DD Potential Discussion from Media

[BerenTebogo]

You're pretty much the only person in this entire forum who doesn't know, so in the words of that really annoying smiley that pops up on my AIM from time to time (or used to) ASK SOMEBAHHHHHHHHHHHHDY

Edit: For a point other than arrogance (I know I know, I'm feeling nice today) my point, which you so graciously missed, was that it is indeed like you said: I gimped the fuck around with a job I didn't level in shitty gear and never used WS swaps and STILL destroyed a WAR with better than average gear (yes, I'm aware polearm is cheating but SAM overall is one big konami code)

For any other DD job it just wouldn't be possible. If I ran out on DRK in full askar and no gear swaps I'd have some fucking AWESOME 300 damage guillotines, and everyone here knows it.

Now for completedness sake, that lolz party was about 3 weeks ago. Having realized first hand how broken SAM is I took the time to pick up some gear while I wait to transfer my other character over.

Spoiler: show

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...508_135107.jpg

You are correct though, I am a huge fucking gimp when it comes to some things (BRD) I just cannot bring myself to buy gear for that fucking job, oh well.

[Tagus]

You're pretty much the only person in this entire forum who doesn't know, so in the words of that really annoying smiley that pops up on my AIM from time to time (or used to) ASK SOMEBAHHHHHHHHHHHHDY

Yeah, I figured I was missing something, what with all the hairdryer in the bathtub and a Taiwanese hooker talk..... It sounded a bit too professional for your typical askar sam.

[Gadritan]

If you have capped H2H merits, I'm rather sure PCC will be superior for you (and coincidentally, this has already been mentioned within the thread).

Yeah. I recall there being a small discussion about this a long time ago. iirc PCC > Faith if you have capped merits due to still being 1pt short of the next tier. Whereas if you have only 4 h2h merits Faith would be more beneficial since it would break the next tier putting you @291 skill vs 284.

From the previous page~

[Max™]

Jesus Christ wow.

Spoiler: show

Sath had a Kikoku Nin who was working on Nosepicker I think before he got LM-17'D

Know what I think would help Monk keep up?

Make Footwork give 2her Str/Dex:Acc/Att boost, and give them another Martial Arts trait.

If you assume that people are burning JA's every time they are up, using perfectly optimized gearsets, windower macroswaps that never fail and contain perfectly chosen swaps for all situations, murdering an endless string of mobs.

You can then focus strictly on a few things: Average damage per attack round, Accuracy, Crit rates, Attack, Average rounds to 100% TP, Average WS damage, Delay, Multi-hitting traits/weapons, and the specific boosts from the various abilities.

Then you'd get three sets of numbers:

War Dmg per hour: Some big number
Sam Dmg per hour: A very similar big number
Mnk Dmg per hour: A smaller number than the other two

No one in their right mind would argue that War and Sam are more focused strictly on the purpose of damage dealing than Mnk.

War and Sam were at least intended in certain ways to tank, for one thing, there wouldn't be the combination of offensive/defensive abilities/skills/traits, the gear access, and just as a funny little point: the two highest Enm values on Artifact armor pieces are on War and Sam AF, body 8 and feet 5 respectively.

Mnk get's a couple of abilities which are only intended to keep it standing. Dodge isn't much but it helps a little, Chakra is the same. Focus is an obvious DD boost, Counter/Counterstance is a defensive ability which increases your damage output... while oddly reducing parts of your defensive ability itself. Everything else on Mnk, all the traits, the "style" of play encouraged by the job, centers around murdering shit quickly.

It was one of the best ways to do that for a long time, while the other 1hed DD's had an artificial dominance due to the fStr calculation making damage over time brokenly awesome in most cases, Mnk shouldn't have been left behind with them after the 2hed update.

It's a different case.

[BerenTebogo]

I changed focus to Bravura after Lyra came out with the original numbers for AM3s and the offhand relic nerf.

So yeah, resuming Bravura progress because I <3 Bravura.

/derail

[FailureMidgard]

I think you should post the parse Sath.

[BerenTebogo]

Ask Ramgay, he's the one who parsed it. I didn't even intend to do more than 10% damage honestly

[Max™]

Good, you can help me test the ACTUAL GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING EFFECT OF METATRON TORMENT AFTERMATH cause this vague as shit "it gives Def boost" "it gives -12.5% Dmg taken" "it gives -20% Dmg taken" crap ain't cutting it.

