Dune Boots and Fuma Kyahan

[Shinryuu]

So, as I was chattering with my good friend drwaffles, the lame Dune vs. Fuma debate came up (he's leveling MNK). It motivated me to redo the math. It's been done before on KI, I think, but I don't trust KI. I made an excel spreadsheet where the inputs are:

On the Fuma side:
- Haste before Fuma

On the Kick side:
- H2H skill, to calculate base DMG (allowing for not-75)
- The +DMG from weapons (allowing for not-Destroyers)
- The +DMG for kicks from shoes (allowing for not-Dune)
- Double attack rate
- Kick attack rate
- TP/WS ratio

Now, neither option alters pDIF or hitrate in any way, so these factors can be left out.

To compare fuma to a basic setting, it's easy: (1/(1-haste+fuma))/(1/(1-hastenofuma))

To compare +kick DMG to a basic setting without kick DMG, I need to average out the DMG. For 100 attack rounds, I punch 200 times (more with double attack) and kick 15 times. Hypothetical (the excel sheat allows for changes):

- 35 DMG (base) + 4 fSTR DMG + 18 DMG (Destroyers) = 57 punch DMG
- 35 DMG + 4 DMG = 39 DMG
- 35 DMG + 4 DMG + 30 DMG (Dunes) = 69 DMG

- 200*57+15*39 divided by 215 gives an average DMG of 55,74.
- 200*57+15*69 gives an average DMG of 57,83.

This is an increase of 3,75% damage during the TP phase. Since kicking w/ Dunes does not grant a WS frequency bonus, we have to multiply the TP returns by WS/TP ratio for the total increase in damage. I took a WS/TP ratio of 80/20, or .8. The total damage increase for Dunes in this setting is therefore 3%.

Fuma, meanwhile, have a base damage increase through faster swings and WS frequency of 3,09% with zero additional haste.

Is my math correct? Having always advocated Fuma, I have tried to be as neutral as possible and even skewed the setting in Dune's favor (.8 TP/WS ratio, no haste, semi-low fSTR, no double attack). These are just the results.

Setting I just described:

Spoiler: show

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/...umaanddune.png

A typical merit setting:

Spoiler: show

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y9/...dune2merit.png

[rog]

olde news is olde.

[Shinryuu]

I've been hearing "cutoff point is 40% haste", "Dunes always wins", "Federation Kyahan even beat Fuma!" in the span of a day. It could be it's just Remora, it could be that my math is off and they're right, but it also could be this needs to be spread more.

[evilpaul]

I wish somebody would let me sub war in merits. >.>

[Shinryuu]

Just do it. Birds only, of course. With good accuracy gear (Noritsune, Cuchulain's, PCC, Shura, Blood/Woodsman, Byakko's, Minuet ear, Tiphia is what I use) and Counterstance your counter rate will be sufficiently high to negate lots of damage. Peckings do 600ish, so your RDM has to heal you a little sooner than usual, I guess.

[Kohan]

Just do it. Birds only, of course. With good accuracy gear (Noritsune, Cuchulain's, PCC, Shura, Blood/Woodsman, Byakko's, Minuet ear, Tiphia is what I use) and Counterstance your counter rate will be sufficiently high to negate lots of damage.

Truthfully -- although this much ACC is indisputably ideal -- you don't need a top-of-the-line setup to have a satisfactory Counter rate. I'm missing a few of those pieces of equipment, but I'm perfectly fine subbing WAR at birds. Our WHM/SCH or RDM never has problems with MP management, even in the rare cases of uncooperative linkage.

I mention this mainly so people aren't discouraged from subbing WAR at birds. They should still shoot to have the equipment you've mentioned if they don't already.

The only reasons you wouldn't sub WAR is because you're with support you can't trust, or everyone else in your PT is a terrible gimp, and -- as a result -- will never share hate with you.

That aside, anyone telling you that Dunes unconditionally beats Fuma and so on, so forth, is misinformed or simply ignorant. If you're worried about this news being, well, "news," it isn't -- even Effen years ago wrote that people should use Byakko's and Fuma Kyahan. 'Course, he also recommended STR rings, but still. This is pretty old info.

Doesn't hurt to take the blinders off the fools on your server, though.

