DD Potential Discussion from Media

[Chantal]

Granted, Byakko's Haidate are pretty hard to get. It took me a long time to get them for my NIN. But I'll be honest, I was in an HNM shell that ran sky maybe once a month? If that. Then when I moved to Lakshmi... I decided to care, got my RDM to 75, solo'd/duo'd my pops and got my social LS to kill him. It's not as hard as it seems, especially if you have RDM/BLM/SCH/friends with said jobs does take a lot of time though.

I would argue that BH are much easier to get than Homam, Adaberk, K.club, stuff like that though. And sure, a DRK doesn't need them to do good damage, but the difference that that gear makes for a DRK is pretty huge.

Also, hi Marcicus and you know I'm right. FYI I didn't say Ace's was useless, but highly overrated (and overpriced). I swear, some SAMs/DRKs/DRGs see Ace's and assume its owner is omgwtfpimpedout even though they dont do much more than walmart turban . Also a lot of the people who have an Ace's ARE pretty pimped otherwise, which would explain why they lead your typical AH/walmart DDs by a lot.

I will admit though, Ace's is pretty sexy looking, and I'd use it if only for that <.<

[Gadritan]

May I ask the point of having a DD tank not engaged? Is it just to cover for not having enough paladin/redmage/ninjas? I mean, the things I do tank on my sam (which is not a lot, admittedly), I tank because we -want- a tank that is engaged and doing as much damage as possible. We'd use a paladin otherwise? I really don't understand the benefit of "a tank that isn't engaged" except to cover for a job deficiency elsewhere. Which was also Therin's point early on drains + strong bio2...I'd rather switch to a useful job for a mana burn than try to play a melee in it.

Ok. There are distinct advantages to a tank that's not engaged for certain mobs depending on your set up. A good example of course is Khim. In a less than perfect set up, the last thing you want to do is feed him TP. i.e. DRK/BRD/RDM/SMN/SAM. I've killed with this set up. The reason I ended up there as DRK was simply a matter of needing to claim. I could get there about 10-20seconds faster as DRK than I could PLD, and that was the difference. We had no better options with the jobs available by those that were online. The SAM and BRD were even boxed, lol. Now without stona and only 1 reliable stun, you really don't want to see a lot of TP moves popped off.

I'm talking about the less than perfect set ups and scenarios that would actually dictate having DRK main tank. Of course I'd rather be on PLD or NIN, but sometimes you don't have the luxury of time. I've lost and won claims by literally a step or two. I think anyone who's spent much time in a HNMLS knows how valuable even 1 second is when rushing to claim.

Kiting mobs I would think go without saying too. SAM and WAR could never hold the hate a DRK can kiting.

As for your statement about ridiculousness, I both agree and disagree with you. You start out doing an event/fight, and play it safe. You may even have your melee go /nin. As you get more familiar, your goal becomes to kill it faster and better. That means turning your support's MP into damage. You switch your drk, drg, and war to /sam, you switch your sam to /war. Suddenly, you are killing things faster. And yet, your mages are still fine on MP. What do you do next? You switch all your sam and /sam to Hasso, full or part-time.
Yes, the most important thing is to make sure you are stable and alive. I agree with you that it is absurd to go all out damage and throw everything else to the wind. That being said, IT IS NOT RIDICULOUS AT ALL to attempt to maximize your damage while staying within a certain safety net. This is largely based on how good your support is. But it is dumb and naive to say that you should not try to push your damage as high as possible within reason.

I think you grossly misunderstood me as well about increasing damage. "And as far as thinking that having a DD that puts out more damage is going to increase kill speed so much that it supersedes hate/mp/tp management is ridiculous," is what I said. See that part where I say "supersedes hate/mp/tp management." That's important in comprehending the sentence. Saying "you should not try to push your damage as high as possible within reason," is definitely dumb and naive. To interpret what I said as meaning that is extremely dumb as well. Learn to read before you call someone else dumb.

We always maximized our damage and had incredibly skilled support. A perfect example is the SS I posted a few pages back of when I was DRK/SAM at Khim, yet I just talked about tanking Khim DRK/NIN. If I wasn't looking to maximize damage and only wanted to play it safe, I'd always be DRK/NIN "just in case." That's a part of having years of experience killing these things. You know what job and what SJ to bring based on the circumstances. You don't need to go over HNM 101 with me, I assure you.

