DD Potential Discussion from Media

[FailureMidgard]

Give the DRK Perdu Sickle or Moliones', not the Death Scythes~

I can't tell you exactly how much 24atk will improve SS since the attack bonus it receives innately hasn't been confirmed, but so long as said attack bonus doesn't end up capping it, it will improve it by a fair amount. Less with SA.

Again, that's irrelevant to my outcome. The only thing being examined is percent change in damage. In fact, if anything, I'd put Moliones' on the low tier set (~575k would leave the DRK still under the SAM in gil spent on the low tier set), and that would lower the % gain from the high tier set for the DRK.

The only gear changes that can be suggested that will alter this -against- my conclusion, is a change that would only up the damage of the high tier set, while being unusable as a low tier option.

[Gadritan]

Learn something new everyday. Thank ya.

[Ruuz]

Ares's~

Didnt mean to imply that DRK has nothing to gain from Salvage, but while all the Usukane pieces are amazing and together are fappable, I see only a few very good Ares pieces. The Ares body is very nice where Acc isnt an issue and just for idle. I think the legs are also pretty good for WS, but since Haste and Acc are really the name of the game for TP, the set seems situational at best.

[Max™]

Okotes > Askar hands > Dusk hands > Dusk +1 would be significantly better for Usu feet sams than any other build, keeping 6 hit while increasing haste to higher and higher values, not sure if that's what you mean.

[FailureMidgard]

Okotes > Askar hands > Dusk hands > Dusk +1 would be significantly better for Usu feet sams than any other build, keeping 6 hit while increasing haste to higher and higher values, not sure if that's what you mean.

Huh? Askar and Okote are both worse than Full Usu for sure. Dusk NQ is debatable, Dusk+1 is better.

[Ruuz]

I think the only ones who really need (if you can call it that) the full Usukane are MNK (PUP too I guess, but this game doesnt need PUP, so...). Since we dont have haste hands and the set directly replaces the alternatives haste wise. I think it is still a good set for SAM and NIN when high acc is needed or a good all around piece, but if you can get Ace's, Dusk +1, Haub +1, Byakko's, and Usu feet, that will probably be better for SAM (at least in merit situation). Just my assumption's though. I havent run the numbers or anything.

[Gadritan]

Didnt mean to imply that DRK has nothing to gain from Salvage, but while all the Usukane pieces are amazing and together are fappable, I see only a few very good Ares pieces. The Ares body is very nice where Acc isnt an issue and just for idle. I think the legs are also pretty good for WS, but since Haste and Acc are really the name of the game for TP, the set seems situational at best.

Yeah. Legs are win. Body is really, really situational. Rest is garbage compared to alternatives.

-

On another note, I have DRG DRK WAR lvled for DD jobs already. I'm bored to death with WAR and only use it for merits. DRG is just there for solo and bird camps. DRK I use for pretty much everything else DD wise.

I keep trying to finish my SAM and MNK, but I keep losing interest in them. I don't know why. They just bore me for some reason.

Any suggestions for someone who prefers melee style jobs? Pretty much everything else I have is 40+.

I just wanted to get some input before I start to gear up another job. I've already got a very large variety of gear waiting that would apply to pretty much any of the melee jobs left.

I need something that's going to keep my interest. I need a DD job that has more fun potential than damage potential since I already have 2/3 of the higher end damage dealers.

Something I can use at smaller events and/or solo and such.

[Max™]

Pup.

[Max™]

Huh? Askar and Okote are both worse than Full Usu for sure. Dusk NQ is debatable, Dusk+1 is better.

I meant comparing a:

Ace's/PCC/Brutal/Bushi
Haub +1/(Hands)/Acc +1/Rajas
Cuch/Vbelt/Haidate/Usu shooz

Sam going from Okotes > Askar > Dusk > Dusk +1 would produce a much greater change in their total damage than a:

Turban/PCC/Brutal/Mermans
Haub/Hachi/Acc/Rajas
Fora/Swift/Haidate/Fumashooz

Sam going Hachi > anything, losing 6 hit, then progressing Okotes > Askar > Dusk > Dusk +1 wouldn't give as much benefit as the Usu sam gains.


Notes: this is a very limited and somewhat trivial example, and I said PCC cause I'd prefer it for my HQ sam build if I had one.

[Kohan]

I keep trying to finish my SAM and MNK, but I keep losing interest in them. I don't know why. They just bore me for some reason.

Any suggestions for someone who prefers melee style jobs? Pretty much everything else I have is 40+.

I just wanted to get some input before I start to gear up another job. I've already got a very large variety of gear waiting that would apply to pretty much any of the melee jobs left.

I need something that's going to keep my interest. I need a DD job that has more fun potential than damage potential since I already have 2/3 of the higher end damage dealers.

Something I can use at smaller events and/or solo and such.

