Good Job Britain

[Beckwin]

Kuya has pretty much nailed it. I found similar figures when researching for past immigration topics... the state of California pulls a net profit off of the illegal immigrant population when you consider the necessary industries they support and sales taxes they pay. It overshadows the burden they put on social services.

[archibaldcrane]

The idea that "Americans won't work those jobs" is...kind of correct.

Americans won't work those jobs at those shit wages. This is what I mean by a completely distorted labor market. What is so special about farming that it doesn't have to pay what the market would require? What about construction, child care, housekeeping, etc? Noone wants to farm at $6/hour - that shit is brutal backbreaking work sometimes. It should pay more - whatever is required to, you know, do the work.

Why is everyone ok with certain industries having their wages completely gutted? As manufacturing declined in the 70's and still into today, blue collar jobs that pay decently and don't require education are increasingly hard to find. If you have to pay $20/hr to get Americans to farm your fields, build and repair buildings, take care of houses and kids - that becomes a legitimate stable option for a huge number of uneducated Americans.

Yes, food prices will go up when the labor market stops being artificially depressed. I know. What I don't know, is what happened to free market within a nation of laws. I find the current "solution" to be unacceptable.

Here's a list of occupations, followed by the percentage of that occupation that is made up of illegal immigrants:

Insulation workers 36%
Roofers 29%
Drywall installers 28%
Meat, fish, chicken processing 27%
Brick and stone masons 25%
Dishwashers 23%
Maids, housekeepers 22%
Cooks 20%
Laundry workers 15%

God forbid we have to pay what the market commands for certain services.

[Kuya]

The idea that "Americans won't work those jobs" is...kind of correct.

Americans won't work those jobs at those shit wages. This is what I mean by a completely distorted labor market. What is so special about farming that it doesn't have to pay what the market would require? What about construction, child care, housekeeping, etc? Noone wants to farm at $6/hour - that shit is brutal backbreaking work sometimes. It should pay more - whatever is required to, you know, do the work.

Why is everyone ok with certain industries having their wages completely gutted? As manufacturing declined in the 70's and still into today, blue collar jobs that pay decently and don't require education are increasingly hard to find. If you have to pay $20/hr to get Americans to farm your fields, build and repair buildings, take care of houses and kids - that becomes a legitimate stable option for a huge number of uneducated Americans.

Yes, food prices will go up when the labor market stops being artificially depressed. I know. What I don't know, is what happened to free market within a nation of laws. I find the current "solution" to be unacceptable.

Here's a list of occupations, followed by the percentage of that occupation that is made up of illegal immigrants:

Insulation workers 36%
Roofers 29%
Drywall installers 28%
Meat, fish, chicken processing 27%
Brick and stone masons 25%
Dishwashers 23%
Maids, housekeepers 22%
Cooks 20%
Laundry workers 15%

God forbid we have to pay what the market commands for certain services.

Nothing is done about it probably for the same reason "cramdown" failed.

[aurik]

Here's a list of occupations, followed by the percentage of that occupation that is made up of illegal immigrants:

Insulation workers 36%
Roofers 29%
Drywall installers 28%
Meat, fish, chicken processing 27%
Brick and stone masons 25%
Dishwashers 23%
Maids, housekeepers 22%
Cooks 20%
Laundry workers 15%

God forbid we have to pay what the market commands for certain services.

Well, for one, this would cause the California economy to run into a brick wall if implemented in any sort of timely fashion. There's a huge ripple effect with these types of labor: raise the labor prices, and the companies selling these services need to raise their prices in order to cover costs. Then, anyone who depends on those companies will also need to raise prices to cover their inflating costs. Etc, etc, etc. If you crack down on illegal workers in California, the net effect would be a whole bunch of businesses either folding or moving to a location where they can function at lower base costs in order to be competitive.

The unfortunate reality is that unskilled, uneducated labor should not pay well because there are literally billions people in the world who would be happy to scrape a living doing just that. If the minimum wage in a location is above the "market rate" for this type of work, then in the long term the jobs will just emigrate, and local unskilled workers will be unable to find any work at all, or at the very least, a lot of them will be competing for a very small pool of overpaying unskilled positions, further exacerbating the problem.

