Good Job Britain

[archibaldcrane]

What I'm disagreeing with here is the notion that American's won't shovel shit for 6 dollars but they will for 12 dollars.

Some will. And if you need more shit-shovelers than you can find at $12, then you'd better up your wage again til more people will take the job.

That's how markets work. You adjust til you fill your need.

And yes, enforcement starts at the top, which is what I'm advocating - enforcement of labor laws.

[Demosthenes11]

It makes them victims of harassment and the targets of xenophobia. I have not argued that they should be payed more or that they deserve a higher wage (neither have they for the most part), i don't know where you're getting this, because i haven't even mentioned that they should be payed more.

Furthermore, a majority can't get higher paying jobs because the majority are unskilled labourers. I don't even know what you're saying at this point. Good job? What do you mean and why are you bringing this up? Again, they don't have the same rights as you, they are undocumented. You are speaking as if we've given them rights or higher wages. None of this has happened, so what are you talking about?

I was talkin about what I thought you were talkin about >.> I prolly misread, but if so then I don't see your argument. Why should they be above harassment and xenophobia? Is it not ok to ridicule the people that break the law and think "wow, what are you thinking" or even "scumbag" i can understand to an extent. I don't want to sit here and spout GOP nonsense but the number of illegal people in this country is just a huge effing risk that we shouldn't have to take. I can even understand xenophobia to an extend because there are a lot of communities, especially close to the border, where english speakers are the minority and classes are taught in both spanish and english - making the quality of education for the english speakers diminish. We are catering to them - people that shouldn't be here - over our own citizens. That sucks. Couple things like that with drug wars and shit down there - some fear and anger is perfectly understandable.

I'm not saying lets kill some hoto's or anything. But if 20 million people are breaking the law and receive no repercussions for it and it's hardly even being curbed, I think americans have the damn right to be angry.

[Kuya]

Yes, if you snapped your fingers and deported or prevented illegal immigrants from working in California it would have a huge ripple effect. But we allowed it to get to this point, and we should work on unraveling the situation. This isn't the wild west here.

Arguing that "paying uneducated workers well didn't work for Detroit" is completely fucking missing the point. You -cannot- outsource most of these jobs - Look at the list I posted - the only thing on that list that could be somewhat effectively outsourced is "Meat/Fish/Chicken Processing". Construction jobs (the highest %s on the list), dishwashing, housekeeping - these are on-site only occupations. That's why some of them could be a viable alternative for blue-collar manufacturing that has been outsourced.

Arguing "well it would make stuff more expensive" isn't enough. Those things -should- be more expensive - using illegal immigrants is just cheating the market.

Kuya - yes, the workers are exploited by American standards, and vastly overpaid by central american standards. They are breaking the law in order to improve their quality of life. I don't get completely outraged because the employers are exploiting the workers, although it is unfortunate - I get outraged that they are illegally employing people - the rest is secondary to me personally.

If you think it is ok that illegal immigrants are a vital part of the nation's economy, then you are condoning this exploitation. If they weren't being exploited, and wages were normalized with non-exploitative legal standards and benefits, they wouldn't be nearly the vital part they are today. Anyone can pay the legal market rate and hire someone for an occupation, especially with unemployment in double-digits nationally - it takes an exploitative employer to suppress that wage to the point where only illegal immigrants will take the job.

Actually, though some companies can't pay higher wages because they will get undercuted by imports from abroad, jobs that need to be done in the US, like construction, according Tamar Jacoby in Immigration Nation say: "it hardly makes sense to lure an American to a less productive job than he or she is capable of by paying more for less-skilled work." In fact, the people who do compete with immigrants are usually native born high school drop outs, but most economists say that the number affected is no higher than 10% of the labor force or that it has constituted a drop of worker's earnings of more than 5%. Furthermore, they also produce new jobs such as is the case of lawn care businesses and manicure parlors.

Further, i was not condoning their exploitation, i was arguing against the idea that they are leeches that they don't contribute a vital role in the US economy, and it could be argued that the reason that so much undocumented immigration exists is because the US has too low limits for visas and unrealistic laws. It is estimated that 1.5 million has been attracted by market forces each year, but the annual quotas admit only 1 million, so you need realistic limits here that line up with market labour needs. So you need more "temporary" worker visas that allow for a realistic and possible transition into citizenship if they so desire. The US currently issues around 5,000 visas when in reality it needs to issue around 400,000 to really sync in to demand. Look at the stark contrast, 5k to 400k, why is it then surprising that there are so many undocumented immigrants?