A part of maximizing your damage is hate/mp/tp management. Maximizing your own personal damage can hinder the overall damage of the fight if it's done at the expense of hate/mp/tp management. I'm talking about maximizing your overall damage output for the fight (not one person) while staying within the "safe" zone. Not throwing caution to the wind and stroking your epeen possibly at the expense of a wipe. He had made it sound like versatility was completely irrelevant and that high numbers were all that mattered.

as people have correctly pointed out, a single stun or SCs or something else random can be far more important than any amount of damage.

That's my point. Yours is?

[FailureMidgard]

Ok. There are distinct advantages to a tank that's not engaged for certain mobs depending on your set up. A good example of course is Khim. In a less than perfect set up, the last thing you want to do is feed him TP. i.e. DRK/BRD/RDM/SMN/SAM. I've killed with this set up. The reason I ended up there as DRK was simply a matter of needing to claim. I could get there about 10-20seconds faster as DRK than I could PLD, and that was the difference. We had no better options with the jobs available by those that were online. The SAM and BRD were even boxed, lol. Now without stona and only 1 reliable stun, you really don't want to see a lot of TP moves popped off.

I'm talking about the less than perfect set ups and scenarios that would actually dictate having DRK main tank. Of course I'd rather be on PLD or NIN, but sometimes you don't have the luxury of time. I've lost and won claims by literally a step or two. I think anyone who's spent much time in a HNMLS knows how valuable even 1 second is when rushing to claim.

Kiting mobs I would think go without saying too. SAM and WAR could never hold the hate a DRK can kiting.

I said the point of having a -DD- tank not engaged. I fully understand the point of having a tank not engaged, thanks. But it's nice to know your only reason apparently is that you were on DRK once upon a time when Khim popped, and didn't want to waist 10 seconds switching jobs. But truthfully, in any -normal- situation, on any fight you want a tank to not be engaged, you will not use a DRK. If you want a DD tank that is engaged, DRK has nothing over sam.

As for kiting, pld+blm+rdm please? Again, why would you bring a drk to something you are kiting? It's just covering for a lack of jobs. Anyone who cares about this game at all should really have more than 1 75 at this point.

I think you grossly misunderstood me as well about increasing damage. "And as far as thinking that having a DD that puts out more damage is going to increase kill speed so much that it supersedes hate/mp/tp management is ridiculous," is what I said. See that part where I say "supersedes hate/mp/tp management." That's important in comprehending the sentence. Saying "you should not try to push your damage as high as possible within reason," is definitely dumb and naive. To interpret what I said as meaning that is extremely dumb as well. Learn to read before you call someone else dumb.

We always maximized our damage and had incredibly skilled support. A perfect example is the SS I posted a few pages back of when I was DRK/SAM at Khim, yet I just talked about tanking Khim DRK/NIN. If I wasn't looking to maximize damage and only wanted to play it safe, I'd always be DRK/NIN "just in case." That's a part of having years of experience killing these things. You know what job and what SJ to bring based on the circumstances. You don't need to go over HNM 101 with me, I assure you.

A part of maximizing your damage is hate/mp/tp management. Maximizing your own personal damage can hinder the overall damage of the fight if it's done at the expense of hate/mp/tp management. I'm talking about maximizing your overall damage output for the fight (not one person) while staying within the "safe" zone. Not throwing caution to the wind and stroking your epeen possibly at the expense of a wipe. He had made it sound like versatility was completely irrelevant and that high numbers were all that mattered

I'm not sure what you define as supersedes mp/tp management, my bad I guess? There are many points of balance in mp management for sure. In any case, telling me to learn to read is fucking stupid and petty. If you want to be specific, then be specific. But tell me, what do you consider managing TP moves? I know Kaeko once argued you could kill Tiamat without him getting a single TP move off. Is that "managing TP moves"? Or do you just want to limit it to 1 per minute? Or just let him go as often as he can with only 1 DD engaged? There are a near infinite amount of ways you can manage TP moves. The exact same goes for managing MP. When you made your statement, I assumed you were taking a more conservative approach, forgive me for assuming that, but I know how to read, and am responding to your incredibly general statement of "managing tp/mp/hate".

