DD Potential Discussion from Media

[Gadritan]

Okie dokie. Was just wondering since there wasn't any explanation. I didn't know if it was to show MNK can outparse a WAR/SAM, or that a WAR/SAM can outparse a MNK and everything in between, lol.

[Sanjiyan]

Interesting how the single howling fist you did was higher than the average from asuran. Perhaps howling fist should be the default WS to use for trolls.

[Berdysh]

OK, we all know that WAR/SAM and SAM/WAR are fantastic DDs, yada yada yada, but this is how I see it. I'll describe my in-game life first, so people understand where I'm coming from before jumping on my conclusions.

My situation: I am in a small LS that does low-man events. Most things I come BLM or COR to (I feel the need to clarify that the TP gear set Max posted for WAR on the previous page is identical to mine minus the Dusk +1... Leather 76 and rising. My WS set ups are even more fine tuned, with HQ heca missing legs/head, and no Cerb +1). We do Limbus, zeni, Salvage, some sea, a little bit of Dynamis (not for currency, but for targeting certain AF)... group has about 10, 12 people. Anything we don't use PLD to tank is done with BLU and MNK, and we use BLM and RNG as our main sources of damage when warranted... out of AoE range, and big bang for the buck as far as TP feeding goes (only matters on a few things). We only have two people with SAM at 75, neither main jobs, so what we do in game to win does not reflect what I am about to say.

As well, my SAM is 37 as a support job, and I have no interest in finishing it. Aside from THF, which fills a void, I don't see the point of having more than one melee job leveled. Even I can see how much more a SAM has to offer in most situations than a WAR, though. People are talking about how close they are in damage, and how 'equally geared' SAM and WAR (and other jobs) will be better at one thing over the other. The problem is that any SAM can get free weaponskills, free skill chains, and can do it at intervals that allow for it to break most in-game situations. WAR needs a steady stream of mobs to TP on, even /sam, and that doesn't happen anywhere outside merits and Einherjar. Most events are stop and go, stop and go, which makes the cool down on a SAM's meditate obsolete, while a WAR will gain nothing in the between time.

There are times when a WAR meleeing on a mob will be sustained for periods of time that would equal this out, but in most of those situations, having a SAM stand out of range and Meditate every time they can is more efficient (or a PLD stand there and Atonement, but that's not the point). It's easier on the tanks, easier on MP... it reduces most of the risks associated with meleeing to a minimum. This isn't even considering the fact that the times a SAM does go in to weapon skill, they can perform skill chains without the aid of another melee.

I'm also completely ignoring the fact that SAM can be a capable a tank based on it's own native job abilities and gear access, regardless of support job. A WAR attempting to tank will almost always be restricted to /nin. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it does limit potential damage, as compared to a SAM/WAR. The SAM/WAR can play aggressively regardless of the situation, while the WAR/SAM can... pop Defender (f. no)? Ride out a couple hits on 3rd Eye and Seigan? We all know that 3rd Eye/Seigan from /sam is nothing compared to the full on SAM main. Then you get SAM/NIN, which gets to ride hasted recast timers as well as having the 'fallback' of switching over to 3rd Eye and Seigan (I might be wrong on how #rd Eye/Seigan effect Ninjitsu recast timers, I assume that as long as they are not up when you cast shadows, the recast of shadows will be unaffected? As in, you can 3rd Eye, Seigan, anticipate, get hit, cancel Seigan, cast shadows with regular timers?).

So yes, SAM might be very close to equal when you get right down to it for damage potential, even tied with a few other jobs at various other things, but SAM has access to some of the very best job abilities in the game, with no restrictions. The next nearest competitor becomes a burden in situations where the SAM actually does start to pull ahead. They can be a full on DD, tank, stand out of range and time WSs to avoid feeding TP... anything 'DD" could want to do, they can do. The advantages they have are without sacrifice.

