DD Potential Discussion from Media

[FailureMidgard]

These two thing are kind of subjective. I got Haidate when my RNG was the only one that could wear it (NIN was 70 at the time), but after 6ish months in a Limbus shell, I saw like 3 Homam legs drop, and it still left another guy who joined at approx. the same time as me #12 on the list for legs. Zilart can be done in one day with a few gimps, CoP (well, when I did it) is significantly harder to pass. Byakko needs two triggers (that can be obtained in one day if you're lucky, two if you're not) and can be killed with fewer people than Omega, who takes 4 chips (which most take a soap and means you won't usually see an omega more than once every 2 weeks) and soap for everybody. Not trying to start some argument, but just because you got something easier than the other doesn't mean everyone has the same opportunities.

And I'm saying they are roughly equivalent. I never said 1 was easier because I got 1 easier. And BTW, both Omega and Byakko can be killed with 6 with very little difficulty. Pops for both are relatively easy to obtain (Yea, Omega is once every 2nd week on average...it also only takes 30-40minutes per soap, whereas Despot you have to compete for, and you can easily end up spending ~6 hrs to obtain a popset). Really, I'm not trying to argue Homam is easier to get than Byakkos, or vice versa. They are both insanely easy to get, and in both cases you can get unlucky like your quote of a friend. Anyone who says either is hard to get is doing it wrong, and doing said events in a shell of 15-20+ people, instead of with a small group of friends.
You can also probably buy Omega popsets for cheaper than a Byakko popset, if you find someone willing to sell. My group would definitely sell Omega chips if we knew someone wanting to buy em.

Zilart missions are still less time consuming than CoP missions, but if you rely on pugs, they are also harder to find people for (if you have friends/a shell helping, Zilart is easier by far). When I started this character, it was after CoP was released and done...I tried shouting for groups and doing shout groups for both CoP and Zilart. I was utterly unable to get Zilart done until I got friends to help with it later. CoP I managed to fully complete in shout groups (before I had sky access, I may add). Not because Zilart is harder, but because so much fewer people need it nowadays (and when they do, they do it with a group of 3 friends).

Again, I'm not saying either is easier really. It's very subjective which is easier. What's true for one person won't be true for another. I'm saying they are both very easy to obtain, as opposed to something like an Ebody or Usu feet. However, Byakko's is a larger gain than Homam. My main point is both jobs are roughly the same difficulty to NQ/AH gear, and roughly the same difficulty to well gear (Ok, DRK has an extra tier of HQ gear because they use so much abjuration gear, so they could literally HQ every abjuration if they wanted, but that's different).

[Mayareira]

You are overestimating Despot. Back then when I actually cared about sky I could pop Despot solo without any competition at offpeak hours, heck sometimes I was all alone at Ru'aun Gardens. A decent sky linkshell can farm up to minimum of 3-4 byakko popsets in a week and Haidate bunch of members up on their sky pop day.

In most sky linkshells, Haidate becomes a "bard/ranger piece" in a month maximum(assuming they start off with bunch of people needing them, post Ullikummi/Diorite update).

Even if your linkshell doesn't do sky, it is also entirely possible to farm its popset in a day with a small group and get a Haidate on the same day.

Getting Homam Cosciales isn't "insanely easy", if you are farming popsets in a small group and if it doesn't drop, you are basically cockblocked for a week or two...unlike Byakko, where you can simply say "fuck you, I'll go farm another set!".

[Gadritan]

I lied. This is just too good to pass up.

Innate bash...matters why? Same cooldown as a full merited blade bash.

It matters because every single DRK has it. How many sams are going to have blade bash merited? Much less capped. Unless they sacrifice merits that could be used for overwhelm or shiki, which would reduce their ability to add to the overall damage of a fight. And that was your argument for a SAM being better to begin with.

And Homam? HUH? Really? What the fuck does homam have to do with anything? It has less haste than the SAM option if you're talking /nin for shadow recast. It has less enmity than the sam options.

You really don't think before you post do you?

DRK will have that enmity equipped nearly full time. SAM has the option of sacrificing haste/dd gear for enmity, or only swapping in enmity for /ja. Homam is a haste/DD/enmity set all in one.

SAM has a 2% advantage in the haste department for uts recast. Aside from the fact that it's an extremely small advantage in terms of recast, a DRK can stun if he needs a little more time. SAM can't.