Also, I'm not here just talking about Khim. Let's talk about doing Einherjar "lowman" though (I honestly don't know what # that would be even, I'm not in a great Einherjar shell or anything). First off, to be clear, I'd still take DRKs. Extra stuns, extra sleeps, and their ability to zerg at the end all make them a great choice for Einherjar. That being said, you are still dealing with a 30minute timer, and regardless of the fact a well geared DRK will outdamage the sam on the boss, with 2 "equal" players, the sam will probably win on overall damage (which does not mean a sam is better, it is merely a standalone statement). You need a combination of things to be the most successful, but damage IS one of the things.

I think the main thing you missed from my post, which may not even contradict anything you said, is that there are multiple points of "mp management". Each point (/nin, /sam seigan fulltime, /sam hasso) is managing mp, in a different way. Some groups out there have mages that can't handle the /sam seigan even. Some can handle that but not the /sam hasso. Everyone has a different idea of "managing mp". I agree that managing mp is important, but with your vagueness, I was elaborating and pointing out that you still want to turn mage mp into damage.

And my last statement about a stun, was just me acknowledging that damage isn't always the #1 key or anything. I dunno why you assume everything has to be in argument with you. Damage is very important, perhaps not so much on Khim. It's hard to argue for damage on something you can hold for 3 hrs with very little trouble as you whittle it down. On other things, like Einherjar/Salvage, if you don't overwhelm the place with twice the needed people, you -need- to optimize your damage as much as possible.

[Kellanved]

i think if a mnk could sub war and wear full usu like i did, they would bring out the fear on the table. i would voke on purpose for counter dmg and cheat the hell out of it lol. i think the last serious pty i had, i was in a pty with a samurai and a war/sam at jade with me eating a pizza+1. all 3 were very VERY well geared and WS'd the second we all had TP. and i came in 2nd, but i also HP'd like 2x lol. i set my HP right in WG so i can come back asap. i always had capped buffer so i rather not wait for weakness to wear and make them lose a chain on a rdm raising lol. mnk/war is ridiculous, but only with full usu i think. near cap haste (1% off) with all that acc and the crits from destroyers will put your DoT up there with one of the best.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...-RANA-test.jpg
This is the parse you’re referring to. You weren’t second. For technical purposes, your MNK/WAR parsed last, but the difference between that output and the second highest is minimal, thus I ranked them about the same in that parse.

•Facts about the circumstances of the parse: Jade sepulcher – camp, BRDX2, minX2/marchX2, min/march-lurkers

•The SAM,-second highest output was an experimental build involving Pizza and Askar Korazin. A much better output can easily be obtained with closer to optimal build.

•Parse was paused for all interruptions, including the single death of the MNK/WAR (Fang Rush hurts) towards the end of the party, so that was irrelevant for all intent and purposes. And, using provoke so you can get counters is not “cheating,” just using your tools properly.

•The highest output is WAR/SAM. That output is generally consistent with his typical performance, though the acc can and was improved upon. Discounting parse skewing factors, like the haste/cure bot that accompanies the WAR (the name at the very bottom of the parse)

•This is from DirectParse, and I’m reasonably sure counter damage is factored in there somehow.

In general, while MNK/WAR may relatively keep up, it does not surpass.

[Redshift]

Also, retaliation is better than MNK counter for damage purposes. You deal damage and get TP for it; lowering hits needed to WS with a 6 hit is sexy. Not to mention most WARs probably have DA merits, so with DA 22% and Retaliation it shoots WS frequency even higher.

[FailureMidgard]

So, about this DRK vs SAM gear thing...

What are you guys defining as "an AH drk"? Apparently an "AH sam" includes a Byakko's

Hagun is far more expensive than anything a DRK needs to get (assuming non relic).
Ebody is 4str, 4dex, 3acc, 3attk over Haub+1.
Bomblet is more expensive than the NQ alternative for a sam. Black Tathlum is more expensive than this.
Both classes want a DM earring + Brutal.
Both classes want an Ace's helm (and use Turban until then).
Both classes want the same neck.
Both classes want the same rings.
Both classes want the same back/waist.
Both classes use dusk gloves (ok, drk can use Homam which is barely better? but dusk works fine).
Sam needs Byakkos, Drk needs Homam legs. Neither of these is really harder than the other to obtain.
Usukane Sune-ate is 7acc, 7attk, and 2 haste over the alternative. Drk needs homam.