I remember once somebody said that the only problem with WAR main was that they could not sub WAR... this is it. This is the nail on the head. Yes, WAR might be a bit better than SAM on 'smaller' things, where a multi-hit weapon skill and a better chance at the crit modifier playing a factor make a difference, but once you start fighting harder and harder things, if you had to choose between a WAR or a SAM, and could make the choice? The shear utility of SAM outweighs any advantage WAR might have in some situations. It fits better with more strategies than any other heavy DD job.

So yeah, that's my two cents. It's an unfortunate standpoint, because I am sitting on the currency for a Bravura, but can't see any purpose in completing it outside my own satisfaction.

No, WAR main actually benefits beautifully from /SAM, and, of the two DDs, is the only job that can cap physical haste while keeping Berserk. It's true that the two jobs shine in different situations, take Einherjar for example; Warrior is a monster DD in T3, while SAM/THF rips Odin to shreds. Both are equally important, as most of the difficulty in farming Odin efficiently is getting there consistently. With regard to DD tanking, there is not an enormous difference between the two, and filling this role in Salvage, Limbus and Dynamis is mostly a wash. They both get seigan + TEye, as well as Defender, with the difference being Samurai wears Arhat's Gi and Head while a Warrior is going to stick with Koenig or god gear unless/until they obtain Valhalla wear. Your potential Bravura + Retaliation gives Warrior a slight edge, if anything, because of the aftermath.

I'm not sure why SAM's ability to meditate out of range and run in for WS is of much advantage to someone with BLM and COR, as well. With those two jobs, you can pretty much afford to roll out Samurai or Warrior only in situations where melee shine, anyhow.

[TybudX]

Disregard the fact that I have BLM and COR to fall back on. Pretend that every LS in the game could only take one type melee DD to every single event. Which do you think would be the preferred option?

[BerenTebogo]

I'm going to say this in complete and total earnest:

If you can't think of a wide array of applications for Bravura in all aspects of FFXI up to and including HNMs and Wyrms then you probably should not be upgrading it.

[FailureMidgard]

Interesting how the single howling fist you did was higher than the average from asuran. Perhaps howling fist should be the default WS to use for trolls.

Or it's possible he ended up at 200 tp due to having to afk for 1 mob or something random, and Howling scales with TP better?

But, he has conclusively proven that WAR/SAM is a better job than WAR/SAM imo!


And Sath, I got your point, I'm just quite irritated at a bunch of things being tossed around in this thread, like Sams not scaling with upgrades/etc.

[BerenTebogo]

NP BABAY

[richardd]

I really don't think MNK/WAR has a place in meripo unless you're trying to prove something. Even with elite gear, you're just an above average DD with no defense against a mob's WS (pretty much the only real killers in merits). Seriously just level SAM or WAR and you'll have better damage output while not dying to every Fang Rush. And if this was at bird camp... even more reason to level one of those two and pick up a polearm.

Like Kellanved said a while back when he posted the parse with Richardd, him, and me: MNK/WAR can keep up, but the juice isn't worth the squeeze when you're eating 1k+ damage every TP move. I'd venture I can turn that ~3% over Rich into 6%, if he were still around, utilizing Provoke/Retaliation as I've recently been accustomed to.

pfft! whatever mr super PL!

i wouldnt have died 2x from a fang rush if i had some spam cures from a red headed mithra rdm all the time! i wasnt even 1 shotted! i had HP merits boyeeee :D. id say my mnk took around the same dmg my war did most of the time. 90% of the dmg came from firespits. the counters from full usu was sex, thats why i voked like hell before i started slacking off with you and watching football good times!

haha, naw i agree though. even if i did only have 4 h2h at the time, with 8, i dont see mnk surpassing my war or even sam which was arguably my strongest job. if that even matters anymore. i lvl'd all those DD jobs based on what mood i was in and what i felt like playing. not because "one was stronger than the other" playing war or sam all day would become mundane and boring. my next job was gonna be drg lol.

