DD Potential Discussion from Media

[Raen Ryong]

NIN > DRK at DDing anything cept Zerg fight or Apoc. DRK.

I'm gonna get trolled but...

High attack vs low attack
High accuracy vs low accuracy
High D vs low D
Strong 1hit WS vs Nothing
Strong 4hit WS vs Volatile multihit WS
Great equipment selection vs Decent equipment selection

NIN has some cons such as its DoT but that will be hindered by its low acc/atk compared to DRK; sushi or meat... one compromises the other on most mobs.

These are only some of the things too, before we look at Stun etc...

[Rikura]

Seems kind of silly to even compare NIN to like, any competent 2H DD. I'm sure I can outparse whackos on THF or MNK, but that doesn't conclusively say anything about the potential of another job, just the incompetence of said player.

Anyway, you don't know Tubbers. He's a freaking clown.

When I look into a mirror, I do not see a porch monkey staring back. You sir, are racist! But if you're being jovial, this hamster expresses the same attitude.

[Topher]

Its too bad I am comparing it to DRK, which isn't competent without Full Haste Build and Multi-Hit/Apoc.

Also Porch Monkey isn't a racist comment where I am from... sorry to disappoint.

This my last post in this Tread... don't want this to go on anymore, Peace!

[Zilong]

Haha no

Seriously, we had our time in the spotlight, now it's time to level SAM to use your NIN gear if you honestly want to compete with 2 hander.

[Plow]

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3...lffxiv2od8.jpg

Reposted for profit.

Yeah I know, lolPUP really isn't lolPUP anymore, imo they rock now.

uh, drk/sam was the shit during penta spam/relic knuckle days, 45 average tp return from guillo

[BlackMoomba]

7 pages in, and still noone is defending Mnk. I'm saddened by this D:

[Fridell]

Why would anyone need to defend MNK?

Either way, this is usually how I roll:
Lowman style event, if we need DD, I go SAM MNK or NIN (mostly the tank aspect here, though my NIN can outdamage both DRG SAM WAR DRK unless we fight higher defense mob etc, ya know the drill) BEFORE I go DRK, simply because SAM is easier to get damage from.
When one of these spots are already filled, I swap to DRK, if we already have a SAM, or MNK for example. It is a great counter weight, and DRK takes way more work and is more fun to work with then SAM also.

SAM ends up in the same category as MNK, and by that I mean that it is a job that is easy to get damage from without any exceptionally great gear pieces.
It is pretty easy to see that extremly well geared SAM vs a more normal AH SAM isnt that huge, as it is compared to a AH DRK vs endgame equipped DRK.

[FailureMidgard]

So you think SAM and WAR tank "just the same," as a DRK. That's kind of like saying that PLDs and NINs tank "just the same." Seriously. Think people. Think.

I guess if you ignore homam, b.mask, dread spikes, absorb-tp, stun, an innate bash, drains, IR gear (war can wear that at least), w.legs...Hell, if you ignore everything DRK has at it's disposal for tanking I could see your point.

My bet is, you've never seen a DRK with the proper gear and experience tank anything before. It's pretty impressive. The right DRK can solo tank pretty much anything out there np.

Admittedly I haven't seen any real tanking on anything worth noting by a SAM other than Cerb, and that didn't end too well. I believe that with the right gear and experience a SAM can tank just as well as a DRK, I just haven't seen it yet. Not on any hnms that is. One of the major draw backs I can see though is that you'd need to stay engaged to maintain hate. Something a DRK doesn't have to do as they have a wealth of hate tools at their disposal. That also defeats the whole purpose of using a SAM to begin with.

WAR, eh, well. WAR just doesn't have as much to offer as far as damage mitigation as a SAM and DRK do. And don't bring up defender. It doesn't even come close to dread spikes or third eye when shadows drop. It also shares the same problem SAM has with needing to be engaged to be truly effective with hate management.


And as far as thinking that having a DD that puts out more damage is going to increase kill speed so much that it supersedes hate/mp/tp management is ridiculous. What the fuck are you fighting? LL? And I hope you're not drawing your conclusions from 12man fafs and khims and shit and actually thinking that's low-man.

May I ask the point of having a DD tank not engaged? Is it just to cover for not having enough paladin/redmage/ninjas? I mean, the things I do tank on my sam (which is not a lot, admittedly), I tank because we -want- a tank that is engaged and doing as much damage as possible. We'd use a paladin otherwise? I really don't understand the benefit of "a tank that isn't engaged" except to cover for a job deficiency elsewhere. Which was also Therin's point early on drains + strong bio2...I'd rather switch to a useful job for a mana burn than try to play a melee in it.

As for your statement about ridiculousness, I both agree and disagree with you. You start out doing an event/fight, and play it safe. You may even have your melee go /nin. As you get more familiar, your goal becomes to kill it faster and better. That means turning your support's MP into damage. You switch your drk, drg, and war to /sam, you switch your sam to /war. Suddenly, you are killing things faster. And yet, your mages are still fine on MP. What do you do next? You switch all your sam and /sam to Hasso, full or part-time.
Yes, the most important thing is to make sure you are stable and alive. I agree with you that it is absurd to go all out damage and throw everything else to the wind. That being said, IT IS NOT RIDICULOUS AT ALL to attempt to maximize your damage while staying within a certain safety net. This is largely based on how good your support is. But it is dumb and naive to say that you should not try to push your damage as high as possible within reason.