So, looking at TP gear for now:
1. DRK spends less money than sam (Hagun vs Bomblet is really what it comes down to). DRK is 2mil cheaper than sam to gear.
2. DRK needs 2 pieces of homam, SAM needs 1 piece of sky gear. Neither of these is hard to obtain at all. I have homam legs/feet/hands, and don't even have a job past 41 yet that can equip them.
3. DRK gains 4str, 4dex, 3acc, 3attk from their ONE piece of perhaps harder to obtain endgame gear. SAM gains 7acc, 7attk, 2 haste from their ONE piece of perhaps harder to obtain endgame gear. I'm pretty sure if you take those 2 characters, the sam actually has a larger upgrade from that one piece of gear than the DRK does.

I would say that as far as TP gear goes, DRK has it easier than SAM, due to the fact sam is spending 2mil gil more for Hagun, and the fact that Usu feet are so much more important to a sam than Ebody is to a drk.


Want to move onto WS gear? Fine. I'll be honest, I'm not sure what DRKs want to use exactly here, haven't really done all the comparisons.

Head - Similar NQ options for both classes. Ohat(drk) Wyvern(sam). For HQ - Sam wants Maat's Cap, or Orc Helm. DRK wants heca.
Body - DRK is set (Haub or Ebody), Sam needs Kirins.
Legs - Sam wants Hachiryu (Usu/Shura/AF+1 trailing). DRK wants (ares>black?), AH DRK uses black (4str 14attk) vs NQ sam in AF+1 (5str)
Hands - Alky for sam, af+1 for DRK?
Feet - Sam just needs rutters. NQ drk just needs amir. Heca/ares for HQ gear perhaps?
Neck - both want gorget.
Rings - DRK needs no extra rings, sam needs a str ring (can call it even anyway, some drks may want to pick up str here? not sure really).
Earrings - both want same.
Waist - DRK wants potent perhaps, SAM warwolf...close to same, potent costs 100k or something.
Back - same pretty much.

So let's see, where are the big differences here:
Sam has it way way worse on legs. Black legs aren't that expensive and aren't even that far behind ares.
Sam has it slightly worse on body, DRK doesn't even need a 2nd piece (at least Osode isn't too hard to get).
For head, it's a funny topic...yea, Wyvern Helm isn't really that far behind the HQ options Sam has, that only give 1-2 str more, but it's also not a very good piece. Sam's biggest problem here is that we have no other options. Ohat really is going to be comparable for your NQ drks. In any case, I think a Maat's cap is harder to obtain than a Heca head, but it's also a much smaller upgrade for the time spent, so /shrug.
I'd call it about even on gloves...600k gloves vs AF+1 which is generally just rotting while you're on your way to homam.
Feet I'd call about even at an NQ level, DRK has some better options out there in ares/heca, so we'll say DRK has it worse.

I'm still utterly confused as to where people get this idea that DRK is harder to gear, or that a full NQ sam is perfectly fine.
Neither job is "easier" or "harder" to gear in the long run, IMO. They both have similar NQ options really, and both have similar more endgame upgrades they need. Feel free to point out where I am wrong in this, but yea, like I said, I feel Usu feet is a bigger upgrade to sam than Ebody is to drk, and yet everyone sits here and orgasms over ebody, and then says "well, excluding salvage".

[richardd]

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...-RANA-test.jpg
This is the parse you’re referring to. You weren’t second. For technical purposes, your MNK/WAR parsed last, but the difference between that output and the second highest is minimal, thus I ranked them about the same in that parse.

•Facts about the circumstances of the parse: Jade sepulcher – camp, BRDX2, minX2/marchX2, min/march-lurkers

•The SAM,-second highest output was an experimental build involving Pizza and Askar Korazin. A much better output can easily be obtained with closer to optimal build.

•Parse was paused for all interruptions, including the single death of the MNK/WAR (Fang Rush hurts) towards the end of the party, so that was irrelevant for all intent and purposes. And, using provoke so you can get counters is not “cheating,” just using your tools properly.

•The highest output is WAR/SAM. That output is generally consistent with his typical performance, though the acc can and was improved upon. Discounting parse skewing factors, like the haste/cure bot that accompanies the WAR (the name at the very bottom of the parse)

•This is from DirectParse, and I’m reasonably sure counter damage is factored in there somehow.

In general, while MNK/WAR may relatively keep up, it does not surpass.

oh ok lol. it was such a long time ago i forgot lol. we had fun though that pty huh? tell artemas i said hi

[Zilong]

This is the parse you’re referring to. You weren’t second. For technical purposes, your MNK/WAR parsed last, but the difference between that output and the second highest is minimal, thus I ranked them about the same in that parse.