Oh, and before anyone says "Did you just argue for the stats on AF being a hint of the purpose of the jobs?", yes, I did. Yes I am aware of shit like Chr on Pld af, (it obviously improves shield block rates, assholes, not Enmity, why else would it be on the shield boots of goodness), Agi on War af (DA GO!), and such.

Nonetheless, Rdm and Nin were not jobs they intended or expected to tank, they didn't get Enm on their AF.

War, Sam, and Pld were. They all have +Enm on their AF, several mage jobs get -Enm on their AF, it isn't hard to see a pattern here. I recall certain Thf pieces getting +Enm as well, but I assume that is intended for TA hate transfer personally, and might have just been AF2 so blah.

[FailureMidgard]

Ask Ramgay, he's the one who parsed it. I didn't even intend to do more than 10% damage honestly

I think if we look at the parse, you're gonna find that your ebody warrior is probably the one you should be telling to uninstall the game. I'd bet he is going to be short on swings because he was late engaging, or short on # of WSes for his swings, because he wasn't going at 100 TP.

You may have been gimping up on your gear (though I hope you realize fulltime Byakko's is good for Polearm...), but he was probably gimping up his playstyle (esp since he didn't use Polearm too...).

[BerenTebogo]

I think if we look at the parse, you're gonna find that your ebody warrior is probably the one you should be telling to uninstall the game. I'd bet he is going to be short on swings because he was late engaging, or short on # of WSes for his swings, because he wasn't going at 100 TP.

You may have been gimping up on your gear (though I hope you realize fulltime Byakko's is good for Polearm...), but he was probably gimping up his playstyle (esp since he didn't use Polearm too...).

Fail I love you, but I'm going to smack you with a stick for missing the obvious use of hyperbole to express my point here (and yes, obviously Byakko's are good)

Edit for like the 10,000th time today: @Max - I wouldn't get your dick hard yet. I need to level and gear BLM and PLD on my other character as well before I really start progress all over again. I'm aiming @10 months from now give or take

[TybudX]

OK, we all know that WAR/SAM and SAM/WAR are fantastic DDs, yada yada yada, but this is how I see it. I'll describe my in-game life first, so people understand where I'm coming from before jumping on my conclusions.

My situation: I am in a small LS that does low-man events. Most things I come BLM or COR to (I feel the need to clarify that the TP gear set Max posted for WAR on the previous page is identical to mine minus the Dusk +1... Leather 76 and rising. My WS set ups are even more fine tuned, with HQ heca missing legs/head, and no Cerb +1). We do Limbus, zeni, Salvage, some sea, a little bit of Dynamis (not for currency, but for targeting certain AF)... group has about 10, 12 people. Anything we don't use PLD to tank is done with BLU and MNK, and we use BLM and RNG as our main sources of damage when warranted... out of AoE range, and big bang for the buck as far as TP feeding goes (only matters on a few things). We only have two people with SAM at 75, neither main jobs, so what we do in game to win does not reflect what I am about to say.

As well, my SAM is 37 as a support job, and I have no interest in finishing it. Aside from THF, which fills a void, I don't see the point of having more than one melee job leveled. Even I can see how much more a SAM has to offer in most situations than a WAR, though. People are talking about how close they are in damage, and how 'equally geared' SAM and WAR (and other jobs) will be better at one thing over the other. The problem is that any SAM can get free weaponskills, free skill chains, and can do it at intervals that allow for it to break most in-game situations. WAR needs a steady stream of mobs to TP on, even /sam, and that doesn't happen anywhere outside merits and Einherjar. Most events are stop and go, stop and go, which makes the cool down on a SAM's meditate obsolete, while a WAR will gain nothing in the between time.

There are times when a WAR meleeing on a mob will be sustained for periods of time that would equal this out, but in most of those situations, having a SAM stand out of range and Meditate every time they can is more efficient (or a PLD stand there and Atonement, but that's not the point). It's easier on the tanks, easier on MP... it reduces most of the risks associated with meleeing to a minimum. This isn't even considering the fact that the times a SAM does go in to weapon skill, they can perform skill chains without the aid of another melee.

I'm also completely ignoring the fact that SAM can be a capable a tank based on it's own native job abilities and gear access, regardless of support job. A WAR attempting to tank will almost always be restricted to /nin. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it does limit potential damage, as compared to a SAM/WAR. The SAM/WAR can play aggressively regardless of the situation, while the WAR/SAM can... pop Defender (f. no)? Ride out a couple hits on 3rd Eye and Seigan? We all know that 3rd Eye/Seigan from /sam is nothing compared to the full on SAM main. Then you get SAM/NIN, which gets to ride hasted recast timers as well as having the 'fallback' of switching over to 3rd Eye and Seigan (I might be wrong on how #rd Eye/Seigan effect Ninjitsu recast timers, I assume that as long as they are not up when you cast shadows, the recast of shadows will be unaffected? As in, you can 3rd Eye, Seigan, anticipate, get hit, cancel Seigan, cast shadows with regular timers?).