[Correction]

Americans won't work those jobs at those shit wages. This is what I mean by a completely distorted labor market. What is so special about farming that it doesn't have to pay what the market would require? What about construction, child care, housekeeping, etc? Noone wants to farm at $6/hour - that shit is brutal backbreaking work sometimes. It should pay more - whatever is required to, you know, do the work.

Paying riches to semiskilled labor worked out great for Detroit right?

[Demosthenes11]

Well, for one, this would cause the California economy to run into a brick wall if implemented in any sort of timely fashion. There's a huge ripple effect with these types of labor: raise the labor prices, and the companies selling these services need to raise their prices in order to cover costs. Then, anyone who depends on those companies will also need to raise prices to cover their inflating costs. Etc, etc, etc. If you crack down on illegal workers in California, the net effect would be a whole bunch of businesses either folding or moving to a location where they can function at lower base costs in order to be competitive.

The unfortunate reality is that unskilled, uneducated labor should not pay well because there are literally billions people in the world who would be happy to scrape a living doing just that. If the minimum wage in a location is above the "market rate" for this type of work, then in the long term the jobs will just emigrate, and local unskilled workers will be unable to find any work at all, or at the very least, a lot of them will be competing for a very small pool of overpaying unskilled positions, further exacerbating the problem.

I don't buy that for 3 reasons.
1) There aren't supposed to be these billions of people competing for these jobs in the first place. It's supposed to be people that live here. These jobs should never be viewed as an international competition - especially because 90% of these jobs can't be exported elsewhere (farming, maids, cooks, etc). Supply and demand tells us what would happen if these people were to suddenly vanish - demand lowers for those jobs at that wage, so wages go up. To compensate, everything is a little more expensive. In reality, all it does is cut into the profit margin of companies that are already making a killing off the cheap labor. i sure as well wouldn't pick lettuce for $5 an hour, but you know I probably would for $10-12 and health insurance. I'm not saying deport them all, but I think it's so wrong to assume the economy would be unable to survive without illegals.

2) The government overpays jobs ALL THE TIME. Ever go to the dmv and stand there in amazement at how stupid you can be and still make $20-30 an hour plus benefits ( I had a lady a while back add 25 and 16 on paper, carrying the 1 and everything) ?

3) My dad is a contractor (owns his own business developing homes in the sacramento area). He doesn't personally employ illegals, but a solid chunk of the companies that are hired for jobs on site are. He has told me that it would be so much cheaper (very risky though) to just hire the illegals. But he sticks with his uneducated workforce and pays them well + full benefits and is still able to turn a good profit - and it's a small business. This leads me to believe it would be possible for other businesses as well, though obviously not completely true for everyone.

I heard Kuya say this earlier and I just want to say I can't stand it when people look at the illegals and call them the victims. Nobody is forcing them here. America is the land of opportunity but we can't just bring in everybody that wants to come. The borders and the immigration policy is not a way to keep people out, it's to keep the high standards of wage for it's citizens. It's so the real citizens can have more things. I don't buy the stats (which I have yet to see) that illegals generate more than they cost because those don't have to be empty jobs if they are not there. The illegals aren't "exploited." If they felt that why they don't need to be here and take those jobs, but they do anyway. They found a niche that the system overlooks and they are more or less fine with it because they won't be citizens.

That was a lot of rambling but I just woke up ;(

[Kuya]

The illegals aren't "exploited." If they felt that why they don't need to be here and take those jobs, but they do anyway. They found a niche that the system overlooks and they are more or less fine with it because they won't be citizens.

I don't understand, so you'll have to expand. You're saying:

That they're not victims because they come to the US willingly.

That they're not victims because they're reaping the benefits of working in the US.

That if they felt exploited they wouldn't come here.

Seemingly, to you, being the target of immense racism and misplaced outrage does not make you a victim if you're benefiting from something, you'll have to explain this. You're also saying that they're not being exploited, because if they were, then they wouldn't come here. So if they come, they're not being exploited, and if they don't come, they're being exploited. This is a circular argument that you're going to have to justify in some way aside from using statement A to justify statement B and vice versa. You say that nothing is forcing them there, aside from poverty and positives prospects for the future, seemingly, to you, poverty is not enough of a justification to try and move to the US without documents, i wonder why. Finally, you, without justification, conclude that among the reasons that they might come to the US, poverty being one of them, that wanting to get out of poverty and have a better life is not worth being exploited. You seemingly make a personal value judgement without explaining why we should hold them to your personal judgement, and you apparently make unwarranted assumptions about their lives, because it seems to you that none of them had it bad enough where they used to be to warrant finding exploitation a more favorable situation. You need to explain a lot.