Granted you could argue that SAMs can use Usu feet. I would assume they would if they had them. That's still using enmity at the cost of haste. Only 1%, but you were already nit picking about 2%.

And of course you can argue in favor of homam for it's HP/MP boost as well. Both of which would be important for a DRK tanking.

As for the kiting thing, what if the sam is feeding TP to a blm to use the Nyzul WS on the kited mob for -mdb, then solos a lvl 3 SC right as the mob you were kiting stops to cast so every BLM can MC? See, I can pull stupid random "less than perfect" scenarios out of my ass also.

You're speaking hypothetically. I'm speaking from experience. There's a huge difference. The SAM still wouldn't have movement speed+. The majority of the time a kited mob stops long enough to do something like that, it's because it's casting a higher tier spell. This is partially why movement speed helps as you're supposed to run out of range unless it's single target and you're /nin. Of course, how is a SAM going to hold hate while kiting if they're /nin? I guess they'd have to be /WAR right? But then they don't have shadows to help mitigate damage. Oh wait, the lv3 SC gives them enough hate to kite right? That'd work...if no one MBs it or tries to do any significant damage to it. Of course then your overall damage goes to hell. And that is the goal yes? A DRK can keep hate capped while they're kiting and let everyone do some serious damage without getting raped. Try again.

And no. It's not covering for lack of jobs. I have PLD and NIN for my tank jobs. There's been plenty of times where I simply had to get there to claim before another LS did. If I had taken the time to change, we wouldn't have claimed and being PLD or NIN would be completely fucking pointless. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

It isn't the least bit hard to comprehend. Until you try to argue which class is better at something based on it.

Ironically enough you obviously couldn't comprehend what I said there. lol.

What if you were DRK/THF solo farming something? Who's gonna tank better, you or the SAM/THF that was solo farming? And please remember you have 0 time to switch jobs.

If you rush to a mob to try to claim with one of those jobs, you have a real tank otw and claim is all that matters. You're just trying to buy time while a real tank gets there. The SAM more than likely would survive longer, that's not much of an argument. That's a pretty fucking stupid example too. That's holding waiting for a real tank, not main tanking. The point I was making in my example is that DRK/NIN is a good enough tank that you can main tank with it effectively enough that it's a good option to save time. It's not just a DD that's going to try to hold it, it can be your tank for the entire fight and still allow everyone else to function as they normally would.

Superseding MP management could mean letting your mages ever fall under 75% MP. It could also mean just making sure you don't die. There are a million different threshold, AS I SAID as to where MP management is. You can supersede each level of mp management separately. Please, don't make me type the same argument a second time.

I said hate/mp/tp management, not just mp. You're the one trying to pick it apart. And it would mean to the point of decreasing the overall damage output and/or potentially wiping. They go hand in hand. I'm not a melee only either. I have plenty of experience as a mage. Just wanted to let you know before you try to explain mage 101 to me. I have a very good grasp on how mp is managed.

Are you always this grouchy? And yes, it is about maximizing overall damage? What the fuck is your point? If I have an option to do 2 damage, or 1 damage and neither one hurts anyone else's damage, 2 damage will do more OVERALL damage than 1.

This isn't me being grouchy. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I had no idea that 2 > 1.

The entire reason I made that statement was in response to:

On other things, like Einherjar/Salvage, if you don't overwhelm the place with twice the needed people, you -need- to optimize your damage as much as possible.

You were telling me in this situation "you need to optimize your damage as much as possible."

I sited myself as saying:

I'm talking about maximizing your overall damage output for the fight (not one person) while staying within the "safe" zone.

Why? Because that's what I had said previous to your post, yet you were now trying to lecture me about when to optimize damage. Which is retarded given that I had already stated that was the goal. Thanks for pointing that out again.

Yea, my bad, when I talk about theoretical shit on forums, I'm not talking about the 1 time I was farming /thf and Khim popped and I had 0 seconds to spare as I ran there, and good thing I was on Sam instead of Drk, 'cause drk/thf can't tank worth a shit, at least I had a chance on sam.
Fine, that never really happened, but please inform me which class tanks better as /thf. I'm sure you'll have a great reason why this situation is irrelevant but your inferior situation is spot on.