[Kuya]

Why should they be above harassment and xenophobia?

Are you really doing this right now?

edit: i think they have a right to be angry to, at the right people.

[fantasticdan]

But that's not what you're doing, you even said it yourself, they're coming there on their own.
I don't think you understood what i said. They are victims in so far as they are made scapegoats and at times abused by their employers, while the employers are rarely held accountable. It's a text book example of how the poor and the relatively weak always get the hits before anyone else. As for your analogy, well i don't get it. They're not pissed that they can't find jobs, they do find jobs, rather easily too, about 94%, the highest labor participation belongs to the undocumented, so i don't know why you're bringing that up. Maybe you're talking about the natives being angry that they can't get a job? I don't know.

How could anyone get a real statistic on that?

[Kuya]

How could anyone get a real statistic on that?

You really think the government doesn't know how many there are in the US (and you might well ask how they know there are 12 million in the US) and if they work or not?

Why should uneducated americans have to suffer due to wage depression from illegals, while the higher classes get to benefit from cheap goods due to illegals?

Why should uneducated americans not be paid what they are worth because of illegal activity gutting their professions?

The wage depression, as i've mentioned before, isn't as stark as you're making it out to be, less than 5%, and this is offset by the lower price in food and housing. And the problem of why they should not be paid what they are worth, assuming we're even sure what the labour is really worth, is because there are over a billion outside the US who will do it for cheaper, and you just can't efficiently fight this with companies who can go abroad (in fact you can also argue that immigrants, legal or illegal, keep companies in the US and therefore stimulate local economy). I already commented on work that is done in the US, but as you said, if you want them to stop using the undocumented, you'll have to have stricter labour laws, which the companies obviously lobby against.

[Demosthenes11]

Are you really doing this right now?

edit: i think they have a right to be angry to, at the right people.

why can't they be angry at both people that break the law? the employers and the illegals

[Kuya]

why can't they be angry at both people that break the law? the employers and the illegals

Sure, but let's stick to reality. They always attack the immigrants (documented or not).

[archibaldcrane]

We have people applying for janitor jobs for $12/hr with masters degrees. We have double digit employment. Americans are starving for jobs, and illegal immigrants are boasting a 94% employment rate?

How do we not see something wrong here?

[Demosthenes11]

Sure, but let's stick to reality. They always attack the immigrants (documented or not).

oh stop it. Republicans blame the illegals, democrats blame the employers. There's no right answer here; they are both to blame.

[Kuya]

We have people applying for janitor jobs for $12/hr with masters degrees. We have double digit employment. Americans are starving for jobs, and illegal immigrants are boasting a 94% employment rate?

How do we not see something wrong here?

I get the feeling that your conflating two somewhat unrelated issues. One issue is the recession and the effects it has on labour, it bares repeating that not all jobs are affected the same way. The second is the problem that has been an issue for a long time now of people with degrees finding it hard to actually find professional jobs that actually put their degrees to good use and instead are forced to temporarily job which they are over qualified for, so i see you are disingenuously mixing this issue with that. People with master's degrees not finding jobs is more related to issues which professional jobs and them not getting the chance to actually gain the experience in their desired profession (what in the world would low wage unskilled labour have to do with that?), and if you're saying that these people have a difficult time finding these totally menial jobs that they are over qualified for because there are immigrants taking them, then you're totally off the mark, as you should be arguing how to get these people with degrees hired for jobs relevant to what they spent years studying for. I already told you that immigrants largely compete with high school drop outs.

As for the numbers, the restaurant business, the nation's largest private sector employer has a demand expected to grow by 15% between 2005-2015, but the native born work force is only expected to grow 10% in that same period, and the number of job seekers between the ages of 16 and 24, the demographic for these restaurant jobs, is projected to hardly expand at all. It is disingenuous to try and paint the immigrant issue as the sole issue at play here. Considering that american wages for working to middle class have stagnated as of late while american production has actually grown somewhere between 3% to 5%, i think there are more things at work here than just immigrants.

oh stop it. Republicans blame the illegals, democrats blame the employers. There's no right answer here; they are both to blame.