So yes, SAM might be very close to equal when you get right down to it for damage potential, even tied with a few other jobs at various other things, but SAM has access to some of the very best job abilities in the game, with no restrictions. The next nearest competitor becomes a burden in situations where the SAM actually does start to pull ahead. They can be a full on DD, tank, stand out of range and time WSs to avoid feeding TP... anything 'DD" could want to do, they can do. The advantages they have are without sacrifice.

I remember once somebody said that the only problem with WAR main was that they could not sub WAR... this is it. This is the nail on the head. Yes, WAR might be a bit better than SAM on 'smaller' things, where a multi-hit weapon skill and a better chance at the crit modifier playing a factor make a difference, but once you start fighting harder and harder things, if you had to choose between a WAR or a SAM, and could make the choice? The shear utility of SAM outweighs any advantage WAR might have in some situations. It fits better with more strategies than any other heavy DD job.

So yeah, that's my two cents. It's an unfortunate standpoint, because I am sitting on the currency for a Bravura, but can't see any purpose in completing it outside my own satisfaction.

[Ruuz]

Barring the hands/feet, I don't feel the other pieces are as desireable as other options FOR MNK. Even the feet piss me off because you have to give away that last 1% haste in the "perfect" haste build for MNK.

Even when we have 25% Haste, we actually only have 24.6% haste due to internal rounding. And 7Acc, 7Att, 7sTP is more than worth 1 Haste imo.

You're really saying that you can't compete with SAM's and WAR's as MNK? That's rather sad.

It really depends on the gear and activity. MNK's have a lot of very good, but also very hard to get gear. One of Monk's major advantages is the ~8% haste that we can achieve over non-uber 2h, but well geared WAR can still get to 25% and SAM and DRK can get close (Dusk Hands are hardcore), and that is compared to Black Belt (really, as amazing as BB is, it doesnt set us that far apart, if at all). Also with /SAM or SAM and hasso they can bypass our Haste advantage and have over 20Acc and 20Att with higher base dmg weapons (we sitll hit faster, but as mob def gets high, our damage goes waaaaaay down).

SAM is cruise-control for lulzy damage. That isn't to say other well skilled players on WAR, and to a lesser extent DRK, won't run train all over the best GKT SAMs from time to time, but in terms of getting a job to 75 and then having it be full-fledged DD with little to no work? Yeah, that's SAM. It's called Hagun, fucktards, it ejaculates damage.

I'm sorry but if you, or a SAM you know, are having trouble not sucking then this might not be the right game for you. In fact, this might not be the right life for you. Try plugging in a hair dryer and taking it into the bath with you, it's just like hitting reset.

As far as gearing other jobs appropriately to not suck - it's all relative. Any 2h DDer if you sub SAM and hasso full time (to either compensate for sucky gear or to be a horrendous asshole to your mages, I am the latter) you will be able to put up good enough numbers to maintain 20k/hr on lolibris np.

I apologize vehemently if I've offended anyone in this long and terrible rant, and of course by apologize I mean, "if I've offended you it's because you fucking suck at your jobs. Throw your computer or PS2 out the window now."

SAM is the easiest fucking job in the game to be above average at. Every single job in this game takes work, dedication, and attention to detail to be FANTASTIC at.

This is some epic shit right here. Serious lols and serious truth.

[PeaceNLove]

My MNK (Destroyers, Full Usukane, Black Belt, Amemet +1, Faith Torque, Brutal, Ethereal, Toreador's, Ulth Ring) - loses parse to a WAR/SAM in my LS.

The WAR/SAM uses Ares Body, Rune Chopper, Byakko's Haidate, Swift Belt, Aurum Sabatons - I think Rajas and Ulth Ring - Brutal, Ethereal - not sure on the rest...

In a 3 DD party, the WAR is usually around 35%, I'll be around 33% or so... Some other WAR/SAMs can beat me sometimes (win some, lose some) - others can't beat me at all... The WAR/SAM that always beats me just got V.Belt too, so now I'm really boned.