As I haven't leveled it high enough to comment, I'll let someone else take the SAM front. MNK, however, has been my primary job for all these years, and only recently did I even take another class to 75 (BLM). I've never grown bored of it, and have always found one way or another to enjoy the job, and here is what I've done to maintain my enthusiasm.

For one, the simple concept of "engage, WS, and you're done" is just that -- a concept far too simple to captivate anyone's mind. Though I could say there's fun to be had in blood tanking low level (e.g., pre-30) parties as a MNK/WAR, I'm going to suppose you're already higher than that. If you're not, you already have tanked in endgame; I won't need to tell you how to do it, but I certainly loved it, myself.

I often find enjoyment in evaluating how quickly the enemies are dying, and determining how to react to the situation. Though I'll ideally use WS at 100% (and one would hope for such optimal conditions even pre-endgame, unless Magic Bursts were being used), I have to decide whether I've time to use Boost or not. Is it worth the modifier, or are the enemies dying too quickly, thus nullifying that? This is far more of a concern during merit PTs and the like, but it can be beforehand as well, particularly in these fine days of Level Sync PTs stuffed with CORs and BRDs.

There is always the pro-WAR sub argument, and various ways of tweaking your effectiveness accordingly. Unless you're in a PT with people you can't trust, there's no real reason to sub NIN prior to 74. When you're really young, you shouldn't be taking hate for such a period of time as to truly risk dying; you'll probably be on-par with the others in your PT, and below the level of enmity generated by your tank. If you're going to hold onto hate through those three shadows, you'll probably keep on holding it through several smacks, too. The same general argument that applies to endgame applies here, even if the surroundings differ: are your mages really using all their MP? If they're not, and it doesn't break your PT's stride, give them a reason to.

When a MNK is at a level to wear all of the following: Jujitsu Gi, Peacock Charm/Amulet, Sniper's/Woodsman Rings, Brown and Life Belts, and TM Hooks +2/Cross-Counters/Retaliators, that's when things start getting serious. The ACC problems of before are behind you, and more potent lower delay weapons present themselves, leaving you free to focus on MNK's strength: DOT. You actually do have to start worrying more about hate, but come 58, you'll have the Cyclas to help you mitigate damage with a more effective Chakra, and can actually start playing with multiple gear sets.

There's one for ACC, both for general melee and WS (where you could, for example, swap Haste feet for +ATK, and of course later, +ACC). Aside from that, there's additional pieces of VIT for Chakra, should you have the space for it. If you're feeling truly invested, you can also acquire MND gear to beef up Chi Blast a bit, since the extra enmity generated by it at the beginning of a battle probably won't weaken anything but the wussiest NIN's ability to hold mobs' attention, unless you're taking a thousand years to pull each mob (and thereby Boosting a shit-ton of times).

Basically, it's making the job more complicated than it would be if you just used it to melee. Such is done by using everything you can to the fullest potential. I've heard people say they don't want MNKs to Chi Blast in a PT, and while from colibri-ish level onward -- I admit I'm not terribly familiar with this, since I leveled my melee in the olden days -- that would possibly be unsafe/ridiculous/impossible (because mobs shouldn't take that long to pull, as aforementioned). But if you're in a more traditional camp fighting things like Goblins and have a PLD, and your healers don't suck ass, I really don't see a few hundred points of damage (if that) at the beginning being a terrible detriment. If you're in a PT with support that's burning through mobs, who cares? Use it.

When you're at 74-75, as is the case with most jobs, plenty of other options become available to you. Especially with Counter merits, and pieces of equipment like the aforementioned Cross-Counters, there's plenty of stuff which MNK can solo. A lot of it will be challenging, some of it incredibly easy, and all of it a different approach from NIN soloing, for obvious reasons.

In actual merit PTs, there's plenty more to play with. Hoping you'll be subbing WAR, you have to determine when to pop Focus (ideally using your Temple Crown while doing so), wanting to get the maximum usage out of it while also not wanting to delay yourself from hitting the enemy for your total possible amount of strikes. So, do you use it right before you engage, right as something is dying but you know you're not going to get another round of swings in, or...? The same applies to Berserk (hence /WAR having been mentioned), or truthfully, even casting shadows as /NIN. Where do you fit it in while still maximizing your damage output?

Continuing with the MNK/WAR example, there's the fun of using Warcry and knowing you won't have to Boost, being able to let loose once it's time without fear of losing an attack round or so. Of course, when you do Boost -- or Focus, or Dodge, or use Chakra -- there's macro swaps to be concerned with, and the aforementioned delay to your damage, unless you use them between battles, or right as a previous attack round is coming up (so your ability fires off while the attacks do).

Then, in emergency situations, there's your ability to hold mobs (e.g., /NIN or /WAR with support, Counterstance w/Melee Gaiters, +Counter gear/weapon/merits, etc.)...

There's also a large variety of things where MNK can make a good tank, and of course, one of the most often mentioned examples is Salvage, but that isn't the only thing.