[Demosthenes11]

I don't see what difference it makes where they came from. USA can't be a country that has open arms for everyone. We can't just be like "oh, you had it bad before? oh let us bring you here np." If we did that, we would be completely bankrupt.

I just don't see how the system makes them a victim. They come here, they work cheaper than the law. How does this make them a victim. Age old analogy, but if I immigrate illegally to england, there's no way in hell am I going to be pissed if I can't find a job that pays well. They would owe nothing to accommodate me. I'm not a victim; nobody is.

[Kuya]

We can't just be like "oh, you had it bad before? oh let us bring you here np."

But that's not what you're doing, you even said it yourself, they're coming there on their own.

I just don't see how the system makes them a victim. They come here, they work cheaper than the law. How does this make them a victim. Age old analogy, but if I immigrate illegally to england, there's no way in hell am I going to be pissed if I can't find a job that pays well. They would owe nothing to accommodate me. I'm not a victim; nobody is.

I don't think you understood what i said. They are victims in so far as they are made scapegoats and at times abused by their employers, while the employers are rarely held accountable. It's a text book example of how the poor and the relatively weak always get the hits before anyone else. As for your analogy, well i don't get it. They're not pissed that they can't find jobs, they do find jobs, rather easily too, about 94%, the highest labor participation belongs to the undocumented, so i don't know why you're bringing that up. Maybe you're talking about the natives being angry that they can't get a job? I don't know.

[Demosthenes11]

I don't think you understood what i said. They are victims in so far as they are made scapegoats and at times abused by their employers, while the employers are rarely held accountable. It's a text book example of how the poor and the relatively weak always get the hits before anyone else. As for your analogy, well i don't get it. They're not pissed that they can't find jobs, they do find jobs, rather easily too, about 94%, the highest labor participation belongs to the undocumented, so i don't know why you're bringing that up. Maybe you're talking about the natives being angry that they can't get a job? I don't know.

Being a scapegoat doesn't make them a victim. They aren't being held accountable for breaking the law (not just a itty bitty law). The US policy is basically to ignore it for now - that's hardly making them victims. I blame the employers a ton for this too, yes. But I disagree that the illegals are taking a hit. There is no reason for these people to be given then same minimum wage as we are, nor is there any way to enforce it.

I wasn't saying they are pissed they can't find jobs, per se, I meant jobs that pay well. Illegals can't get the higher paying jobs because they are illegal. If I am in London illegally, there should be no reason I should be able to get any kind of good job.

People that should not even be here should not have the same rights we do in regards to employment. High wage is not a moral right or obligation.

[archibaldcrane]

Yes, if you snapped your fingers and deported or prevented illegal immigrants from working in California it would have a huge ripple effect. But we allowed it to get to this point, and we should work on unraveling the situation. This isn't the wild west here.

Arguing that "paying uneducated workers well didn't work for Detroit" is completely fucking missing the point. You -cannot- outsource most of these jobs - Look at the list I posted - the only thing on that list that could be somewhat effectively outsourced is "Meat/Fish/Chicken Processing". Construction jobs (the highest %s on the list), dishwashing, housekeeping - these are on-site only occupations. That's why some of them could be a viable alternative for blue-collar manufacturing that has been outsourced.

Arguing "well it would make stuff more expensive" isn't enough. Those things -should- be more expensive - using illegal immigrants is just cheating the market.

Kuya - yes, the workers are exploited by American standards, and vastly overpaid by central american standards. They are breaking the law in order to improve their quality of life. I don't get completely outraged because the employers are exploiting the workers, although it is unfortunate - I get outraged that they are illegally employing people - the rest is secondary to me personally.

If you think it is ok that illegal immigrants are a vital part of the nation's economy, then you are condoning this exploitation. If they weren't being exploited, and wages were normalized with non-exploitative legal standards and benefits, they wouldn't be nearly the vital part they are today. Anyone can pay the legal market rate and hire someone for an occupation, especially with unemployment in double-digits nationally - it takes an exploitative employer to suppress that wage to the point where only illegal immigrants will take the job.