I've lose parse in merits to a SAM once - pre-Usukane - and that was right after the 2H-buff (before it was nerfed)... He was being a dick and using Gekko on mobs at 2% HP...

I really don't think MNK/WAR has a place in meripo unless you're trying to prove something. Even with elite gear, you're just an above average DD with no defense against a mob's WS (pretty much the only real killers in merits). Seriously just level SAM or WAR and you'll have better damage output while not dying to every Fang Rush. And if this was at bird camp... even more reason to level one of those two and pick up a polearm.

Like Kellanved said a while back when he posted the parse with Richardd, him, and me: MNK/WAR can keep up, but the juice isn't worth the squeeze when you're eating 1k+ damage every TP move. I'd venture I can turn that ~3% over Rich into 6%, if he were still around, utilizing Provoke/Retaliation as I've recently been accustomed to.

[Kohan]

I really don't think MNK/WAR has a place in meripo unless you're trying to prove something. Even with elite gear, you're just an above average DD with no defense against a mob's WS (pretty much the only real killers in merits). Seriously just level SAM or WAR and you'll have better damage output while not dying to every Fang Rush. And if this was at bird camp... even more reason to level one of those two and pick up a polearm.

Like Kellanved said a while back when he posted the parse with Richardd, him, and me: MNK/WAR can keep up, but the juice isn't worth the squeeze when you're eating 1k+ damage every TP move. I'd venture I can turn that ~3% over Rich into 6%, if he were still around, utilizing Provoke/Retaliation as I've recently been accustomed to.

I don't eat "1k+ damage every TP move," but thanks for exaggerating.

You play with guys like Richardd, who regularly participated here (and still does) in debates, so I'm not going to act like a fool and say you don't know what you're talking about. To a degree, you clearly do; I know you're an experienced player. Regardless, this coincidentally reminds me of the whole shock and horror everyone's experiencing in Elmer's question thread about JP COR/WHMs and their "slow and safe" merit PTs.

While someone who plays MNK could just level WAR or SAM -- and to be honest, many have -- they aren't such an MP sink as to actually slow down a merit PT. At least, not that I have ever experienced, and considering my comparatively mediocre equipment, I'd say I've a far greater chance of dying since our PTs' mobs tend to live several seconds longer. Obviously, if I was PTing with significantly better geared melee, I'd not be pulling hate enough to make this a valid point, but that's trailing off into semantics. So, let's stay on topic.

With Counterstance, Counter merits, and so on, so forth, a MNK/WAR can perform just fine in a PT with one or two healers (and in the case of "two," it's implied that one is a backup). I honestly couldn't tell you the last time I died in a merit PT, as I haven't in quite a while, and we're not out there getting something meidocre like chain #20.

I really would've thought this whole "MNK/WAR is a hopeless MP sink" mindset would've died off by now, particularly among the serious endgame community.

[Francisco]

The only weaponskills that do anywhere near 1000 damage in merits are Fang Rush and Mamool Ja "Rushing" moves - and that's with Counterstance up.

That said, no one bothers with Mamool Ja, at least no one I merit with. It's basically Colibri, Trolls or GTFO.

With Counterstance up, Overthrow does ~450 damage, and Pecking Flurry seems to cap out around 500. Nothing else is a threat - except Troll Puppets... those can really hurt... but you can just be conservative on those and let the WARs deal with them.

[Kohan]

The only weaponskills that do anywhere near 1000 damage in merits are Fang Rush and Mamool Ja "Rushing" moves - and that's with Counterstance up.

That said, no one bothers with Mamool Ja, at least no one I merit with. It's basically Colibri, Trolls or GTFO.

Pretty much. This goes without saying, but since I already feel this discussion shouldn't be necessary, I guess I'll add it in: any intelligent player is going to sub for damage mitigation (e.g., /NIN) if they know the PT can't efficiently handle them being /WAR, /SAM, whatever.

But the majority of endgame players I've encountered would specifically avoid those PTs because there tends to be something "weak" about them (unless they're an exception, such as an LS-based group of friends). Once again, plenty of discussion on that is going on in Elmer's JP question thread, just as it's gone on in other places a billion times before...

[Francisco]

From top to bottom: WAR/SAM, Me, COR, WAR/SAM...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...rse2masked.jpg

Camp was the far troll camp in Mt.Zhayolm.

[Gadritan]

ok?

Edit: Like, what point are you trying to make with this parse <.<?

[Francisco]

That MNK can parse with WARs and SAMs?

Is this more relevant?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...x/hexa2017.jpg

[Cream Soda]

oops nvm