[Raineer]

Just do it. Birds only, of course. With good accuracy gear (Noritsune, Cuchulain's, PCC, Shura, Blood/Woodsman, Byakko's, Minuet ear, Tiphia is what I use) and Counterstance your counter rate will be sufficiently high to negate lots of damage. Peckings do 600ish, so your RDM has to heal you a little sooner than usual, I guess.

Just kill shit faster and I'm good with it.

[Moridam]

I wish somebody would let me sub war in merits. >.>

It's completely fine to use on birds, just make sure you have a couple of decent DD's and you should have no problems going /war to merit. Only issue I ever have is with random pickup retards complaining ad nauseam about how its bad because it requires spending a little MP.

[Amarok!]

Well I found this interesting, thanks for putting it together.

How do crits factor in? Also if you have 5/5 kick attack merits and 4/4 crits and you're at lvl 75, I'm guessing its a no brainer.

*edit* I fulltime dune's and macro in fuma's during utsusemi Ni (and evasion gear for Ichi).
*edit 2* I also fulltime Monk AF2 legs for +kick attack rate. I don't have Byakko's to compare though.

[Akyrey90]

I wish somebody would let me sub war in merits. >.>

as rdm i'd love u /wat!:D

[Starr]

tl;dr 3% Haste>Dune Boots?

[mdkuser]

The people promoting dune boots generally completly forget that haste increase ws frenquency as well as melee frequency, and are all the better that your base haste is high. Gonna try to read your math carefully..

[Shinryuu]

Well I found this interesting, thanks for putting it together.

How do crits factor in? Also if you have 5/5 kick attack merits and 4/4 crits and you're at lvl 75, I'm guessing its a no brainer.

*edit* I fulltime dune's and macro in fuma's during utsusemi Ni (and evasion gear for Ichi).
*edit 2* I also fulltime Monk AF2 legs for +kick attack rate. I don't have Byakko's to compare though.

Crits affect the average pDIF. They're not a factor in the Fuma vs. Dune comparison.

With 20% kick proc, and a brown belt as the only haste option, Fuma still win.

[mdkuser]

Well I found this interesting, thanks for putting it together.

How do crits factor in? Also if you have 5/5 kick attack merits and 4/4 crits and you're at lvl 75, I'm guessing its a no brainer.

*edit* I fulltime dune's and macro in fuma's during utsusemi Ni (and evasion gear for Ichi).
*edit 2* I also fulltime Monk AF2 legs for +kick attack rate. I don't have Byakko's to compare though.

I think af2 leg + dune boots is your best option if you dont have byakkos

[Shinryuu]

Let me check that!

I fill in .2 for Kick attack %, you have Destroyers, a brown belt, a Walahra turban, and we assume you don't get March. An fSTR of 4 or so (doesn't matter much). Brutal I sure hope so, DA is .05. TP/WS ratio of .7.

Fuma's return is 3,57%, Dune's return is 3,55%.

Even with relic legs and only the most basic of haste gear, and no haste songs or spells, Fuma win.

[Nadrojj]

1. You are friends with DrWaffles, he's gay so that means you are gay which means I hate this thread and i hope it burns down.

2. WTF no byakkos?

3. Fumas are the winner, unless you need to feel more kun fu, then go kick more with the kicking shoes.

<3 Waffles.

[mdkuser]

cool. Ok what about barbarossa legs + fumas vs barbarossa legs + dunes?

[Acturus]

The answer is Usukane Sune-Ate.

[Shin Volcano]

I still prefer dune boots for just better overall damage output, the only thing fumas provided for me was inventory space -1 and unessassary ichi/ni blinking, if you have maxed kicked attack merits the dune boots seem like a better option, unless whatever you are fighting takes a while to kill, but in merits nothing lasts longer then 30 seconds, so i'm not sure why fumas in an option. up to the user i guess?

Only thing i would replace them with is Usukane feet, but i still need to test them out, for more then just an asuran fist macro, untill full set. Am i the only MNK who uses foot work...? cause under /war with dune boots that's about nonestop tanking.....after 1 dragon kick..

[Shinryuu]

Did you not read the OP? ;_;

Hay rog, this is why I posted this.

1. You are friends with DrWaffles, he's gay so that means you are gay which means I hate this thread and i hope it burns down.

YOUR MOTHER IS GAY

And yes, Usukane are of course the best option in like 90% of all situations.