Pld/rdm

[orson]

/DRK isn't necessarily better for enmity, it does have some VE spikes though. /RDM, by the way, also gives fast cast.

and way more damage mitigation than /Drk.

[Sephknight]

I disagree, drk have more Enm tools than rdm , flash-stun rotation is rly nice.
Rdm does have dmg mitigation, but enm wise, drk offers a lot more,
Stun, very high enm JA, u still keep sleep,
No fast cast, but cant have it all D=.
I was lol/drk until i tryed , perfect example is Ugy pendant NM, where u cant be close at range or spend to much time casting thins like sleep, dispel etc from rdm.

[Limlight]

the only time I ever really use /drk is for KB kiting and then its beyond godly.

flash, stun, bind, sleep, sentinel, rampart, souleater, last resort etc etc Just need some form of haste/refresh, and use your distance plugin to time your spells and you will not get hit outside of aoe stun. I use it for most things we kite, but thats really only KB anymore. I like it over /rdm mostly because of stun. Flash/Stun is just siiiiiiiiiiiiiiick. But ya /rdm is definitely more versatile and a better option when you will be taking hits.

[Hosom]

/Drk: Commonly used for Dynamis, Kiting, Einherjar. Has multiple abilities that give large amounts of VE.

Last Resort: VE - 1300 CE - 1
Souleater: VE - 1300 CE - 1

Poison: VE - 320 CE - 1
Sleep: VE - 320 CE - 320
Stun: VE - 1280 CE - 180
Bind: VE - 640 CE - 1

/Rdm: Shines in JoL and Ouryu Cometh fights the most, incredibly good at keeping hate and reducing magic damage.

Also commonly used for the final ACP mission.

Blind: VE - 640 CE - 1
Bind: VE - 640 CE - 1
Dispel: VE - 320 CE - 320
Sleep: VE - 320 CE - 320

The VE values are lower on Blind and other spells /Rdm offers, however, you can cast approx. 3 Blinds in the time that it takes to cast one Stun....and on top of that, you can cast Blind in more enmity than you can Stun due to the fact that you're most likely going to want your Stun recast as low as possible, while Blind has an extremely low recast (10 seconds base, but /Rdm will have a lower base recast because of fast cast)

Also, keep in mind that damage results in hate loss, so reducing damage via Stoneskin and Phalanx will also reduce the amount of hate lost.

tl;dr: If you're fighting something that dies incredibly fast /drk will be better than Rdm, however, anything that lasts more than about 45 seconds I think it would be a safe assumption that the pld/rdm will pull far ahead of the pld/drk.

[orson]

/Rdm is going to allow to cap CE faster than any other sub. If you're in a situation where capping VE is better you're probably just as well off as going as /War so you have defender. The only damage mitigation that /Drk offers is the small amount of damage saved by stun. I can see /Drk being ok for kiting but apart from that you're just going to get chewed up. I can't see it having better enmity control over /War, /Nin, or /Rdm in most situations.

[Limlight]

we have a couple guys with aegis and all the sick pld gear. They still do the standard /war for KB and such. After about 4-5 min Their vokes/flashes stop having any effect to get it off me and around the 10 min mark nothing works lol

[Redshift]

On anything that lives long enough to care and you want hate, /RDM is a lot better than /DRK. You don't need /DRK to cap VE, so why not just sub RDM for more CE and MDB? PLD/nothing can nearly cap VE in the first 10s, Sentinel > Bash > Flash > Cure4.

[Sephknight]

I was speaking for a short time enm wise,
of course if u have the time u will build more enm with rdm sub, or if u get hit the enm will decay from drk,
That being said it should not be discarted as for kiting thins u get barely hit on and u just need to keep the mob on you IMO i still think is best,
No one was talking out /war or /nin ,
Im always /nin 99% of the time anyways ;;.
As for Acp
I only have done the fight 3 times,
First time whent nin, waste of sub
Second time came rdm, it was okay but still got charmed-interrupted- from drawin and long cast spells,
Third time came /drk run and rotate flash stun and JA, never lost hate or got charmed once.

All 3 wins also.
Another example, is the goldtongued tornberry,the ugy pendant mob, he only casts death and such , never melee, but the window for ur actions before going outside of 30´´00 ,< his casting range> is rly rly short, so u dont have time to get close to voke range, or cast rdm sleep-etc, or get death on ur face,
Flash stun, JA ull never loose hate and blm can go all out and with pld + blm u can make this fight a 10-15min worth , at most,
I could continue talking bout /drk but anyways , is my opinion about this underrated sub.
Every sub got their pros and cons.All situational and how you use it.

[Hosom]

As for Acp
I only have done the fight 3 times,
First time whent nin, waste of sub
Second time came rdm, it was okay but still got charmed-interrupted- from drawin and long cast spells,
Third time came /drk run and rotate flash stun and JA, never lost hate or got charmed once.

Sorry, but what does your sub have to do with whether or not you're charmed?

Another example, is the goldtongued tornberry,the ugy pendant mob, he only casts death and such , never melee, but the window for ur actions before going outside of 30´´00 ,< his casting range> is rly rly short, so u dont have time to get close to voke range, or cast rdm sleep-etc, or get death on ur face,
Flash stun, JA ull never loose hate and blm can go all out and with pld + blm u can make this fight a 10-15min worth , at most,
I could continue talking bout /drk but anyways , is my opinion about this underrated sub.
Every sub got their pros and cons.All situational and how you use it.