Inferior situation? Inferior because it actually happened and is a realistic opportunity to main tank as a DD? Just scroll up again and review what I said about /THF. No one is going to run to a hnm DRK/THF SAM/THF and expect to main tank. That's fucking stupid. That's why it's irrelevant. We were talking about tanking, not holding. If you're on DRK/NIN or SAM/WAR you can actually tank, not hold.

I gotta admit this is one of the more interesting arguments I've had on here in a while. I appreciate your tenacity, lol.

[hagun]

Stupid pointless arguments keep on going. Need a rate down button.

[Gadritan]

It's in standard and I'm bored. Otherwise I would've let it die a long time ago, lol.

[FailureMidgard]

I lied. This is just too good to pass up.

QFT?

It matters because every single DRK has it. How many sams are going to have blade bash merited? Much less capped.

Oh right, forgot, subpar is your game. Every sam worth anything has it merited. Any sam I'd give 2 shits about to take to a lowman situation has at least 4/5. A lot have 5/5.

You really don't think before you post do you?

DRK will have that enmity equipped nearly full time. SAM has the option of sacrificing haste/dd gear for enmity, or only swapping in enmity for /ja. Homam is a haste/DD/enmity set all in one.

DRK fulltimes bmask and sam doesn't? Or do you just mean the 1 piece of Homam with 3 enmity? Last I checked, 5>3.

Usukane Sune-Ate RareExclusive
[Feet] All Races
DEF: 22 Accuracy +7 Attack +7
Store TP +7
Haste +2% Enmity +5
Set: Enhances Haste effect
Lv. 75 MNK / SAM / NIN / PUP

That is fulltimed. There's also enmity on Arhat's, which a sam/war is throwing on when 3rd eye is down. In any case, I think a sam actually has more passive enmity while meleeing. Also, if you are tanking and care about enmity, Askar hands are a damned good alternative to Dusk Gloves...doubt you'll be accuracy capped on Khim, so you can use the Dex, and gain 4 more enmity, only losing 1% haste.

SAM has a 2% advantage in the haste department for uts recast. Aside from the fact that it's an extremely small advantage in terms of recast, a DRK can stun if he needs a little more time. SAM can't.

DRK has the advantage here, I don't disagree. They are different jobs though, and you list off things DRK has while ignoring what Sam has. Sam still has a better -PDT set and parry (which works independent of mob level), and still has Seigan+3rd eye, or 3rdeye+Ichi.

You're speaking hypothetically. I'm speaking from experience. There's a huge difference. The SAM still wouldn't have movement speed+. The majority of the time a kited mob stops long enough to do something like that, it's because it's casting a higher tier spell. This is partially why movement speed helps as you're supposed to run out of range unless it's single target and you're /nin. Of course, how is a SAM going to hold hate while kiting if they're /nin? I guess they'd have to be /WAR right? But then they don't have shadows to help mitigate damage. Oh wait, the lv3 SC gives them enough hate to kite right? That'd work...if no one MBs it or tries to do any significant damage to it. Of course then your overall damage goes to hell. And that is the goal yes? A DRK can keep hate capped while they're kiting and let everyone do some serious damage without getting raped. Try again.

My kite statement was not in reference to tanking. Your post before didn't even mention kiting, just wlegs in your list of gear. It was more in reference to Therin's crap about helping out with Bio2 and Drain and crap. A sam is useless for trying to tank while kiting. Then again, a blm can kite perfectly fine.

Ironically enough you obviously couldn't comprehend what I said there. lol.

So you think SAM and WAR tank "just the same," as a DRK. That's kind of like saying that PLDs and NINs tank "just the same." Seriously. Think people. Think.

You are trying to argue that a DRK is a better "tank". Then your support for that has nothing to do with something that is actually usually tanked by a DRK or a SAM. You go off on some crap about the 1 time you had to save 20 seconds. I'm not saying you were wrong for saving 20 seconds. Hell yea, get there as fast as you can and get the claim. But that is 100% irrelevant to a discussion about how sam and drk compare as tanks.

If you rush to a mob to try to claim with one of those jobs, you have a real tank otw and claim is all that matters. You're just trying to buy time while a real tank gets there. The SAM more than likely would survive longer, that's not much of an argument. That's a pretty fucking stupid example too. That's holding waiting for a real tank, not main tanking. The point I was making in my example is that DRK/NIN is a good enough tank that you can main tank with it effectively enough that it's a good option to save time. It's not just a DD that's going to try to hold it, it can be your tank for the entire fight and still allow everyone else to function as they normally would.