The demographic currently most mobilized over the immigration issue are white, male, and lacking of college degrees, and the rhetoric they use is not one against the employers it is almost always against the immigrants. This isn't a strongly ideological issue, the Republicans and the Democrats are only responding to the that demographic, and companies lobbying against reform, but the debate and propaganda is strictly based on demonizing immigrants. Do not be coy with your contention that there's a right answer when in reality, and you damn well know this, the people receiving the blunt of the attacks are strictly immigrants, this is most clearly scapegoating and they are victims of racist and nationalistic movements using this as an excuse to let loose.

Let me repeat this again for you, the immigrants, including the "legal" ones, are also attacked by racist and xenophobic rhetoric, they are victims of these completely uneven blame games. There is no equal distribution of blame, the blame is focused on the immigrants. You can say how things should be till you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change what the reality is, and the reality confirms my point that they are the victims. The only way you have tried to refute this is the flimsy statement that the democrats blame companies too when anyone with eyes knows who gets attacked the most and most viciously, and you're other contention, the most absurd, was that they deserve it.

[Kuya]

Actually, you know what. I'd like to know what they are both to blame for. Immigrants and employers are seemingly breaking the law and the dangers that immigrants pose has been immensely inflated. Blamed for what? Breaking the law? Yea, they sure did it, but as i've already said, we know who gets singled out. The only thing that matters here is making the laws reflect reality and actually making laws that are respected. The mention that immigrants deserve the heavily racial and xenophobic attacks they get is idiotic, since there's plenty of people who break the law who don't get pulled into a witch hunt.

[archibaldcrane]

You say that illegal immigration largely only harms the job market for high school dropouts.

And?

High school dropouts are exactly the type of American uneducated populace that I am talking about when I bemoan "dey dook er joerbs!"-style. Those are the people who are not, as you quoted, capable of "higher skilled work", need these unskilled labor jobs, and need them to pay an appropriate wage. People without a high school diploma have the highest rate of unemployment of any group - in 2008 it was 9%, and I'm positive it's higher now.

There is one group of Americans that would benefit from a dramatic cut in illegal immigration: high-school dropouts. Most economists agree that the wages of low-skill high-school dropouts are suppressed by somewhere between 3 percent and 8 percent because of competition from immigrants, both legal and illegal. Economists speculate that for the average high-school dropout, that would mean about a $25 a week raise if there were no job competition from immigrants.

My master's degree janitor was a lark to point out the desperation of some unemployed people in the current market, nothing more.

I feel that illegal immigration hurts America's working poor the most, and everyone else gets to benefit because of lower prices. I understand that America's working poor are all but invisible politically, but that doesn't mean it's right or fair. Combine that with the unfair burden on medical facilities and unsafe roads and I don't really care if there is a slight net economic gain from the presence of illegal immigrants. It's not evenly distributed, and the burden falls on the poor. They are the victims here.

[fantasticdan]

You really think the government doesn't know how many there are in the US (and you might well ask how they know there are 12 million in the US) and if they work or not?

The government doesn't know there are 12 million illegal immigrants in the US, it's just an estimation based on census data, corrected based on an assumed percentage of false information. There's no reason to think that figure is accurate, the government even admits this, they often say an estimated range of 7-20 million.

And no, I don't think the government has any clue what percentage of illegal immigrants are working, because there's simply know way for them to know, or any way to even make a good estimate. Where did you find this statistic?

[Kuya]

You say that illegal immigration largely only harms the job market for high school dropouts.

And?

High school dropouts are exactly the type of American uneducated populace that I am talking about when I bemoan "dey dook er joerbs!"-style. Those are the people who are not, as you quoted, capable of "higher skilled work", need these unskilled labor jobs, and need them to pay an appropriate wage. People without a high school diploma have the highest rate of unemployment of any group - in 2008 it was 9%, and I'm positive it's higher now.

My master's degree janitor was a lark to point out the desperation of some unemployed people in the current market, nothing more.

I feel that illegal immigration hurts America's working poor the most, and everyone else gets to benefit because of lower prices. I understand that America's working poor are all but invisible politically, but that doesn't mean it's right or fair. Combine that with the unfair burden on medical facilities and unsafe roads and I don't really care if there is a slight net economic gain from the presence of illegal immigrants. It's not evenly distributed, and the burden falls on the poor. They are the victims here.

