DD Potential Discussion from Media

[Drace]

I have to admit, I have also been extremely unimpressed with Apoc. (speaking from a merit perspective) and am still trying to figure out why people seem to pour praise on it so much. Maybe I just haven't merited with a top of the line Apoc user yet, as the 3 I have merited with on my server were 10-15% behind my SAM, and ~12% behind my DRG (yes at birds) - for the record, I am 95% Seigan for SAM merits, and the one time I parsed against one on DRG was the day I dinged 75 and was 9 lvls under polearm-cap w/ zero DRG/Polearm merits. Each of these were well equipped Ebody/ Homam DRK's too.

Yes it seems fantastic for situations outside of merits, but I have yet to be impressed with its merit potential. I am sure some of the extremely well geared/ aggressive Apoc players could shift my opinion some, (read: I recognize that my sample size of experience with Apocs @ merits is small), but I certainly haven't met one yet

As for abusing Hasso because you have a CureIV WS - that might work fine for birds, in a typical Mamool pty however you are still likely to be a gigantic MP sink and won't be utilizing your highest dmg WS.

/shrug

[Fridell]

Apoc isnt overrated, Amano is and so is SAM, dont get me wrong, I have SAM leveled, and I use it alot, and I like it, but yea, overrated.

[Max™]

Apoc's get better with the buffs/DD's they're teamed with/micromanagement.

There is a lot of mathematical potential there, so it's a question of riding everything as hard as you can.

Nonetheless, don't underestimate a self healing DD, in a top end merit party you can go balls out and hasso most of the time already.

Being able to replace "most of the time" with "what, me, seigan?" is the key.

When I merited with a couple of really good Sams a few months back, the killspeed was up high enough that we could all use Hasso for longer and longer periods of time as we got used to the dynamic of the party.

I know that with how well War and Drk fit together (naturally similar TP rates, lots of incidental skillchain options) in merits, putting an Apoc in with a Sam is totally different than putting one in with an Ebody War.

[Drace]

Apoc isnt overrated, Amano is and so is SAM, dont get me wrong, I have SAM leveled, and I use it alot, and I like it, but yea, overrated.

I have 75 DRK and I use it alot, and I like it, but yea, overrated.

See how easy that was?

See how pointless that was?

From my personal experience as an Amano SAM meriting with EBody Apoc DRKs, I have never seen one w/i 10% of my parse.

Facts based on my personal experience: Apoc is overrated for merits.

Could I change my opinion if I had the chance to merit with a very aggressive/ well geared Apoc DRK that matched/ beat me? Yes, I would sure as hell tip my hat to them and enjoy the merits this pty likely just steam-rolled through.

[Raen Ryong]

Why does everyone think DRK is weaker than SAM in general situations? SAM is overrated.

Quoting what I posted before,

Presuming the SAM is using a 450 delay GKT and the DRK Perdu Sickle/Moliones;

- Both weapons are a 6hit WS build, difference in WS frequency is roughly 10%~ before Meditate etc assuming you WS exactly at 100% each time and don't overflow
- DRK produces more damage during the TP Phase and in a medium-high buff situation, more damage per WS (not more overall WS damage) due to Y/G/K's effectiveness "capping out" whereas Guillotine's potential continues to soar higher.
- Both have Meditate though SAM's is a lot more potent, add to SAM's WS frequency advantage.
- SAM has 3/5 minute Berserk, DRK has 3/5 minute Diabolic Eye.
- DRK is capable of having +25% Attack and be practically at the Haste cap for 30 seconds every 4:10, dealing incredible damage in that time.
- Souleater; impractical to use all of the time, but situationally can be powerful.

And a load of other factors; I don't see how people can categorically say SAM > DRK on a mob where 1h WS isn't dominant and is not piercing weak.

Berserk is a large advantage for SAM yes, and helps to patch up the DoT gap a bit... however, DRK has Attack Bonus in comparison which is nowhere near as good as Berserk but makes the difference less striking, and most of the time Berserk won't do ANYTHING for your weaponskills - the MAIN part of your damage.

[Gadritan]

Properly geared and merited with a player that has a brain, DRK can be one of the best DDs for endgame activities. Once my drk was finished, it was preferred for endgame activities over my WAR as it performed better overall. DD isn't just about numbers.

Being capped on merits for all my jobs, I could really care less how Scythe vs GS does on little crap like birds. There's also the fact that if I need to merit, I do it right and change to WAR.

GS > Scythe for big stuff. Was DRK/SAM. Not crazy high, but pretty decent for /SAM and low TP%. And if you're thinking "wtf Ground Strike," I get bored and mix it up.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g1...tan/GScrop.jpg
And no, I didn't just suicide for big numbers. If you have exceptional DDs, you better have exceptional tanks. Which I did. Lived np after that one.

Having me on DRK/SAM with 5/5 Dark Seal and a SAM with capped shikikoyo to duo damage with, WS frequency was quite high. Not to mention I was able to make things go a little more smoothly sharing stun with our only rdm/drk. I'll take an exceptional DRK over a WAR and in many instances over a SAM any day when low manning things. If you're in one of those LS that has so many members you nearly always have a full ally, yeah, damage is all that matters. But when your LS kills hnms with typically 5-12ppl, you start to really pay attention to what the various DD jobs can offer outside of pure damage, as it actually matters then.