You are truly delusional if you think a Sam/nin can't tank it.

I said hate/mp/tp management, not just mp. You're the one trying to pick it apart. And it would mean to the point of decreasing the overall damage output and/or potentially wiping. They go hand in hand. I'm not a melee only either. I have plenty of experience as a mage. Just wanted to let you know before you try to explain mage 101 to me. I have a very good grasp on how mp is managed.

Hate management is pretty straight forward. I didn't bring it up because it's bland. Keep hate on the tank(s). There is only 1 break point to that. Push your damage as far as you can without pulling hate and dying. Tank wants as much hate as he can so other's can nuke more/etc.
My earlier post listed TP management. Yes, it's important. TP management is knowing how many TP moves you can allow and not have it be a problem on death/MP management. This is different. As I said, there are multiple thresholds here. Never let it TP ever (tiamat)? Let it TP once per 5 minutes? Once per minute? Etc. Having 1 SAM meleeing full-time as a tank is 1 form of TP management. You are limiting it's TP by not having your other melee fulltime. You are letting it have some TP, because you are getting damage + tank hate from it. THERE ARE VARIOUS WAYS TO MANAGE TP.
MP is the same as TP. You can opt to do a little more damage, and cost the mage's more MP (That's how nukes work, also). You can take a sam/war, and use a full -PDT when Seigan is down, or you can take a sam/nin, and rotate between seigan/3rdeye and utsusemis, and take less hits. They are different forms of mp management, but both manage MP to a certain degree, and each has it's own benefit/drawback.

Inferior situation? Inferior because it actually happened and is a realistic opportunity to main tank as a DD? Just scroll up again and review what I said about /THF. No one is going to run to a hnm DRK/THF SAM/THF and expect to main tank. That's fucking stupid. That's why it's irrelevant. We were talking about tanking, not holding. If you're on DRK/NIN or SAM/WAR you can actually tank, not hold.

I gotta admit this is one of the more interesting arguments I've had on here in a while. I appreciate your tenacity, lol.

You truly think a Sam/thf can't main tank? I'd bet pretty much anything I own that one could. Do you really think voke/warcry are absolutely necessary to tank? You do realize they are VE only, so in the long run, they do nothing? Sam is using dmg to generate CE, and it will generate VE as well. /war just gives you more melee damage in DAs and some spike VE.
If you're on sam/thf, you save X seconds by not having to switch subs, and Y more seconds as you get to flee as you run out there. Apologies for not having any exact #s on that. But by your own logic, that is probably worth the loss of damage/VE generation to get out there faster to claim. It is without a doubt a possible scenario.

[Edit: on the enmity discussion, Usu feet isn't full timed, I used the wrong word, but you understand...I hope, it's used during TP, and tbh, during WS Sam is using enmity elsewhere such as Warwolf).

[Gadritan]

YOU WIN! lol.

[Tubbers]

[smn burn is better]

The sad yet hilarious truth. Personal record of 33K exp in one flow session that took 30ish minutes to gather, train, etc. It can vary a lot but for the minimal effort, naked SMNs own.

While we're on the subject of personal records for AF burns (I know we aren't)
"40k" per Korro in ~30 mins (Actually 33k, apparently)
"30k" per Bubu in ~35 mins (Actually 27k)

Being more realistic I think most of the time I flowed we were getting ~38-45k/hr. This far outweighs merits, but requires a lot of sync jobs. This was done with full parties every time. 3 SMN + Sync would yield quite a bit more XP/HR, which is where people are pulling 60k/hr figures from (Besieged possibly, too).

In general the more trainers you have the more and faster exp you'll get. This is especially true of Buburimu.

Anyway, yeah. The point about which DD is the best (in merits) is completely pointless when you realize everything is outclassed by lolSMN. One can argue that SMN burn requires most if not everyone to 2box, and ridiculous setup requirements (lots of COR mules / shouting, several people lined up to sync, etc.). However, once you realize that comparing highest tier DRK and SAM (Apoc/Amano/Tomoe, 2x BRD + COR, many millions of gil in equipment) to naked summoners and lots of mules is actually in favor of the naked summoners and mules in terms of achievability, you stop caring about who can do more damage.