•Facts about the circumstances of the parse: Jade sepulcher – camp, BRDX2, minX2/marchX2, min/march-lurkers

•The SAM,-second highest output was an experimental build involving Pizza and Askar Korazin. A much better output can easily be obtained with closer to optimal build.

•Parse was paused for all interruptions, including the single death of the MNK/WAR (Fang Rush hurts) towards the end of the party, so that was irrelevant for all intent and purposes. And, using provoke so you can get counters is not “cheating,” just using your tools properly.

•The highest output is WAR/SAM. That output is generally consistent with his typical performance, though the acc can and was improved upon. Discounting parse skewing factors, like the haste/cure bot that accompanies the WAR (the name at the very bottom of the parse)

•This is from DirectParse, and I’m reasonably sure counter damage is factored in there somehow.

In general, while MNK/WAR may relatively keep up, it does not surpass.

All this merit pissing contest is fucking hilarious once you realize that a group of naked SMN can probably make at least twice the amount of your exp/hour.

[Gadritan]

I said the point of having a -DD- tank not engaged. I fully understand the point of having a tank not engaged, thanks. But it's nice to know your only reason apparently is that you were on DRK once upon a time when Khim popped, and didn't want to waist 10 seconds switching jobs. But truthfully, in any -normal- situation, on any fight you want a tank to not be engaged, you will not use a DRK. If you want a DD tank that is engaged, DRK has nothing over sam.

As for kiting, pld+blm+rdm please? Again, why would you bring a drk to something you are kiting? It's just covering for a lack of jobs. Anyone who cares about this game at all should really have more than 1 75 at this point.

I'm talking about the less than perfect set ups and scenarios that would actually dictate having DRK main tank. Of course I'd rather be on PLD or NIN, but sometimes you don't have the luxury of time. I've lost and won claims by literally a step or two. I think anyone who's spent much time in a HNMLS knows how valuable even 1 second is when rushing to claim.

If you want a DD tank that is engaged, DRK has nothing over sam.

I guess if you ignore homam, b.mask, dread spikes, absorb-tp, stun, an innate bash, drains, IR gear (war can wear that at least), w.legs...Hell, if you ignore everything DRK has at it's disposal for tanking I could see your point.

why would you bring a drk to something you are kiting?

I'm talking about the less than perfect set ups and scenarios

And no. It's not covering for lack of jobs. I have PLD and NIN for my tank jobs. There's been plenty of times where I simply had to get there to claim before another LS did. If I had taken the time to change, we wouldn't have claimed and being PLD or NIN would be completely fucking pointless. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

I'm not sure what you define as supersedes mp/tp management

Supersede –verb (used with object), -sed⋅ed, -sed⋅ing.
1. to replace in power, authority, effectiveness, acceptance, use, etc., as by another person or thing.
2. to set aside or cause to be set aside as void, useless, or obsolete, usually in favor of something mentioned; make obsolete: They superseded the old statute with a new one.
3. to succeed to the position, function, office, etc., of; supplant.

So. I would probably mean that damage would take precedence over hate/mp/tp management. Meaning, management of such things would no longer be the priority. I really don't need to explain it any further than that.

But it's nice to know your only reason apparently is that you were on DRK once upon a time when Khim popped, and didn't want to waist 10 seconds switching jobs.

A good example of course is Khim. In a less than perfect set up, the last thing you want to do is feed him TP. i.e. DRK/BRD/RDM/SMN/SAM. I've killed with this set up. The reason I ended up there as DRK was simply a matter of needing to claim. I could get there about 10-20seconds faster as DRK than I could PLD, and that was the difference.

That was just an example. I'm not going to spend a few days writing about every time I've ended up tanking on DRK. Again, if I had -wasted- (note: not waist) 10 seconds to change, we wouldn't have claimed. My PLD would have been useless.

On other things, like Einherjar/Salvage, if you don't overwhelm the place with twice the needed people, you -need- to optimize your damage as much as possible.

I'm talking about maximizing your overall damage output for the fight (not one person) while staying within the "safe" zone.

This means maximizing all of the damage as a whole. It has nothing to do with when or where. It's -always- about maximizing OVERALL damage. This means for everyone. You have to stay within the "safe" zone to do so. Dead DDs do 0 damage. That's a fact. We were winning einherjar tier 1s and 2s with 12ppl before any of the adjustments, so don't bother explaining something to me that I already know again.