Yes, most DRKs fail horribly. But don't point the finger at the job, it's the idiots that don't know how to use it that make it seem so fail.

I know this is an argument I'll never win. But I still have to put in my 2cents for piece of mind. <3 DRK.

[Max™]

Gad is absolutely correct that meriting is not the end all be all of the game. That's also why I am usually War/Nin and tanking shit if I'm not on Pld or fucking around DDing in random shit like Dynamis with a fun sub.

Damage dealers are a dime a dozen, Gad taught me that. It doesn't matter if you can do bajeezus dmg to colibri, it doesn't even matter if you can do bajeezus dmg to HNM's.

Can you make a useful SC?
Can you tank?
Can you stun?
Can you do something besides just poke at things?

Drg doesn't do much well besides poke at things and Angon, so it's good that they made it excel at the poking stuff part finally.

Drk may not do the most damage in merits, or put up the highest numbers outside of a zerg, but they have utility without their weapon drawn. As does Sam due to meditate giving 0 TP to the mob (besides the incidental WS tp).

[Gadritan]

Drk may not do the most damage in merits, or put up the highest numbers outside of a zerg, but they have utility without their weapon drawn.

That's the best way I've heard it put right there and it's so true. DRK can make or break a fight without ever even engaging. How many other DDs can do that?

[Rikura]

For those who say DRK offers more than just damage, I think you're grasping at straws to try to portray them as "better DDs". Plain and simple, WAR/SAM and SAM/WAR offer higher damage output on most things; I couldn't care less (*the correct way to use this phrase imo, but that's another topic) about stun, or dark magic. Sure, it can be handy sometimes, but it doesn't mean you output greater damage. In any cases where I need stun, it's provided by support--half the game is about preparation, so my group is generally going to have stuns anyway (be it BLM or RDM/DRK).

And especially in low-man situations, I'd take a SAM or WAR over DRK. Why? Because they can all tank just the same--they each have their own ups and downs--and in that case, I'd want the one doing more damage over the one with cool tricks. The sooner the mob dies, the better.

But in the end, what does it matter? People will have their biases and inferiority/superiority complexes. In the unending (well I guess it was ended after the 2H update) topic between WAR/NIN and MNK/WAR, people flung crap at each other but it was mainly over their own preferences. People will like one job over the other and it'll never be put to rest which is the "best." Best is a different definition, but higher DD potential, the topic at hand, is simple to me--WAR or SAM. As it's been said before, have a DRK with the same gear and playing mentality play as WAR or SAM, and they're bound to do more damage just because of how those jobs and their respective WS work.

As I prefer WAR or SAM, another might prefer DRK. As long as you get the job done, then it doesn't matter that much who has the higher damage potential. And yeah, I haven't been impressed by Apocalypse. I bet KC RNG rapes faces on birds anyway, making all this hullabaloo about meritting on birds kind of silly.

[Kirschy]

Apoc is more misunderstood than overrated.

Cata is a relatively weak WS compared to some others. Until more alternate gear is released, most relic scythe users agree that Cata spam works best. If this were to change, and Guillotine could be used without dropping below capped Eq Haste, Apoc DRKs could parse even higher.

Apoc needs heavy buffs to shine in merit party. Lack of haste or attack buffs makes the playstyle fall short. This is often misconstrued as Apocalypse or DRK being weak. Also, needless to say, there are many players who don't utilize the weapon to the full potential. (I have no trouble admitting that I needed to alter my playstyle before I got better returns from the Scythe.)

While Cata's healing properties don't help your personal parse directly, they do help ease MP for the party and allow your other DD to ride strong JA longer. (Hasso, Souleater, Counterstance, etc...)

I parse often, and I've meritted at most camps and against various Relics. While I haven't lost a parse in forever, I don't have any delusions that Relic DRK is some super job. When it comes down to trying to compare the parsing output of different jobs/relics, there are too many factors to get a clear answer. I do put (good)Relic DRKs in the top catagory of merit players though.


On a general note, I have very well geared SAM and WAR. While anyone can try and prove the damage output of one DD being slightly better than another, in practice they're both equal and come with different advantages. Saying either SAM, DRK, or WAR aren't "real DD" is just ignorant. I can go buy an AH Scythe for my DRK and complete any event in FFXI on any of those three jobs with finese and efficieny. When I gear up for an event, 90% of the time I'll swap to whatever job I feel like playing that day because they all offer the same in terms of a DD job. A well geared and played SAM, DRK, and WAR all belong in the same tier as DD.
(If this thread is about minor efficiency/output differences between the job, than I apologize and you can ignore what I said.)

[Max™]

Apoc's get better with the buffs/DD's they're teamed with/micromanagement.

Looks like Kirschy and I agree.
:D

It's all moot anyway, none of those "pure" DD's are shit compared to a smart and well geared Atonement Pld.

Go change to Bard and march/ballad me, I've got shit to kill!