[Chantal]

If you're counting in Sea gear and such Failure, then yeah, DRK really isn't that hard to gear up (same with SAM). Neither of them are impossible to gear up, and I wasn't trying to argue that, just that SAM tends to be easier to gear up for the majority of people. Me, for example, I'd have to give up my RDM lot on AF+1, AFv2, and Nashira gear in my Limbus/Dynamis shell for DRK gear and that's just not gonna happen anytime soon; I'm main RDM. So, for me, SAM seems like the obvious choice right now. If I was gonna max out any of the melees though (Relic weapon/other high-end level gear I mean) it'd probably be DRK, I just have a lot of fun playing on that job, especially with Apocalypse lol.

EDIT: on the subject of SMNburning, I wouldn't do it even if its faster simply because I very much enjoy merit parties but that's just me.

[Knyghtmayre]

While we're on the subject of personal records for AF burns (I know we aren't)
"40k" per Korro in ~30 mins (Actually 33k, apparently)
"30k" per Bubu in ~35 mins (Actually 27k)

Being more realistic I think most of the time I flowed we were getting ~38-45k/hr. This far outweighs merits, but requires a lot of sync jobs. This was done with full parties every time. 3 SMN + Sync would yield quite a bit more XP/HR, which is where people are pulling 60k/hr figures from (Besieged possibly, too).

In general the more trainers you have the more and faster exp you'll get. This is especially true of Buburimu.

Anyway, yeah. The point about which DD is the best (in merits) is completely pointless when you realize everything is outclassed by lolSMN. One can argue that SMN burn requires most if not everyone to 2box, and ridiculous setup requirements (lots of COR mules / shouting, several people lined up to sync, etc.). However, once you realize that comparing highest tier DRK and SAM (Apoc/Amano/Tomoe, 2x BRD + COR, many millions of gil in equipment) to naked summoners and lots of mules is actually in favor of the naked summoners and mules in terms of achievability, you stop caring about who can do more damage.

Why are people so quick to assume that EXP/HR is the only stat that matters. No. A 19SMN is not the same as a 75SAM/DRK/WAR in any way other than they both can get 20k/HR+. Stop trying to derail the argument of DD potential with EXP/HR of something that doesn't matter at all for anything other than getting 3 merits in 30mins then quitting for 2hours and doing it again the next day.

[Gadritan]

My kite statement was not in reference to tanking. Your post before didn't even mention kiting, just wlegs in your list of gear. It was more in reference to Therin's crap about helping out with Bio2 and Drain and crap. A sam is useless for trying to tank while kiting. Then again, a blm can kite perfectly fine.

Kiting mobs I would think go without saying too. SAM and WAR could never hold the hate a DRK can kiting.

...learn to read.

You are trying to argue that a DRK is a better "tank". Then your support for that has nothing to do with something that is actually usually tanked by a DRK or a SAM. You go off on some crap about the 1 time you had to save 20 seconds.

lol.

You are truly delusional if you think a Sam/nin can't tank it.

I was referring to your statement:

but please inform me which class tanks better as /thf

If you rush to a mob to try to claim with one of those jobs, you have a real tank otw and claim is all that matters. You're just trying to buy time while a real tank gets there. The SAM more than likely would survive longer, that's not much of an argument. That's a pretty fucking stupid example too. That's holding waiting for a real tank, not main tanking. The point I was making in my example is that DRK/NIN is a good enough tank that you can main tank with it effectively enough that it's a good option to save time. It's not just a DD that's going to try to hold it, it can be your tank for the entire fight and still allow everyone else to function as they normally would.

Where the fuck did SAM/NIN not being able to tank come into that? And a SAM/NIN can tank yes. But they can't hold dick for hate compared to a DRK/NIN, which again means everyone else has to hold back, which, AGAIN, reduces overall damage. That's what I mean by allowing everyone else to function as they normally would. Again...learn to read.

There is only 1 break point to that. Push your damage as far as you can without pulling hate and dying. Tank wants as much hate as he can so other's can nuke more/etc.
My earlier post listed TP management. Yes, it's important. TP management is knowing how many TP moves you can allow and not have it be a problem on death/MP management. This is different. As I said, there are multiple thresholds here. Never let it TP ever (tiamat)? Let it TP once per 5 minutes? Once per minute? Etc. Having 1 SAM meleeing full-time as a tank is 1 form of TP management. You are limiting it's TP by not having your other melee fulltime. You are letting it have some TP, because you are getting damage + tank hate from it. THERE ARE VARIOUS WAYS TO MANAGE TP.
MP is the same as TP. You can opt to do a little more damage, and cost the mage's more MP (That's how nukes work, also). You can take a sam/war, and use a full -PDT when Seigan is down, or you can take a sam/nin, and rotate between seigan/3rdeye and utsusemis, and take less hits. They are different forms of mp management, but both manage MP to a certain degree, and each has it's own benefit/drawback.