Despite missing a lot of ideal endgame MNK equipment, I still have several different macro sets for it for a variety of situations, including variations of them (e.g., fighting Mamool or fighting Colibri, full-timing Counter gear). I know that this is not the norm, but then again, it isn't for any job.

It just depends on how much you're willing to pour into it, and naturally, the more you invest, the more you get back. Because of its ability to adapt to a variety of situations -- to do DOT, to zerg with 2HR, to solo a wide variety of enemies, to tank in certain situations -- I find MNK to be a thoroughly entertaining job.

[Wolfknight]

Yeah. Legs are win. Body is really, really situational. Rest is garbage compared to alternatives.

I am just wondering when you defended heca harness for acc, why you don't see ares gaunlets as useable for anything since they offer most acc on hands slot and some str, seems like would better than AF+1 or heca for multi hit on drk, or I am missing something that beats them?

[Ruuz]

As MNK from day 1, I just plain like the job. I guess part of it is what I'm used to, but I just like hitting hard and fast. NIN is also pretty fun for me. DRK is just too slow for my tastes. If what makes a job fun is how may timers you have to ride, I dont think MNK is for you. Really, MNK alone just has Focus, Counterstance, Chakra, and Chi Blast (Dodge if you are doing solo stuff). /WAR adds Berserk and Warcry for you to play with, but really it isnt that hard. Damage on Monk is really straightforward, imo. If you are keeping offensive abilities up whenever they are available, the rest is just point and shoot.

The job doesn't have a whole lot of finesse, it seems to me. You are either tanking or not doing enough damage. Still, just the feel of the job is awesome to me. I really wish we had a good defensive ability (and could /WAR more often), but I doubt SE will ever give it to us ^^.

[Hyan]

Eh, I find MNK to be perfect job to lead with in events (especially salvage) for example. I don't lose as much potential when I engage mob, start to call cells and think about the strat while not really focused in the fight itself. Auto-attack gets me far, and I don't have to worry about voking mobs/pulling/healing and all that stuff. When cell order doesn't matter anymore I can start doing my monky-stuff again anyway.

[pchan]

I really wish we had a good defensive ability (and could /WAR more often), but I doubt SE will ever give it to us ^^.

Counterstance is an awesome defensive ability if paired with utsusemi.

[Fridell]

I see nice numbers. Thanks.
Is it possible to count in JAs / merits / spells etc and do math for these?
Edit, and account for that DRKs can have different WS setups for their Guillotine depending on mob, where SAM can keep their STR for G/Y/K.

[Shinryuu]

Where's one of those math whores when you need one.

Anyone?

How much is 24att gonna improve SS and GS with and without using SA?

I'm farrrrrrrrrrrrrrr too stoned atm to even attempt it.

Spinning Slash: likely next to nothing due to the innate pDIF bonus, so the attack would only improve TPing. GS, assuming it doesn't get such a bonus: with a 400 defense mob and you having 600 attack, with a mob 8 levels above you, you'll have 1.1 pDIF at first and 1.16 after (level corrected). It's a 5.45% increase in damage. This goes for the TPing phase too (so basically, a total damage increase of 5,45% when using GS).

Now with SA: same numbers except +1 to both. Now, for the SA'd WS, 24 attack gives a 2.85% increase. With a 50/50 TP/WS ratio that's a total damage increase of 4,15%.

Edit: By the way I have no fucking clue what piece you're talking about but somehow I assumed it was the weapon. Looking back, it's probably Ares cuirass. Well if it's Ares, just take the WS increase (5.45% w/o SA, 2.85% with SA) because you're using something else for TPing, lest I not fucking kill you.

[Gadritan]

Yeah. It was Ares's vs Hecatomb. Same str but Ares's has att+24. I appreciate the numbers^^

I am just wondering when you defended heca harness for acc, why you don't see ares gaunlets as useable for anything since they offer most acc on hands slot and some str, seems like would better than AF+1 or heca for multi hit on drk, or I am missing something that beats them?

I wasn't defending it for acc. I flat out said I wasn't sure exactly how the att from Ares's would affect non-crit single hit WS and that acc was just something extra on heca.


http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g1..._Gauntlets.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g1...ombmittens.png

I've never had acc issues bad enough to dictate using them over heca. That and I'm primarily a GS DRK since I only use it on bigger stuff. So Alkys > for me 99% of the time anyways. I can see what you mean though. They'd be a good swap if your WS acc is low.

[Gadritan]

Uh. Kohan? I said MNK and SAM are boring to me and wanted other options. Not a novel on how MNK is such an entertaining job for you. That's cool and all, but it's boring as hell to me, lol.

[Max™]

Monk is dopey fun.

To a Monk, there is no problem you can't solve by punching it.

Turn your brain off and just bludgeon things, that's the main appeal I found in it.

The happy satisfaction of making things beat themselves to death against my fists.

[Gadritan]

Yeah. That's great. I can't stand MNK.

8million reasons why other people like it isn't going to change my mind.

Guess I'll flip a coin since no one has any real input.