[TybudX]

What I'm saying is that if I was given the choice between a WAR or a SAM, I would pick the SAM. Assuming equal gear in all situations and equal skill, if I could only pick one for every event, I would pick SAM. If you gave both nothing but the absolute best-of-the-best- gear with Relic and HQs and fully merited BRDs with Marches and Minuets and Madrigals and COR's rolls on top of that, I would pick SAM. It just does more than WAR can in situations where melee damage is normally not the best solution, and it's comparable in every other aspect.

And I'm not-not getting Bravura because 'I think SAM is better', or because I can't think of a reason to use a Bravura WAR in almost any event. I'm not getting it because I don't think it will change the amount of fun I have on WAR for the few things I still use it on. What am I going to do, get epeen numbers in Nyzul? Oh wait, I know, I get all giddy and shout with glee when I get a double proc on a bee! Take that, nameless drone #6498! Yeah... no.

[PeaceNLove]

I don't eat "1k+ damage every TP move," but thanks for exaggerating.

You play with guys like Richardd, who regularly participated here (and still does) in debates, so I'm not going to act like a fool and say you don't know what you're talking about. To a degree, you clearly do; I know you're an experienced player. Regardless, this coincidentally reminds me of the whole shock and horror everyone's experiencing in Elmer's question thread about JP COR/WHMs and their "slow and safe" merit PTs.

While someone who plays MNK could just level WAR or SAM -- and to be honest, many have -- they aren't such an MP sink as to actually slow down a merit PT. At least, not that I have ever experienced, and considering my comparatively mediocre equipment, I'd say I've a far greater chance of dying since our PTs' mobs tend to live several seconds longer. Obviously, if I was PTing with significantly better geared melee, I'd not be pulling hate enough to make this a valid point, but that's trailing off into semantics. So, let's stay on topic.

With Counterstance, Counter merits, and so on, so forth, a MNK/WAR can perform just fine in a PT with one or two healers (and in the case of "two," it's implied that one is a backup). I honestly couldn't tell you the last time I died in a merit PT, as I haven't in quite a while, and we're not out there getting something meidocre like chain #20.

I really would've thought this whole "MNK/WAR is a hopeless MP sink" mindset would've died off by now, particularly among the serious endgame community.

Whoa, whoa, whoa lol. Sorry if I wasn't articulate, but being an MP sink was NOT the reason I don't like MNK/WARs in my meripos. If anyone is the biggest MP sink, it's usually me unless a certain Bravura WAR on my server is meritting with me, so I play a RDM account (my brother's account, Bigfreakinlion) on a Laptop nearby to throw out a lot of extra heals - not App curebot btw, everyone seems to think it is! I think my record with cures in meripo is around 65000 HP to the RDM in party and 55000 to my RDM.

This generally allows, encourages even, fulltime Hasso from all DDs except on Skoffins. Anyone smart is gonna pop Seigan/TE if he knows he's about to pull hate on a Skoffin. A MNK/WAR is just gonna eat whatever comes with 20 defense, and if it's fang rush, there's a good chance that you're boned. I guess my only argument is that you're not parsing well when you're dead, and hell, you weren't even parsing that well to begin with on MNK/WAR. Exp/hr also takes a dive, though not by much since continuing with 2 DDs isn't a problem.

pfft! whatever mr super PL!

i wouldnt have died 2x from a fang rush if i had some spam cures from a red headed mithra rdm all the time! i wasnt even 1 shotted! i had HP merits boyeeee . id say my mnk took around the same dmg my war did most of the time. 90% of the dmg came from firespits. the counters from full usu was sex, thats why i voked like hell before i started slacking off with you and watching football good times!

Lol, that may be true, but sometimes you just can't stop the un-countered Double Attack to Fang Rush/Rushing Slash/Rushing Stab/what have you, and it generally deals a lot more damage to you than to non-counterstanced melees, increasing the likelihood of death despite MNK's high HP levels.