It's easy enough to see that we come from very different backgrounds as far as experience with endgame, so I'm going to let this conversation die after this post.

[pchan]

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...-RANA-test.jpg
This is the parse you’re referring to. You weren’t second. For technical purposes, your MNK/WAR parsed last, but the difference between that output and the second highest is minimal, thus I ranked them about the same in that parse.

•Facts about the circumstances of the parse: Jade sepulcher – camp, BRDX2, minX2/marchX2, min/march-lurkers

•The SAM,-second highest output was an experimental build involving Pizza and Askar Korazin. A much better output can easily be obtained with closer to optimal build.

•Parse was paused for all interruptions, including the single death of the MNK/WAR (Fang Rush hurts) towards the end of the party, so that was irrelevant for all intent and purposes. And, using provoke so you can get counters is not “cheating,” just using your tools properly.

•The highest output is WAR/SAM. That output is generally consistent with his typical performance, though the acc can and was improved upon. Discounting parse skewing factors, like the haste/cure bot that accompanies the WAR (the name at the very bottom of the parse)

•This is from DirectParse, and I’m reasonably sure counter damage is factored in there somehow.

In general, while MNK/WAR may relatively keep up, it does not surpass.

88% accuracy on monk, Hades sainti(+1) + meat, give the same accuracy, something is wrong. And the ratio ws/melee seems low (68%/33%).

[Chantal]

The thing is Failure, as you admitted, SAM is a better DD naturally than DRK is. So having the same calibur gear will take you a lot further with SAM than it will with DRK. Now though, you have to ask yourself, is someone brand new to the game took DRK to 75 and someone else brand new took SAM to 75, which do you think would do more damage overall? I'd have to say the SAM, even without Hagun/BH/etc, SAM's just naturally a very good job for DDing. Not to mention you don't need Sea/Limbus for TP gear like DRK does, or all that hecatomb gear or whatnot. You can do pretty well on SAM if you were just in a Sky shell and ran the Hagun ENM weekly (I duo it with my SAM friend every 5 days). Also, Gekko's just such a good WS, you don't need any accuracy/attack for it pretty much and a lot of stuff (hachiman, pallas bracelets, AF+1 if you have sea, STR+4 rings, etc) is really cheap and will raise your damage much faster than equivalent gear will for a DRKs Guillotine. If AH SAM = not usukane SAM and AH DRK = not ares/adaberk DRK, then I'd say the difference between endgame SAM/AH SAM and endgame DRK/AH DRK are about the same.

Also I don't mean to sound like "zomg DRKs suck" or something, I love DRKs and was/am debating between leveling it or SAM. Its looking like SAM now because of its versatility as a tank/DD and easiness to gear (I already have BH/haub/lots of other stuff from NIN and can get Hagun from the ENM).

[richardd]

88% accuracy on monk, Hades sainti(+1) + meat, give the same accuracy, something is wrong. And the ratio ws/melee seems low (68%/33%).

this is jade camp. lurkers, and infiltrators and flashes- oh my~

usually you want to add + ~5% acc there if the person parsing didnt filter that out. i think i did good for a 1h lol. i was relaxing and having fun with these guys. kell's pty's are usually pretty good anyways so the its not like i was spamming focus every chance i got. i only used it on lurkers, although toward the end i got lazy and just used it whenever. and when you're so used to subbing nin 90% of the time, you forget you have berserk on that job as well, id have it up for 1 min sometimes before using it again lol. even if i did use all those things like i was anal about it, i dont think it couldve surpassed them. besides i was dropping my h2h merits at the time for gaxe. sam and war wouldve still beat me, methinks.

im impressed by the rana average. for a multi hit, it kept up with asuran fist like nothing lol.

edit: hades+1 and another meat will give you same percentage as a pizza? im curious what meat gives you that much of a boost in acc? i know its been a while. <_>;

[Rikura]

All this merit pissing contest is fucking hilarious once you realize that a group of naked SMN can probably make at least twice the amount of your exp/hour.

The sad yet hilarious truth. Personal record of 33K exp in one flow session that took 30ish minutes to gather, train, etc. It can vary a lot but for the minimal effort, naked SMNs own.