[Rikura]

As long as they're a 2hander, they're all on the same tier to me. But there will always be bias as to which is ever so slightly better amongst the top tier. My bias is obvious, but it's basically all the same shit. Thus, this debate will be never-ending!

[Marcicus]

Bravura WAR for supreme DD in this game. Rukenshin said it so it must be true amirite?

i wish;;

[Knyghtmayre]

I really don't know what this thread is supposed to accomplish, but it's certainly not to say that all 3 jobs are exact equals.

The fact that Apoc takes a mindblowing amount of time, effort, and gil to obtain, it is overrated. The fact that someone like me can start a char in December and parse on par (or more accurately above) pretty much anyone I've come across on Fairy is really ridiculous. And no, stunning doesn't have anything to do with DD potential, neither does their ability to absorb shit other than TP.

For lowmanning HNMs/events at which stuns aren't present, yeah come DRK. Stuns will save an alliance at Cerb, this isn't a debate about that. This is a pure debate about the raw potential of the 3 jobs, and which can excel under the worst and best conditions. SAM can take advantage of a shitty merit group, and it can certainly take advantage of a great one.

The game may not be all about "OH SHIT I CAN DO MORE DMG THAN YOU BAWWWWWW," but fuck it, how else do you grind through 165 merits for your first job? You have to at least try to care about it and rationalize it as being something that matters, because to a certain degree it does. But if it takes a Relic DRK to parse against a Tomoe SAM, then really, what's the argument?

[Raen Ryong]

SAM and DRK are different. DRK requires good buffs (attack/accuracy/haste) to be high potential whereas SAM's damage starts a lot higher (due to Y/G/K) ... but also ends lower than DRK's, meaning in a medium-high buff situation they are pretty equal.

Polearm is basically the same requirements as DRK above (minus the necessity for high-haste), but on non-piercing weak mobs you will be suffer, mainly from an accuracy/attack deficit.

SAM starts out strong due to Y/G/K's attack boost, the fact you can accomplish much with comparatively limited gear does not mean that SAM > DRK.

I see so many egotistical SAMs around, and why? SAM does not own the world. Get over it.

[Max™]

Yes, the point is in fact that the jobs offer different things.

Sam can get TP without touching a monster, and make whatever SC you want, by itself even.

War can put up bigger numbers, but requires something to hit for TP, basically the same SC options now with KJ, Tomahawk is an interesting bonus.

Drk has to pick the benefits of one or the other sub, putting it behind War/Sam and Sam/War in raw damage output potential, but Drk is useful besides raw damage.

All three excel in zerging, Drk flies away into the lead obviously with the right weapons.

All three excel at tanking in various situations, Sam having great PDT options and innate Seigan/Third Eye to fall back on, War having access to most of the top end tanking gear and using raw damage to keep hate, and Drk can do something neither can. Without drawing their weapon, a Drk/Nin can build and cap hate on a monster.

They shouldn't all be exactly the same in potential and playstyle, what the fuck would be the point?

[GeneJackit]

SAM is too much the "flavor of the year" imo...at least DRK is kinda cool (if emo) and WAR is just a lot of fun...

it all comes to play style, but I guess w/ EVERYTHING being equal SAM is gonna come out on top....but things are never equal, so I guess it really comes down to which job is better geared/better played

[Shinryuu]

Why the fuck would one job need more or less haste? Haste simply acts as a multiplier, and all jobs mentioned get meditate.

[Gadritan]

And especially in low-man situations, I'd take a SAM or WAR over DRK. Why? Because they can all tank just the same

So you think SAM and WAR tank "just the same," as a DRK. That's kind of like saying that PLDs and NINs tank "just the same." Seriously. Think people. Think.

I guess if you ignore homam, b.mask, dread spikes, absorb-tp, stun, an innate bash, drains, IR gear (war can wear that at least), w.legs...Hell, if you ignore everything DRK has at it's disposal for tanking I could see your point.

My bet is, you've never seen a DRK with the proper gear and experience tank anything before. It's pretty impressive. The right DRK can solo tank pretty much anything out there np.

Admittedly I haven't seen any real tanking on anything worth noting by a SAM other than Cerb, and that didn't end too well. I believe that with the right gear and experience a SAM can tank just as well as a DRK, I just haven't seen it yet. Not on any hnms that is. One of the major draw backs I can see though is that you'd need to stay engaged to maintain hate. Something a DRK doesn't have to do as they have a wealth of hate tools at their disposal. That also defeats the whole purpose of using a SAM to begin with.

WAR, eh, well. WAR just doesn't have as much to offer as far as damage mitigation as a SAM and DRK do. And don't bring up defender. It doesn't even come close to dread spikes or third eye when shadows drop. It also shares the same problem SAM has with needing to be engaged to be truly effective with hate management.


And as far as thinking that having a DD that puts out more damage is going to increase kill speed so much that it supersedes hate/mp/tp management is ridiculous. What the fuck are you fighting? LL? And I hope you're not drawing your conclusions from 12man fafs and khims and shit and actually thinking that's low-man.

[Shinryuu]

DRK is definitely the better tank.