Not only is it a shitty method of comparing events, but it also forgets to include drop rates and the fact that Salvage doesn't drop the gear. So basically, your equation says 50 hrs work with a .00001% chance at getting (1/3) of 5 dollars is better than 5min work with a 5% chance at getting 5 dollars. That may an exaggerated example of Salvage v Dynamis, but it does show the flaw in your equation.

1. Dynamis is close to 8 hours a week in huge 4 hour chunks. Salvage is much better distributed.

I would much rather have to burn through four hours a week than be forced onto the game everyday. Salvage is 100min + wait time + 30min AP Assault + Finding Members. That's roughly 140 everyday if being lenient. Doing six Salvages a week equates to 14hrs work.

2. You obviously haven't done much if any Salvage because you keep repeating that all the pieces cost a lot of money. I already went over that above.

I didn't say they all cost a lot of money, I said they all cost money, which makes them indirect drops. Also, I doubt many people can ignore the costs of body pieces after having to deal with the shitty drop rates associated with them.

3. Spending time getting crappy gear is wasted time. A large majority of AF2 is completely useless. A small minority of Salvage gear is useless.

Then don't do the area. If you're goal is to farm Relics, then you'll go to places that have better pieces. If not, then you're going to a place that has better pieces for someone else. The comparison is done under the assumption that in both cases, you have valuable pieces worth going for.

I know what you're trying to do. You're looking at ALL the pieces Dynamis has to offer and comparing it with ALL the pieces Salvage has to offer. The problem is that you're not forced to go for all those pieces. Just the ones that are of value. Having said that, in the context of Input v Output for Salvage and Dynamis, Dynamis wins.

What you said here makes no sense.

Best case scenario for Salvage is better than best case scenario for Dynamis. However, worst case scenario for Dynamis is better than worst cast scenario for Salvage. Since the average scenario leans towards the worst case scenario, Dynamis wins.

And Salvage has Mythics. For the most part, neither relics or mythics have a good time, cost, reward ratio.

I mentioned relics because they're a byproduct of Dynamis, which you can do while obtaining relics. Relics are mostly about the coins and attestation. Mythics require a truck ton of other stuff to be done outside of Salvage itself.

If not going for relics, then you could also argue that Dynamis brings in more money than Salvage. In either case, Dynamis wins within the currency department as well.

[ErzaScarlet]

Your logic is twisted and fails to access the situation at hand. If it were as you described it, working for 20hrs and making 5 dollars is better than working for 10hrs and making 5 dollars. Obviously it is better because Time*Reward for the former is better than the latter right? Again, your logic is flawed.



I'll admit the analogy was bad, but your equation was worse. Why the hell would you multiple time by reward and say that the greater number is the better event? Basically what you're saying is that an event that takes forever with very little reward is better than an event that takes little time for respectively little reward. That kind of logic only supports SE's Kings HNM system. Not only is it a shitty method of comparing events, but it also forgets to include drop rates and the fact that Salvage doesn't drop the gear. So basically, your equation says 50 hrs work with a .00001% chance at getting (1/3) of 5 dollars is better than 5min work with a 5% chance at getting 5 dollars. That may an exaggerated example of Salvage v Dynamis, but it does show the flaw in your equation.

What I got from his equation was that you could put a rating on "Salvage Time","Salvage Reward", "Dynamis Time", "Dynamis Reward" and it would be a lower rating for more time spent. For me the rating of "Dynamis Time" would incorporate how long it actually feels like so 4 hours would be worth 12h.

I would much rather have to burn through four hours a week than be forced onto the game everyday. Salvage is 100min + wait time + 30min AP Assault + Finding Members. That's roughly 140 everyday if being lenient. Doing six Salvages a week equates to 14hrs work.

Our assault take about 5 min, if you dont have RvB then thats too bad. What does "Finding members" mean? You dont have a set group of people? No wonder you hate this.

I didn't say they all cost a lot of money, I said they all cost money, which makes them indirect drops. Also, I doubt many people can ignore the costs of body pieces after having to deal with the shitty drop rates associated with them.

ANNM/ISNM have made my body upgrades free. I have all the mats waiting.



Theres a lot of talking and some of it is pertinent and some of it just made me think you have heavy bias towards Dynamis.

Even though they are expensive its not that hard to make the money, if youre an advanced player you should be able to make gil.

Salvage for some people is aweful because you have a bad group or you dont like it. That doesnt make it bad overall.

[Ruuz]

Ringthree meant to use this equation:

Salvage Reward/Salvage Time > Dynamis Reward/Dynamis Time

Otherwise he is just bat-fucking-crazy.

[Yugl]

What I got from his equation was that you could put a rating on "Salvage Time","Salvage Reward", "Dynamis Time", "Dynamis Reward" and it would be a lower rating for more time spent. For me the rating of "Dynamis Time" would incorporate how long it actually feels like so 4 hours would be worth 12h.

Sorry, but that's just trying to twist something obviously wrong into a definition that will "fit" your argument. Time is time no matter how you cut it. Just because it "feels" like it has not been three hours, that does not mean it has not been three hours. Furthermore, there was no mention of "how it feels", and anyone trying to make a coherent argument would do so if that's the point they're trying to make. Especially someone who is going to criticize an analogy then point back at their equation.

Our assault take about 5 min, if you dont have RvB then thats too bad. What does "Finding members" mean? You dont have a set group of people? No wonder you hate this.

Sorry, but not all groups are like your group. It's absurd how everyone thinks the world is just like them. "Hey if I can go from broke to billions over night so can the next guy!". Personally I think it's this class mobility model that liberal regimes promote that foster this type of thinking, but that's a discussion for PMs.

The fact is that different groups have different ways of obtaining points. I know of two Salvage groups that do not obtain points as a group. Personally, I stopped doing Salvage because I looked at the time wasted v the amount of drops/upgrade I received and decided it was not worth the time. Even if you don't include the time spent obtaining AP, 6x (Should be 7 to max out the week) Salvage is more time than 2x Dynamis. Either way, your point is irrelevant.

ANNM/ISNM have made my body upgrades free. I have all the mats waiting.

Then instead of adding gil to the equation you add time spent. I can tell you're looking at this from a very personalized perspective because for those who do ANNM and ISNM without a close-nit group, 380k isn't something five members will willingly pass up.

Don't forget that the amount of gil spent buying synthesis materials could go towards other goals or gear. I know some of you will comeback with the "I have nothing else to spend!" crap, but for once stop thinking of yourself and think about it from a general perspective.

Theres a lot of talking and some of it is pertinent and some of it just made me think you have heavy bias towards Dynamis.

Even though they are expensive its not that hard to make the money, if youre an advanced player you should be able to make gil.

Salvage for some people is aweful because you have a bad group or you dont like it. That doesnt make it bad overall.

I understand that what I am saying may come off as bias. However, I assure you it's because Dynamis has the better Input to Output ratio. I remind you that the discussion is about investment v rewards. I too find Salvage more fun than Dynamis, but if you rationally think about the investments that go into Dynamis v rewards and compare that to salvage, you'll find that Dynamis has better returns.

Again, Salvage is not "bad", it just does not return as much as Dynamis.

[Sho]

Why do the hourglass goblins sell common AHable drops for 1000+ dynamis coins?
Why was Hydra added as an HNM with no rewards?
Why was PUP added as a playable job?

PUP jokes are played out, dude.

To chime in, I don't believe that time spent putting into Salvage means very much anymore, since drop rates for the most part was raise only incrementally.