Also, I'm not sure why people are tossing out merit parties...merit parties are the only thing that even seems worth parsing competitively...everything else has too much other shit going on, and as people have correctly pointed out, a single stun or SCs or something else random can be far more important than any amount of damage.

[FailureMidgard]

It is pretty easy to see that extremly well geared SAM vs a more normal AH SAM isnt that huge

This is 100% incorrect.

[Knyghtmayre]

It is pretty easy to see that extremly well geared SAM vs a more normal AH SAM isnt that huge, as it is compared to a AH DRK vs endgame equipped DRK.

Yeah, fuck SAM! Doesn't even need Ace's/Jturque/Rajas/Usukane/Vbelt/Brutal/Bushi/BHaidate! They don't even get any use out of any of that stuff. Haste? Fuck a haste, we TP in Wyvern helms in this bitch. Accuracy? Fuck an accuracy, can I have some of that STR please.

[Mayareira]

Awesome, goodluck buying Ace's/Jturque/Rajas/Usukane/Vbelt/Brutal/Bushi/BHaidate off the AH :D

Walmart/PCC, etc. are rather good alternatives actually. And Swift/Brutal/Rajas/Bushi aren't really the pieces I'd consider "endgame" or "exceptionally diffcult to obtain". Most of AH SAMs out there has them.

Haste? Accuracy? Fuck an accuracy, can I have some of that STR please

What are you talking about? Dusk Pieces? Swift Belt? Walmart/Askar? Barbarossa? Toreador's/Snipers/Woodsman? PCC?

[Knyghtmayre]

How dare you quote my post before I finished rewriting it. HOW DARE YOU. And how the hell are you going to get any of those pieces without being 75 or damn near it? Have you even checked the gimp thread ever? Filled with people that are 75 and still don't have this shit, so tell me, if it's not 'endgame', then what is it?

[Fridell]

Ok maybe shouldnt say "extrmely" well geared, but what SAM can get from AH VS another "well geared" SAM then.
And I dont mean FULL AH SAM obviously, more like this:

Hagun / Pole / Tiphia Sting / Turban / PCC / Merman's / Brutal /
Haub+1 / Hachiman / Rajas / Snipers / Cuch / Swift / Byakko's / Fuma sun-ate

10 slots from AH VS the:

Hagun / Pole / Tiphia Sting / Ace's / JTorque / Merman's / Brutal /
Haub+1 / Hachiman / Rajas / Snipers / Cuch / Swift / Byakko's / Usukane Sun-ate

for example...

Must be pretty stupid if ya think I discuss FULL AH geared ppl in this forum. . .

Yeah, fuck SAM! Doesn't even need Ace's/Jturque/Rajas/Usukane/Vbelt/Brutal/Bushi/BHaidate! They don't even get any use out of any of that stuff. Haste? Fuck a haste, we TP in Wyvern helms in this bitch. Accuracy? Fuck an accuracy, can I have some of that STR please.

Sarcastic I hope :D And no where did I say anything about this lol, read this post.

Rather I make my statement change abit to this:

PRETTY EASY TO GET GEAR mixed with the basic AH gear builed SAM VS a "more" endgame based equipped SAM = the difference is not extremy huge.

For fucks sake

[Knyghtmayre]

What are you talking about? Dusk Pieces? Swift Belt? Walmart/Askar? Barbarossa? Toreador's/Snipers/Woodsman? PCC?

Holy shit you're right, DRK can't wear ANY of that.

[Fridell]

Mayareira & me hit the spot here.

Dunno why anyone would think "full AH" when we count Brutals / Byakkos and what not as standard equipment.

[Mayareira]

Being "gimp" has nothing to do with accesss to certain gear pieces. RDM casting debuffs in Dalmatica(there are fuckton of them)? Gimp. A Full Morrigan BLM without any HQ Staves? Gimp. Defending Ring/Aegis PLD sporting in Durandal? Gimp.

"A more normal AH SAM" would be;

Hagun/Onimaru
Sting
Walmart Turban
PCC
Bushi
Brutal
Haub/Haub +1
Dusk
Acc Rings/Rajas
Amemet +1
Swift
Byakko
Dusk

...and proper x-hit build pieces I suppose.

[Fridell]

Mayareira understands what I meant perfectly fine :D

[Mayareira]

Hehe, that's more or less how my SAM will look like when I hit 75. And yeah, I'll classify it as an "AH SAM"(no torque, salvage, relic, yada yada).

[Knyghtmayre]

So your entire argument is that a typical Endgame DRK vs AH DRK is an entirely different animal than a typical Endgame SAM vs AH SAM, right? Yet...

Tred scythe | Pole | -- | Bomblet
Turban | PCC | Brutal | Merman's
Haub+1 | Dusk | Rajas | Toreaders
Foragers | Swift | Homam | Dusk
VS
Perdu | Pole | -- | Bomblet
Aces | Jtorque | Brutal | Abyssal
Haub+1 | Homam | Rajas | Toreaders
Foragers | Swift | Homam | Aurum

seems EERILY CLOSE TO

Hagun | Pole | -- | Tiphia
Turban | PCC | Brutal | Merman's
Haub+1 | Hachiman | Rajas | Toreaders
Foragers | Swift | Byakkos | Dusk
VS
Hagun | Pole | -- | Tiphia
Aces | Jtorque | Brutal | Bushi
Haub+1 | Dusk | Rajas | Toreaders
Foragers | Swift | Byakkos | Usukane

So, seriously, what?

[Fridell]

No argument, just saying it is easier to build a working SAM for DMG.