That was really the party that got me thinking about MNK/WAR. It was a fairly impressive display, but the deaths really turned me off of it. Every one I've partied with, which was only like 3 though on multiple occasions, has a death or two to show for it. Even with my PL, I'll prolly never bring my MNK/WAR to merits, though I'm tempted after recently completing my Usu set. It was all in good fun though. I won't refuse a good MNK/WAR in merits, but I'd prefer they come WAR or SAM if possible because I like to maximize efficiency, i.e. exp/hr.

[PeaceNLove]

That said, no one bothers with Mamool Ja, at least no one I merit with. It's basically Colibri, Trolls or GTFO.

Wow, seriously? Is that the general consensus server-wide? At the risk of sounding elitest, you are really missing out on some good exp at Jade camp. It's a consistent 32k/hr with a great party, and close to 37k with an optimal setup. Trolls are what everyone used to resort to when all the better camps were taken, lol.

[Vail]

the troll camp comment caught me off guard, really thought people only do trolls when all other camps are taken and they just want something with sanction still.

[richardd]

trolls can be pretty good. but i always prefered jade. its what we call the "big boy's camp". only thing thats annoying is you need a brd thats super motivated. they exist, but dont come out that often lol.

but i respect that they would rather do trolls. hey, exp is exp. ill take anything as long as i get to hit stuff. toward the end, i never merited because i needed to, i actually found it fun. probably why i never de-lvl lol.

am i weird?!

[Kohan]

but i respect that they would rather do trolls. hey, exp is exp. ill take anything as long as i get to hit stuff. toward the end, i never merited because i needed to, i actually found it fun. probably why i never de-lvl lol.

am i weird?!

No, not really. I find meriting very exciting. Then again, not everyone is absolutely obsessed with squeezing out every possible point of damage with their setup. I'm never bored/not doing something. Always keeping track of timers, both the ability kind and my weapon delay, and then there's the mob's HP, and so on...

[Cream Soda]

Merits and buffers are all capped but i went to pt today just because the guy said I could go mnk/war. Had a blast, lol

[Fridell]

Motherfucker, my post got eaten.

[Max™]

It's a given that Sam has the advantage in HNM situations where you don't want to feed TP, so... Khimmy is out for most shells (but hell, I'd just go pull imps and TP on them > run back to Khim), but me, if I had a Bravura, I'd be trying to tank that big bitchy cat on War/Nin.

For basically the entire rest of the situations you find in the game, Sam and War are interchangeable. You will not win or lose because you had one and not the other, you'll perform virtually identically if you're a smart team player. Especially now that War has KJ for Light SC options.

Honestly though, for HNM level shit, if you gave me the choice between a decked War or Sam, or a decked Atonement spamming Pld... I wanna see a bunch of Paladins burn Faffles down with pink disco balls of doom.

Also, Trolls? Fuck that camp.

Jade is fun, but I like to camp right in the skoffin pile and just spin around murdering things that actually fight back.

How did that Just Dance song put it?

Russian Roulette is not the same without a gun
...and baby if it's love if it's not rough it isn't fun.

[BerenTebogo]

That's poker face. I can see how you'd get them confused since you can't read mine.

[Max™]

Oops, it is, I have just dance in my head cause it's so fucking catchy, but the "if it isn't rough it isn't fun" sums up how I like to merit.

I've never been killed by a Greater Colibri, never even felt in danger there...

I've been killed by a few skoffins and a couple mams, best was a 1000+ Penta to which I quip as I'm falling down "...loldrg indeed, he says".

It's usually when shit goes really bad, like people WS to kill the previous mob, we turn to a skoffin, I unload on it, it uses that para shit, it paralyzes a third eye just as everyone else is about to WS again, then drive/fang WSes me into the dirt.

[Gustave]

We turn to a skoffin, I unload on it, it uses that para shit, it paralyzes third eye but then the drk stuned and then weapon bashed so everyone could WS and kill it. So no one died.

Fixed.