[Correction]

Arguing that "paying uneducated workers well didn't work for Detroit" is completely fucking missing the point. You -cannot- outsource most of these jobs

Outsourced or not, it's a model where a dramatic rise in labor costs regardless of who has those jobs leads to financial ruin.

Yeah, let's inflate the cost of construction jobs so that we can...help...the housing market...or something.

[archibaldcrane]

Outsourced or not, it's a model where a dramatic rise in labor costs regardless of who has those jobs leads to financial ruin.

...The primary reason Detroit and other rust-belt cities went into financial ruin is because their jobs were outsourced.

Everyone can't have a college degree - this isn't Dubai where all menial labor will be performed by underpaid short-term immigrants. Why is everyone so committed to leaving high school grads without viable long-term stable employment options? The middle class should have room for blue-collar workers.

Expensive building costs has nothing to do with the housing crisis - there is an overabundance of cheap housing in America right now. Your analogies couldn't be more off the mark.

[Correction]

'kay, fuck specific examples.

So wait, higher wages means we can all afford to pay for the goods and services we need to keep the economy going...except that all those goods and services now cost much more than before because everyone now has a good paying job regardless of their education.

Shit.

[archibaldcrane]

Why should uneducated americans have to suffer due to wage depression from illegals, while the higher classes get to benefit from cheap goods due to illegals?

Why should uneducated americans not be paid what they are worth because of illegal activity gutting their professions?

Why do you advocate this illegal activity? Because it's convenient? Because it furthers your worldview that people who get an education should be paid more? Why should only certain occupations pay what the legal labor market demands, while others get completely fucked over?

I'm not saying "everyone should have a good paying job regardless of education" - I'm saying "every occupation should participate in the legal labor market, none should participate in the illegal labor market". Prices will adjust accordingly. Why are you such a strong advocate for illegal labor?

[Kuya]

Being a scapegoat doesn't make them a victim. They aren't being held accountable for breaking the law (not just a itty bitty law). The US policy is basically to ignore it for now - that's hardly making them victims. I blame the employers a ton for this too, yes. But I disagree that the illegals are taking a hit. There is no reason for these people to be given then same minimum wage as we are, nor is there any way to enforce it.

I wasn't saying they are pissed they can't find jobs, per se, I meant jobs that pay well. Illegals can't get the higher paying jobs because they are illegal. If I am in London illegally, there should be no reason I should be able to get any kind of good job.

People that should not even be here should not have the same rights we do in regards to employment. High wage is not a moral right or obligation.

It makes them victims of harassment and the targets of xenophobia. I have not argued that they should be payed more or that they deserve a higher wage (neither have they for the most part), i don't know where you're getting this, because i haven't even mentioned that they should be payed more.

Furthermore, a majority can't get higher paying jobs because the majority are unskilled labourers. I don't even know what you're saying at this point. Good job? What do you mean and why are you bringing this up? Again, they don't have the same rights as you, they are undocumented. You are speaking as if we've given them rights or higher wages. None of this has happened, so what are you talking about?

[Correction]

Why are you such a strong advocate for illegal labor?

I said this? God I must have been drunk. And logged in as someone else.

[Kuya]

Let me reiterate, because you are arguing nonsense.

Being a scapegoat doesn't make them a victim.

Except victims of scapegoating, obviously, and that is abuse.

There is no reason for these people to be given then same minimum wage as we are,

They aren't, why bring this up?

If I am in London illegally, there should be no reason I should be able to get any kind of good job.

They aren't getting good jobs. Assuming i know what you mean by good job.

People that should not even be here should not have the same rights we do in regards to employment.

They don't have the same rights as you, and i have never even argued to give them this.

[archibaldcrane]

I said this? God I must have been drunk. And logged in as someone else.

You are defending the current situation because it keeps prices on certain goods and services down.

The current situation is that certain industries employ a large chunk of illegal labor.

Yeah, you said it.

[Correction]

LOL. "I put words in your mouth that means you said it."

What I'm disagreeing with here is the notion that American's won't shovel shit for 6 dollars but they will for 12 dollars. Paying them 12 dollars is disincentive perhaps to hire more shit shovelers but not disincentive to hire illegal labor. Because you don't have to pay taxes on illegal labor. Enforcement starts at the top.