[FailureMidgard]

I guess if you ignore homam, b.mask, dread spikes, absorb-tp, stun, an innate bash, drains, IR gear (war can wear that at least), w.legs...Hell, if you ignore everything DRK has at it's disposal for tanking I could see your point.

bmask sam can wear, let's drop that one. Innate bash...matters why? Same cooldown as a full merited blade bash. Oh blade bash has a TP drain on it also. And Homam? HUH? Really? What the fuck does homam have to do with anything? It has less haste than the SAM option if you're talking /nin for shadow recast. It has less enmity than the sam options. I guess fast cast legs?
What are you ignoring on the sam side? Better -PDT, Seigan/3rd eye, better evasion/parrying (ok, evasion may not matter since anything worthwhile will be accuracy capped - parry however does matter).

As for the kiting thing, what if the sam is feeding TP to a blm to use the Nyzul WS on the kited mob for -mdb, then solos a lvl 3 SC right as the mob you were kiting stops to cast so every BLM can MC? See, I can pull stupid random "less than perfect" scenarios out of my ass also.

And no. It's not covering for lack of jobs. I have PLD and NIN for my tank jobs. There's been plenty of times where I simply had to get there to claim before another LS did. If I had taken the time to change, we wouldn't have claimed and being PLD or NIN would be completely fucking pointless. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

It isn't the least bit hard to comprehend. Until you try to argue which class is better at something based on it.

What if you were DRK/THF solo farming something? Who's gonna tank better, you or the SAM/THF that was solo farming? And please remember you have 0 time to switch jobs.

Supersede –verb (used with object), -sed⋅ed, -sed⋅ing.
1. to replace in power, authority, effectiveness, acceptance, use, etc., as by another person or thing.
2. to set aside or cause to be set aside as void, useless, or obsolete, usually in favor of something mentioned; make obsolete: They superseded the old statute with a new one.
3. to succeed to the position, function, office, etc., of; supplant.

So. I would probably mean that damage would take precedence over hate/mp/tp management. Meaning, management of such things would no longer be the priority. I really don't need to explain it any further than that.

Good job ignoring what I said. I understand what supersede means. I don't know where your balance of managing is.

Superseding MP management could mean letting your mages ever fall under 75% MP. It could also mean just making sure you don't die. There are a million different threshold, AS I SAID as to where MP management is. You can supersede each level of mp management separately. Please, don't make me type the same argument a second time.

That was just an example. I'm not going to spend a few days writing about every time I've ended up tanking on DRK. Again, if I had -wasted- (note: not waist) 10 seconds to change, we wouldn't have claimed. My PLD would have been useless.

My bad on not proofreading, I'm aware of the difference, just slipping because I'm doing other things as I type this.

This means maximizing all of the damage as a whole. It has nothing to do with when or where. It's -always- about maximizing OVERALL damage. This means for everyone. You have to stay within the "safe" zone to do so. Dead DDs do 0 damage. That's a fact. We were winning einherjar tier 1s and 2s with 12ppl before any of the adjustments, so don't bother explaining something to me that I already know again.

Are you always this grouchy? And yes, it is about maximizing overall damage? What the fuck is your point? If I have an option to do 2 damage, or 1 damage and neither one hurts anyone else's damage, 2 damage will do more OVERALL damage than 1.

It's easy enough to see that we come from very different backgrounds as far as experience with endgame, so I'm going to let this conversation die after this post.

I'm talking about the less than perfect set ups and scenarios

Yea, my bad, when I talk about theoretical shit on forums, I'm not talking about the 1 time I was farming /thf and Khim popped and I had 0 seconds to spare as I ran there, and good thing I was on Sam instead of Drk, 'cause drk/thf can't tank worth a shit, at least I had a chance on sam.
Fine, that never really happened, but please inform me which class tanks better as /thf. I'm sure you'll have a great reason why this situation is irrelevant but your inferior situation is spot on.

Actually, I figured it out. DRK is way better than sam, mainly because when you want to do the Liberator fight, sam doesn't have a chance.

[Kellanved]

Zilong, you're missing the point. Though I can see how your comment might be apt, given the tendency of the majority of posts in these type of threads to lean far more towards subjective comparisons likely compensating for some self esteem deficiency.

Anyway, the main interest is the objective comparison (or at least as objective as possible) of the damage output of the jobs. Whatever value such information might have.

Pchan, you also have your ratios mixed up. 67% is the melee, 33% is the WS.