I said hate/mp/tp management, not just mp. You're the one trying to pick it apart. And it would mean to the point of decreasing the overall damage output and/or potentially wiping.

...learn to read.

You truly think a Sam/thf can't main tank? I'd bet pretty much anything I own that one could.

Effectively, no. And that was the point.

Done with ya. It was amusing, but you're just too fucking stupid for me to bother with anymore.

[Ruuz]

I love how we have two (three now?) simultaneous discussions going on. Some are still on the which two hander has the biggest penis, others on how awesome MNK is and how the previous discussion doesnt matter cause nothing is better than MNK anyways (I concur), and now some SMN are trying to show how awesome they are since they can get more xp/hr at all levels than anyone else.

Really though, I want to hear more about this counterstancing party that let the MNK die two times and he still came within ~5% of two uber 2h. And the Monk wasnt even that hard core about the job (as far as I can tell: half merits, lazy focus, probably no swap for Att, just chillin). I personally have a 5min macro with Berserk, Focus, and Counterstance which is hit the second those 5min are up. Add enmity in with the Temple Crown and Melee Gaiters to get the mob facing you (Counterstance is MNK's largest enmity JA) and keep voking it whenever possible.

I personally considered leveling a RDM zombie on another account just so I could come MNK/WAR to parties. If you can keep Acc high and the mob facing you, MNK damage goes way up.

Edit: I get the feeling Monks in HNM shells have to develop a certain sneakiness to get away with it. Not sure what would work better, coming /anon or showing up right on time but not with enough time to change your job ^^. Or just never level another job (I think this is what I'm sticking too for now).

[Thorny]

You are overestimating Despot.

I got a Gem of the West this morning toward my new character's haidate. Thank god it only took ~110k exp trioing statues over a 2-week period.

[FailureMidgard]

I don't think you have a clue how much enmity a sam can burst with his 2hr.

~2500 damage will cap VE. That's counting any solo SC dmg you get too. Don't think it's very hard for a Sam to get 2500 damage out of his 2hr. CE takes 7500 damage at most to cap. Granted, enmity is lose per hit, but both jobs can cap VE insanely fast. Sam will actually cap it faster. At 7500 damage, CE is capped. May take a short bit of time, but really not long, and I doubt it will actually noticeably affect your kill time.

As for my /thf statement. If you are on drk/thf, and Mr. Sam is already on sam/thf. You have the option to change jobs, and then you miss claim by 15 seconds, or you go with what you have. Wasn't this the entire premise behind the whole point of your shithole argument? So you get to tank with a drk/thf, a sam/thf, or let another shell get claim. Hey, look at that. We're talking about less than prefect situations here please, don't derail the topic onto assuming people have proper subs. If people don't have proper main jobs, why bother with them having proper subs? Especially with the addition of mog satchel, why is it more valid to not be able to spend 10 seconds zoning in and out to change main jobs than it is to switch subs...if you want claim and need that 10 seconds, you need that 10 seconds.
I don't actually believe a Sam/thf is a good tank. If you are taking that out of it, then you're an idiot. But it without a doubt can successfully tank anything a Sam/war can. I'm not sure why you'd be opposed to using it if it meant you got there faster and got claim - the same reason you even bothered using a drk in the first place.

And your management shit is still subjective to the group. How much you can take is still based on how good your support is. With your un-engaged DRK that has no real DD except a Sam that only WSed and a SMN, yea, you can hold hate perfectly fine.

Really, everything you type is just a load of shit.
You call Usu feet a loss of haste, and yet it's actually a gain of 2% haste (can switch to 3% haste feet for Utsu cast if ya want) because you're not going to be running Fuma+Dusk gloves really, you're using 1 piece of Hachi. Clearly you aren't a Sam, and have no earthly clue what is a haste gain or haste loss.
And then you say Homam is a pure enmity gain, and not a loss of haste. Sure, this is true for a NQ Drk. Loss of 1% haste vs Dusk+1 though.
You contradict yourself on speed to get claim being the most important thing.
You have no clue on enmity values at all, and really have no clue how much enmity a Sam's 2hr can generate.
You bring up stun for keeping shadows up/getting shadows back up, but completely ignore the existence of seigan/3rd eye. You bring up MDB gear and ignore all the -PDT sam has available.