You do realize that immigrants who are legal also compete for these jobs, right? What are you proposing exactly? What level of unemployment is acceptable to you? It's almost as if you're advocating we assure that every American has a job, which some do argue should be a right, but if that's what you're saying that you need to say it outright. If it's not, you're going to have to justify why some different percentage of unemployment is acceptable. It's below 10% and native Americans are liable for unemployment benefits, so what percentage should it be? 5%? Why not 3%? 3%? Why not 1%? Is that even possible?

The problem with what you're advocating is that the 12 million immigrants without documentation are already here, and taking them all out would cause substantially economic harm, and you're not advocating for that. But making them US citizens still keeps them in competition with natives who are high school drop outs, it doesn't fix anything in regards to your contention. You could argue for better controls to keep the percentage of them who enter into the country down (and you somehow need to decide which amount the market needs without harming the native workers), but tighter enforcement has already been used and the percentage entering the country is still approximately the same (which is why the reformists argue that we need to allow the right amount in with visas instead of trying to keep them out, since there exists a demand that you cannot curve efficiently).

The government doesn't know there are 12 million illegal immigrants in the US, it's just an estimation based on census data, corrected based on an assumed percentage of false information. There's no reason to think that figure is accurate, the government even admits this, they often say an estimated range of 7-20 million.

And no, I don't think the government has any clue what percentage of illegal immigrants are working, because there's simply know way for them to know, or any way to even make a good estimate. Where did you find this statistic?

Foreign Affairs, Immigration Nation by Tamar Jacoby, you may have to register to see the document completely.

edit: actually, just google 94% illegal immigrants, the statistic is everywhere.

[aurik]

Yes, if you snapped your fingers and deported or prevented illegal immigrants from working in California it would have a huge ripple effect. But we allowed it to get to this point, and we should work on unraveling the situation. This isn't the wild west here.

I agree with you. But making dramatic changes quickly is just going to cause the situation to melt down, and that's not going to be good for anyone.

You -cannot- outsource most of these jobs - Look at the list I posted - the only thing on that list that could be somewhat effectively outsourced is "Meat/Fish/Chicken Processing". Construction jobs (the highest %s on the list), dishwashing, housekeeping - these are on-site only occupations. That's why some of them could be a viable alternative for blue-collar manufacturing that has been outsourced.

I'm not talking about outsourcing, I'm mainly talking about economic failure of companies that rely heavily on the products or derivatives of illegal labor. If you remove below-minimum farm workers, the price of California produce is going to be so high that barring tariffs, buying foreign produce will be far cheaper.

(That said, whose fucking idea was it anyway to irrigate a fucking desert state and start a farm industry, stupid stupid stupid!)

Drive up the cost of construction & nanny/maid/yardkeep work, and people will simply purchase less. Companies will stop employing people if they can't make ends meet, which they can't given the expectation of both consumer prices and minimum wage guarantees. So, economically speaking, you aren't creating more jobs for legal immigrants. You're simply circulating money slower: less work to be done -> less people earning money -> less money being spent on "stuff" -> lower demand for "stuff" -> less work to be done -> less people earning money ->...

Whatever needs to be done, and I agree that we should aim to eliminate illegal labor, needs to be done in a way that doesn't put us in the same economic death spiral that we fell into in 1930.

Things like preventing illegals from getting valid drivers licenses is just retarded though. Thanks, conservatives, now there's a ton of uninsured, untested drivers on the roads every time I drive to work!

[Demosthenes11]

are there any record at all when illegals are employed? What about a system where, for let's say 6 months, the US says "ok, register here and provide proof you are working and we will allow you to stay, but anybody we find unregistered after that there will be no mercy."

What % of illegals would actually register? Govt makes sure their wages go up when they are registered and makes sure companies don't fire them because of it. I'm just really unsure what to do about illegals found after that. Deportation is very costly. Whats the normal protocol?

Then again doing anything relies on the border not being a fucking joke. Should just put landmines or some shit down there.

[Jer]

Deportation is very costly. Whats the normal protocol?

Based on effectiveness, I would say:

1. Drive them back over the border.
2. Place a blindfold over their eyes.
3. Spin them around and around.
4. Take off while they are still disoriented.
5. Hope they don't find their way back.

[Gregorio]

Well this thread has been significantly derailed.