[FailureMidgard]

The thing is Failure, as you admitted, SAM is a better DD naturally than DRK is. So having the same calibur gear will take you a lot further with SAM than it will with DRK. Now though, you have to ask yourself, is someone brand new to the game took DRK to 75 and someone else brand new took SAM to 75, which do you think would do more damage overall? I'd have to say the SAM, even without Hagun/BH/etc, SAM's just naturally a very good job for DDing. Not to mention you don't need Sea/Limbus for TP gear like DRK does, or all that hecatomb gear or whatnot. You can do pretty well on SAM if you were just in a Sky shell and ran the Hagun ENM weekly (I duo it with my SAM friend every 5 days). Also, Gekko's just such a good WS, you don't need any accuracy/attack for it pretty much and a lot of stuff (hachiman, pallas bracelets, AF+1 if you have sea, STR+4 rings, etc) is really cheap and will raise your damage much faster than equivalent gear will for a DRKs Guillotine. If AH SAM = not usukane SAM and AH DRK = not ares/adaberk DRK, then I'd say the difference between endgame SAM/AH SAM and endgame DRK/AH DRK are about the same.

Also I don't mean to sound like "zomg DRKs suck" or something, I love DRKs and was/am debating between leveling it or SAM. Its looking like SAM now because of its versatility as a tank/DD and easiness to gear (I already have BH/haub/lots of other stuff from NIN and can get Hagun from the ENM).

Yes, I agree SAM is naturally a slightly higher damage dealing job than DRK (note, I'm not saying all around better). That is the only reason a fresh 75 sam will beat a fresh 75 drk. It's also the reason a pimped out sam will beat a pimped out drk.

Your assessment of Gekko and WS gear is wrong though. A sam with no sky/sea gets 3str legs for their WS. Yea, we don't need attack, but a drk can AH legs with 4str and 14 attack. The dmg increase from those AH legs is insane compared.
And you are wrong on the drks AH gear. Sam has to get the str ring, drk is fine sticking with rajas/snipers. AF+1 gloves for drk are best in slot really. Drk can use their TP necklace if they don't have a sea gorget, sam has no good options for a WS neck short of a sea gorget. Hachiman is awful. It's a necessary evil short of Usukane feet to make your build, but it's awful. Drk can just use 2x dusk. Drk gets their better weapon without dropping 3mil gil.

My entire point is a drk can do exceptionally well with very easy to get/ahed items. I'm not saying a sam can't - they can too. I'm saying I don't think you can actually make an accurate argument for which 1 is easier to gear there, I think they are insanely close. I do think that sam are much more reliant on merits though (Store TP and Overwhelm are almost required for a sam to be able to compete...).

{edit: Sam NEEDS sea/limnus. Perhaps drk needs it a bit more so they can grab homam legs. But no Rajas ring really really hinders most all 2h DD}

[pchan]

t. besides i was dropping my h2h merits at the time for gaxe. sam and war wouldve still beat me, methinks.

This explains the low ws% and acc% for full usu monk

[richardd]

really think it wouldve made that much of a difference? ;; i still had like 4 into it! and pfft! i dont WS in full usu asuran fist is 50% acc and 50% brd !

[pchan]

really think it wouldve made that much of a difference? ;; i still had like 4 into it! and pfft! i dont WS in full usu asuran fist is 50% acc and 50% brd !

I meant more accuracy from merit should decrease the balance melee/ws.

[Jakson]

So, about this DRK vs SAM gear thing...

Both classes use dusk gloves (ok, drk can use Homam which is barely better? but dusk works fine).
Sam needs Byakkos, Drk needs Homam legs. Neither of these is really harder than the other to obtain.

2. DRK needs 2 pieces of homam, SAM needs 1 piece of sky gear. Neither of these is hard to obtain at all. I have homam legs/feet/hands, and don't even have a job past 41 yet that can equip them.

These two thing are kind of subjective. I got Haidate when my RNG was the only one that could wear it (NIN was 70 at the time), but after 6ish months in a Limbus shell, I saw like 3 Homam legs drop, and it still left another guy who joined at approx. the same time as me #12 on the list for legs. Zilart can be done in one day with a few gimps, CoP (well, when I did it) is significantly harder to pass. Byakko needs two triggers (that can be obtained in one day if you're lucky, two if you're not) and can be killed with fewer people than Omega, who takes 4 chips (which most take a soap and means you won't usually see an omega more than once every 2 weeks) and soap for everybody. Not trying to start some argument, but just because you got something easier than the other doesn't mean everyone has the same opportunities.