Really, I dunno which one is a better tank. I'd say that it depends on the fight, and they both have certain fights they are better at. But you bring up your stupid fucking corner cases that nobody even cares about just to rub one out or something in a discussion about the differences/etc between jobs.

As I said, 'grats, DRK is the superior job, on the basis that it is a better tank for the Liberator fight.

[Raen Ryong]

You are overestimating Despot. Back then when I actually cared about sky I could pop Despot solo without any competition at offpeak hours, heck sometimes I was all alone at Ru'aun Gardens.

I wish -_- 0/388 on popping Despot, all in window, often alone. HATE that NM.

To add something constructive to the discussion, in terms of subjobs, SAM can still perform well in a DD capacity under /nin in particular which DRK cannot. We thrive on /sam. This means that SAM is more flexible in terms of SJ choices at least.

[Max™]

Sam has it harder, expense wise?

Sams have to get a Kclub/Mkris/Ridill to be top end zerg jobs... I didn't realize this.

Drk without one of those weapons is a hobby job, while you aren't always using them, the potential utility of them far outweighs the totality of the other utility of said Drk.

So yeah, Mkris isn't too bad, about Hagun price... don't forget THAT in your AH vs AH comparison.

[Mayareira]

Discussion wasn't really about zerg builds, etc. But if we include that, a B. Zaghnal(free) DRK will still zerg better, or just as good as an AH SAM.
It was a general statement. Even pre-75, a DRK has to do much more than equipping an easy-to-obtain weapon(Soboro) to play a worthwhile role in party.

So yeah, DRK is a lot harder to gear up in terms of efficency, but a DRK with not-so-great resources can still make a decent zerg build with Fortitude Axe, Zaghnal, etc.

[Max™]

When all set up, with a couple-thousand gil Icarus Wing, a smart Sam will spam like... a fucking goddamn bajillion WSes (seriously, I don't even know anymore how much they could do with Sekka, Meditate, and Iwings during Meikyo, tree-fiddy?).

Bzaghnal ain't exactly AH gear by a goddamn long shot, Mkris is... but it's right around Hagun price.

Were we comparing it? No, but that's like ignoring Penta because it's only really top tier shit at bird camp.

A Drk without a good zerk weapon is a Dork.

[FailureMidgard]

When all set up, with a couple-thousand gil Icarus Wing, a smart Sam will spam like... a fucking goddamn bajillion WSes (seriously, I don't even know anymore how much they could do with Sekka, Meditate, and Iwings during Meikyo, tree-fiddy?).

Bzaghnal ain't exactly AH gear by a goddamn long shot, Mkris is... but it's right around Hagun price.

Were we comparing it? No, but that's like ignoring Penta because it's only really top tier shit at bird camp.

A Drk without a good zerk weapon is a Dork.

While I fully agree a good drk should have a zerg setup, we were merely talking about gearing for "normal" DD purposes at a base NQ level, and then a best-in-slot type level, and what each job could do as this.

I "forgot" as you say, your mkris, and at least 2-3 extra sets of gear for sam (and for drk), because they weren't pertinent to what was being discussed. I also left off shit like Black Tathlum, Ifrit's Bow from Sam, which costs more than your mkris (though admittedly less than a KC).

[Mayareira]

Oh yes I definitely agree. A serious DRK should at least have a Ridill(Kris and club being the superior options) for zerging purposes. Plus the HP gear, etc.

However, I reckon cheaper/easier to obtain weapons like Axe/B. Zaghnal would be better than nothing for a DRK with very limited resources and different job priorities. Of course, this doesn't change the fact that DRK requires much more resources to be as efficent, or lets say as useful as a SAM.

While I fully agree a good drk should have a zerg setup, we were merely talking about gearing for "normal" DD purposes at a base NQ level, and then a best-in-slot type level, and what each job could do as this.

For normal purposes, again, a DRK has to do much more than equipping soboro/hagun and stacking crapload of cheapass STR gear for WS.