/Drk was mentioned as a kiting sub, no one is arguing with you on this.

[Sephknight]

You just run out of aoe range after every draw in, it wont charm you, u will be out of range90% of the time, cast flash/stun max cast distance right before draw in,is more flexible than sub rdm becouse all u need to cast is stun mainly .Rdm buffs and offensive spells even with fastcast do take time .

[Pirian]

we have a couple guys with aegis and all the sick pld gear. They still do the standard /war for KB and such. After about 4-5 min Their vokes/flashes stop having any effect to get it off me and around the 10 min mark nothing works lol

This is because /war is horrible. Please forward all your plds to This thread. I can't remember the the last time I /war on PLD. /nin for lolsky god and ground kings, /drk for KB, and /rdm for basically everything else. With 3 auto-refresh outside toau areas (Job trait, Parade Gorget, Ares) I don't run out of mp as long as here is at least one other form of refresh. Between chivalry and devotion, even if you happen to run out of mp, you should have a steady supply ready.

[Rilu]

I myself have alot of trouble keeping up with MP as PLD/RDM, I may just be doing it wrong but it seems like I need a whole lot of support to make it work.

You don't need a whole lot of support, you just need me as your bard, then you are fine.

Honestly, outside of JOL and Ouryu, I don't see a big increase in effectiveness with /rdm. I would not take /rdm to Ixion, but then again, thats probably because we down it in like 25-30 minutes, and I can just see way too much damage from attacks being a problem is all. I'm a HUGE proponent of /nin on Ixion, saves a LOT of MP from the support players having to constantly hit tank with erase. I definitely wouldn't use it in an exp party situation or on weapons.

[Shenrien]

This is because /war is horrible. Please forward all your plds to This thread. I can't remember the the last time I /war on PLD. /nin for lolsky god and ground kings, /drk for KB, and /rdm for basically everything else. With 3 auto-refresh outside toau areas (Job trait, Parade Gorget, Ares) I don't run out of mp as long as here is at least one other form of refresh. Between chivalry and devotion, even if you happen to run out of mp, you should have a steady supply ready.

Congratulations. I've been playing 3 months and I don't have an Ares and as much as I would like one, that's just not in the budget right now, and I don't think people are going to be to thrilled about their tank wearing their Royal's Cloak for that 1 extra refresh tick lol.

I want Ares so badly but I don't see myself getting 9mil anytime soon.

[Stiker]

The reason /RDM works so well on the ACP final mission is because your hate tools are all magic attacks and not just your JAs. What I did on the that fight as PLD/RDM was Flash > dump all JAs and 2hr and then ran to a corner by the stairs.

I kept running constantly after draw in and tried to cast spells short in casting time like Blind and Flash as often as possible in between. I would also try to fit Dispels in as well if I could. When -agas were being cast, I would put my stoneskin back up. Also when the charm move was used, since it takes a while, I would be able to fire off more hate spells as well. I only lost hate a couple of times to our Ranger, but was able to get it back very quickly.

As people have said, the real strength of /RDM tanking is being able to build up your CE very fast to cap, allowing you to maintain hate control rather easily and also get it back quickly if you loose it. This espicially shines in fights that last for a long time.

[Raineer]

You don't need a whole lot of support, you just need me as your bard, then you are fine.

Honestly, outside of JOL and Ouryu, I don't see a big increase in effectiveness with /rdm. I would not take /rdm to Ixion, but then again, thats probably because we down it in like 25-30 minutes, and I can just see way too much damage from attacks being a problem is all. I'm a HUGE proponent of /nin on Ixion, saves a LOT of MP from the support players having to constantly hit tank with erase. I definitely wouldn't use it in an exp party situation or on weapons.

There's always the caveat to choosing /RDM that "if it won't kill you to do so, go /RDM", this is said as a function of hate and not as MP savings. The MP savings of /NIN cannot be denied.

(Dating myself), the first time we went from PLD/WAR+AA to PLD/NIN on tiamat this was clear as day. /NIN is guaranteed to save a ton of MP from the healers, at the tradeoff of hate.

If you want "as close as possible to capped hate" the highest percentage of the time, you would pick /RDM. If your tank won't live through that choice, then yes it's gotta be /NIN. /DRK falls into the discussion of course, it is also great for hate but not as high up the list for dmg mitigation.

[gratis]

pld/sch onry!

[Pirian]

Congratulations. I've been playing 3 months and I don't have an Ares and as much as I would like one, that's just not in the budget right now, and I don't think people are going to be to thrilled about their tank wearing their Royal's Cloak for that 1 extra refresh tick lol.

I want Ares so badly but I don't see myself getting 9mil anytime soon.

Only place you can't get 3 auto tic is RoZ areas. All other areas you can get sanction refresh or sigil refresh. Only thing I personally do /rdm in RoZ areas is dynamis, which most people still /war because being lazy is nice, and just messing around doing odds and ends things, which you don't need 3 auto tic and ethereal is probably going to help more.

[Max™]

Technically you can get 1 hour of 3 Autotic anywhere, or 4 in other zones, but you gotta get FoV refresh which doesn't stack with the spell refresh.

[Binkie]

Also about ACP11 if you start to cast stoneskin and get drawn in, you can run back to the nook in the wall and finish your cast. The game only checks if you've moved @ the end of cast. It pwns.

[Furionstormrage]

Beyond the obvious JOL and Ouryu, I find myself having a PLD/RDM in a crowd control position in Dynamis and Einherjar, although I will admit that we've recently been using BLU with good results.